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#4292676 - 09/01/16 06:27 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: zaelu]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Originally Posted By: zaelu
Guys... if you have so little interest in ED forum... why so much trouble on multiple threads about their policy?


People wonder why the community who want ED to do well and realise their potential still have gripes.....this is one of the reasons why ED struggle to engage with their own customers.

Many of the community want to engage on the forums....but not when it's censored, when their opinions and discussions are edited, masked, deleted and users banned because the developers only want to hear and see what they think should be seen and heard.

What happens when/if more and more of their customers get fed up with the way their own message boards are handled? They lose customers, they lose money....they'll only have themselves to blame. No-one wants ED to fail, we have a high fidelity simulator with loads of potential - I'd much rather see ED change their ways and have the community behind them all the way.

ED release early-access products...who are the testers of their software? Their own test-team cannot hope to cover everything so ED are reliant in feedback from the community....why censor the input?


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
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#4292679 - 09/01/16 06:32 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss
it is a given that the worse you treat your costumers the less inclined they are to keep buying your products.

Ya don't say?!??! biggrin biggrin


wink

Originally Posted By: Paradaz


Many of the community want to engage on the forums....but not when it's censored, when their opinions and discussions are edited, masked, deleted and users banned because the developers only want to hear and see what they think should be seen and heard.


their forum hijacked their product reputation
- I've been saying that for a long time : all my disagreements start and end with that forum . While I was immersed in it, I never had any problems with their products.

#4292793 - 09/01/16 10:45 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
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@Ice

I don't know exactly what each of you were banned for but I know I was criticizing few times some things around there and all was OK. I might upset once Cobra from LNS ( biggrin ) and maybe the guys from VEAO don't like me in particular. But overall... I mostly got bad rep from "fanatics" than warnings from ED stuff.

However

I never started arguments about some detail on a aircraft or some thing about the game and fight around it until the ban hammer came. There are signs... "Word fencing" is like dogfight... Turn and burn is a no-no. You know the saying.. "live to fight another day".

You want to convince someone (and not just call him names)? It takes time and patience and maybe in the process you can discover it was you that was wrong all along or some other mix. Why... get banned? Unless you don't care but as it seems... is not really the case.

@Paradaz

I think you overestimate somethings in your judgment. As you can see... nothing happens. The Univers is indifferent smile .


Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss


their forum hijacked their product reputation


I don't believe such thing is true. I think is just another exaggeration and maybe you wish for it but... it's not like that. The forum has little "bad" influence on their product reputation. Mostly is a good thing because of the good things there are there. That is for the few that actually go to the forum and most of those few are not "cocked" for bad stuff.

Most of the "setbacks" in reputation are done by delays but that is reality of this world. We can whine about them but... that is pretty much all. This and limited technology for now... which is again... delays. If ED would made available a world wide map like Nevada and the rest of DCS... all of the so called problems with the forums would be wiped out like by a flood.


#4292810 - 09/01/16 11:23 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
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There is a difference between banned and posting rights revoked. Banned has neither read nor write while the other can read but not write.

You say "OK, but that makes no real difference because I can logout" but to a programmer it's not the same. It's possible to have forums which are only visible to a logged in user for example.

This isn't some 1984 sanitized language doublethink, just a different (and TBH better) method to achieve banning than what was done before.

#4292813 - 09/01/16 11:26 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: zaelu]  
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Originally Posted By: zaelu

Most of the "setbacks" in reputation are done by delays but that is reality of this world. We can whine about them but... that is pretty much all. This and limited technology for now... which is again... delays. If ED would made available a world wide map like Nevada and the rest of DCS... all of the so called problems with the forums would be wiped out like by a flood.



I don't agree with that at all....it's only reality or the 'norm' in ED's world, how come other companies can hit their deadlines and goals? How come ED always miss theirs, not by days, weeks or months but often by years?

If ED were to announce a Phantom, Harrier or Tornado (my 3 favourite aircraft) and stated it would be released in 2018, the first thing I would think of would not be how great it would be to fly one of those iconic airframes...it would be that ED would never hit 2018 in a month of Sundays. My first thought would be 'more like released in 2020 at the earliest'.....this is because for every single product they have released so far they have been massively late, and like I have said in other threads it becomes pessimism and not optimism whenever they announce anything.

I don't believe a word they say, I don't trust them and I have no confidence in them. There is absolutely nothing they have done since the release of Blackshark that makes me believe they are finally getting a grip with their estimating and have a realistic grip on how long development takes, how much risk is involved, when is a realistic timeframe and what they can achieve in the available timeframe. There has been no improvement, no sign they are learning from previous mistakes so why would anyone start to believe them now?


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4292818 - 09/01/16 11:33 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
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I got banned over a tech support issue on their insane forum.

My last rental that was in a mega military area I ended up with the same IP as some forum guy that got into issues ( I know, random as hell). When I logged in with my old account with my new IP address I ran into issues after about a month. Then talked to a certain well known ED person and got into trouble on 2 counts. First I got some wacko IP that a member was banned on and could not post. Came here and made what I thought was a funny post about getting it sorted. Then talked to MR. rude pants where I said F it, I see why the last guy got with that old IP address got banned. I am not use to being treated in such an unprofessional manner by a talking face of a company. So, uninstall and no more DCS for me.

BTW, last person living in that house was a Marine air craft mechanic. Funny thing was while I was never in the Marines (or Navy) we where both in Iraq at the same time on the same base. I was across the street in my units motor pool getting ready for a mission when a fire broke out in helicopter hanger about 550 meters up the road. He was like in that hanger. biggrin In the military, small worlds do happen. I guess that carries over to ending up living in military towns too.

Funny and funky as all hell. But that is what I get to moving to the out skirts of Navy/Marine land after I got out. Oh and insane forum..


BTW. I saved my support ticket. I use it as an example of what never ever to do. rofl

Last edited by FlashBurn; 09/01/16 11:55 PM.
#4292833 - 09/02/16 12:09 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: zaelu]  
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Originally Posted By: zaelu
I don't know exactly what each of you were banned for but I know I was criticizing few times some things around there and all was OK. I might upset once Cobra from LNS ( biggrin ) and maybe the guys from VEAO don't like me in particular. But overall... I mostly got bad rep from "fanatics" than warnings from ED stuff.

Haha... never been banned from ED as far as I can remember, but I was referring to the contributing members of the DCS community that nevertheless got the ban hammer for something that leaves more-rational people scratching their heads.

Maybe a person doesn't get banned if he's just a nobody making silly comments? Maybe once someone gains credibility or brings forward documents and evidence that highlights ED's flaws, once that someone can start making ED loose face, they set the trigger-happy ban moderators on them? Like I said, we're not entirely sure where the line is, or if there is any line at all!


Originally Posted By: zaelu
I never started arguments about some detail on a aircraft or some thing about the game and fight around it until the ban hammer came. There are signs... "Word fencing" is like dogfight... Turn and burn is a no-no. You know the saying.. "live to fight another day".

You want to convince someone (and not just call him names)? It takes time and patience and maybe in the process you can discover it was you that was wrong all along or some other mix. Why... get banned? Unless you don't care but as it seems... is not really the case.

I invite you to investigate why Snoopy and Noodle have recently been banned from the ED forums then. Time and patience? These guys have been in the community since FOREVER. I joined DCS A10C around Beta 3 or Beta 4, just after they took out the Nevada terrain. I know Snoopy was around at that time. That's a LOOOONG time ago. Credibility? I'm sure with a little searching, you'll know what those guys do for a living. If anyone can "word fencing" with ED regarding the A10, it's them!

Then there's Force10 and other users, both here and on Reddit and other forums that have been banned from the ED forums because of what they've said on a DIFFERENT forum. They may not have been out to convince ED, they may have just been venting their frustrations and disappointments. But no, they get banned as well.

As Force10 said in the first post, he never used the ED forums... "Never" might be a wrong word to use, so let me put it this way... Force10 joined on 2009 and has since posted 16 times over 7 years. Last post was November 2015. Yet he still got "posting rights revoked"!! A guy who has not posted in 9-10 months, but then some moderator still thought "how dare he post bad stuff over at [some other forum]?! I'll take away his posting rights here, that'll show him!"


Originally Posted By: zaelu
I think you overestimate somethings in your judgment.

I am curious what you think Daz has overestimated and why you say so?


Originally Posted By: zaelu
I don't believe such thing is true. I think is just another exaggeration and maybe you wish for it but... it's not like that. The forum has little "bad" influence on their product reputation.

I guess you missed reading a few things over the years then!


Originally Posted By: zaelu
Most of the "setbacks" in reputation are done by delays but that is reality of this world. We can whine about them but... that is pretty much all. This and limited technology for now... which is again... delays. If ED would made available a world wide map like Nevada and the rest of DCS... all of the so called problems with the forums would be wiped out like by a flood.

The reality of this world is that if you missed your deadlines (which you set yourself!) as often as ED missed theirs, you'd be out of a job. Yes, we can whine about this but others have also taken a few more steps: no more purchasing of DCS products, selling or even GIVING away their modules, or just walking away from the sim altogether. Does any of these sound good to you at all?

If ED were to make a worldwide map, they'd be stuck doing nothing else for at least the next 3-5 years! Also note that not all complaints/problems are with regards to the map; quite a few are with regards to the modules as well.


- Ice
#4292837 - 09/02/16 12:15 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
If ED were to announce a Phantom, Harrier or Tornado (my 3 favourite aircraft) and stated it would be released in 2018, the first thing I would think of would not be how great it would be to fly one of those iconic airframes...it would be that ED would never hit 2018 in a month of Sundays. My first thought would be 'more like released in 2020 at the earliest'.....this is because for every single product they have released so far they have been massively late, and like I have said in other threads it becomes pessimism and not optimism whenever they announce anything.


There's a guy on the BMS forums who is building a Tomcat for BMS. I've got a strong feeling I'll be flying the F-14 in BMS before it comes to DCS. Sure, it'll probably be an F-14 with F-16 avionics but I won't be able to hear you as I buzz the tower biggrin

tomcat


- Ice
#4292838 - 09/02/16 12:16 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: FlashBurn]  
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
BTW. I saved my support ticket. I use it as an example of what never ever to do. rofl

Wow... any chance you'd share the ticket with us?


- Ice
#4292840 - 09/02/16 12:40 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
BTW. I saved my support ticket. I use it as an example of what never ever to do. rofl

Wow... any chance you'd share the ticket with us?


I really don't know if I want to go there again. Back then the final straw that got me banned or whatever you want to call it was me posting that thing. Mr. Crabby pants did not like that. I knew what the results where going to be, but that conversation sort made my mind up with my wallet and where I wanted to be. In the end, I was beat up over 1.13 rule. As soon as I posted here, what I thought was an amusing post about an a freak thing, it all went down hill. I honestly thought it would get sorted in about 30 seconds with a laugh. That is not where it went.

I did criticize DCS, in a GOOD way before my run in (criticism is not all negative). I really liked what they where doing. Still do. But they do things I can not get over. Only thing that has really changed since 3 or years back, is they banned even MORE people. So the out ringers that might have been ringing the, there is a problem bell, are no longer beaten with sticks.

Ed needs to dump that 1.13 rule. It does not fly well in countries with freedom of speech. Gets folks into problems as they do what they where born doing, speaking their minds. Some of it is toxic as hell. But I think most of us adults can be trusted to sift threw the piles of dung.

I also made an error in how I approached the situation. I came at it all light hearted and used my usual, I am amused tone. Folks that live their concrete boring world of speech can misinterpret that. Its not that it is wrong, we all are different folks, its that you expect a level or professionalism when someone is getting paid to do the work of sorting threw issues. Even had I, as a paid customer been a pissed off customer (so long as not directly insulting folks), it still fell on the people getting paid to act to resolve the issue in the fastest way possible with the least amount of grief. It started out as a you are the problem and I am god. That is how it felt. The burden of having to prove I was not this other person even though my account started in another city with another IP under a different name with DCS titles linked to it. That was thrown out and the tone I was getting was confrontational.


So I really do not know if I want to go there again with that ticket.... Last one was deleted on this forum by a mod. I have no idea who or why. But it was a time before ED hit the critical mass of banning every other paying customer.

#4292844 - 09/02/16 12:54 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: zaelu]  
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Tom_Weiss Offline
>>> P3Dv4+Il-2 = !!!
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Originally Posted By: zaelu

Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss


their forum hijacked their product reputation


I don't believe such thing is true. I think is just another exaggeration and maybe you wish for it but... it's not like that. The forum has little "bad" influence on their product reputation. Mostly is a good thing because of the good things there are there. That is for the few that actually go to the forum and most of those few are not "cocked" for bad stuff.

Most of the "setbacks" in reputation are done by delays but that is reality of this world. We can whine about them but... that is pretty much all. This and limited technology for now... which is again... delays. If ED would made available a world wide map like Nevada and the rest of DCS... all of the so called problems with the forums would be wiped out like by a flood.



this forum proves that what I wrote is correct, we mostly spend our time discussing that forum's fallout.

#4292846 - 09/02/16 01:08 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: FlashBurn]  
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
Originally Posted By: - Ice
Wow... any chance you'd share the ticket with us?

I really don't know if I want to go there again.

Fair enough, just thought I'd ask biggrin


- Ice
#4292857 - 09/02/16 02:12 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: FlashBurn]  
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>>> P3Dv4+Il-2 = !!!
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn

Even had I, as a paid customer been a pissed off customer (so long as not directly insulting folks), it still fell on the people getting paid to act to resolve the issue in the fastest way possible with the least amount of grief. It started out as a you are the problem and I am god. That is how it felt. The burden of having to prove I was not this other person even though my account started in another city with another IP under a different name with DCS titles linked to it. That was thrown out and the tone I was getting was confrontational.


So I really do not know if I want to go there again with that ticket.... Last one was deleted on this forum by a mod. I have no idea who or why. But it was a time before ED hit the critical mass of banning every other paying customer.



you hit the nail in the head ! not once - but twice !!!

awesome:

1. it still fell on the people getting paid to act to resolve the issue in the fastest way possible with the least amount of grief.

2. It started out as a you are the problem and I am god

and this one:

Originally Posted By: FlashBurn


But it was a time before ED hit the critical mass of banning every other paying customer.



it also is simply awesome, thanks.

smile

#4292877 - 09/02/16 05:30 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice

Maybe a person doesn't get banned if he's just a nobody making silly comments? Maybe once someone gains credibility or brings forward documents and evidence that highlights ED's flaws, once that someone can start making ED loose face, they set the trigger-happy ban moderators on them? Like I said, we're not entirely sure where the line is, or if there is any line at all!


'Suppose it's like that. Then why bother? Because you payed 60$? You got the game... if it's not worth it like 99% of the other games then... let it go. But this... oh... it would have been perfect if this thing was in it so lets pull the line till it breaks doesn't sound good tactic.


Originally Posted By: - Ice

I invite you to investigate why Snoopy and Noodle have recently been banned from the ED forums then. Time and patience? These guys have been in the community since FOREVER. I joined DCS A10C around Beta 3 or Beta 4, just after they took out the Nevada terrain. I know Snoopy was around at that time. That's a LOOOONG time ago. Credibility? I'm sure with a little searching, you'll know what those guys do for a living. If anyone can "word fencing" with ED regarding the A10, it's them!


I disagree. If they got banned they got banned for two possible extreme reasons. Either they didn't know how to word fence and they offended that forum (let's say like that) or that forum is crazy and there is no good reason to care about it that much. Between these extreme points... we can plot possible realities. But they will be between these pylons.

Example. I had a friend that was very knowledgeable about Mi-8. I had the Mi-8 module way before him and at that time I didn't even know him better and I was in the Mi-8 cockpit (with another friend also in Mi-8) and this guy used to describe what we saw and what is for like he was there and living in it for 20 years. I don't remember of something he said about Mi-8 that wasn't true in the end but... his mind was not glue together very well. He couldn't stand a forum. He got nervous and started endless rantings about trivial things... like why Belsimtek doesn't put the side door ladder, or the internal supplementary fuel tank, etc. In the end he got some hospital days and slowly departed from our group. When he was lucid he was an interesting fellow... but...

I don't say or know Snoopy and Noodle are in same case... but neither ED. World is full of people that feel... misplaced... and angered.

I understood that ED asked for sources and disagree with the ones provided. For me this is either end of the problem or a need for different sources or approach. Afaik ED modeled A-10 after a contract with USAF for the trainers. Their documentation must have been solid and probably "sensitive". So they might say... look... I have my sources but they are secret. You either provide me some proof that beats hands down what I have and can't disclose or we end the discussion.

I imagine if something similar would happen about a Su-27 module made at A10C level someone would get tense about an attempt of espionage also... you know... fishing to find what exactly the other knows...

All I know is if Einstein was wrong... I don't go at his house and get thrown out of the window after trying to convince him for nothing. Either he is "crazy"... or me... or something in between.

If you want to say is not about talk friends but customer-seller relation... we can add that customers have a lot of myths that are not true about this relation.

Originally Posted By: - Ice

Then there's Force10 and other users, both here and on Reddit and other forums that have been banned from the ED forums because of what they've said on a DIFFERENT forum.


As I said... it makes sense this. If you sell Icecream and a guy says something bad (in your entitled opinion) about your shop while standing on the line with other customers... you revoke his rights to buy from you... right? At some point at least which you decide where it is. Now what if that guy goes to the next Gelateria and starts talking about your shop the same way (before any ban so it matters in this argument)... What do you do? You smile to him when he comes to your shop to buy? Right... In heaven maybe smile .

Originally Posted By: - Ice

Originally Posted By: zaelu
I think you overestimate somethings in your judgment.

I am curious what you think Daz has overestimated and why you say so?


I think is an overestimation the effect of "customers getting fed up with the way their own message boards are handled? They lose customers, they lose money....they'll only have themselves to blame." Nothing actually happens. ED takes even more punitive measures than necessary because things like those arguments might get blown out of proportion and yes... it's kinda the user fault for getting into this.

Imagine... A-10C is a bad product because someone says the engine should output 103.2% instead of 102.9%... in some situation. Would you like your product to be trashed or tragged in a PR mess because someone says he knows such thing?


Originally Posted By: - Ice


The reality of this world is that if you missed your deadlines (which you set yourself!) as often as ED missed theirs, you'd be out of a job.


You should visit France biggrin . Kidding. I think delays are everywhere. It's a matter of how you make them acceptable... tolerable. Also... ED stopped giving dead lines a good while ago.

#4292925 - 09/02/16 10:33 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: zaelu]  
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Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice

Maybe a person doesn't get banned if he's just a nobody making silly comments? Maybe once someone gains credibility or brings forward documents and evidence that highlights ED's flaws, once that someone can start making ED loose face, they set the trigger-happy ban moderators on them? Like I said, we're not entirely sure where the line is, or if there is any line at all!


'Suppose it's like that. Then why bother? Because you payed 60$? You got the game... if it's not worth it like 99% of the other games then... let it go. But this... oh... it would have been perfect if this thing was in it so lets pull the line till it breaks doesn't sound good tactic.

Why bother? Why not just say "meh, fk this!" and walk away? Because you like the game. Because you like the sim. Because you want to fly it, notice a flaw, look up some evidence that shows some values are off, go to the forums to see if it could be fixed.... BAM! Banned!

That's the thing.... at one time or another, we all thought "it's worth it." Surely ED cares about its sim and will welcome constructive criticisms especially when backed with evidence. Nope. BAM! Banned again!

Okay, you go to a different forum, see if you are the one that is wrong, air out your argument. BAM! Banned on the ED forums!

It's not our fault the game has bugs. It's not our fault the game has inconsistencies. It's not our fault ED can't face either of these facts. But we are punished for it with bans. We like this game. It is worth our time. Unfortunately, ED doesn't think we're worth their time.

Like I said, we don't know where the line is so we don't know when we're crossing it or whether we're pulling it or not. However, the resulting devastation from the ban hammer shows that the line can be wherever they want it to be and it doesn't take much to "break" the line. Heck, I think if you look at it wrong, it breaks!! biggrin

Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice
I invite you to investigate why Snoopy and Noodle have recently been banned from the ED forums then. Time and patience? These guys have been in the community since FOREVER. I joined DCS A10C around Beta 3 or Beta 4, just after they took out the Nevada terrain. I know Snoopy was around at that time. That's a LOOOONG time ago. Credibility? I'm sure with a little searching, you'll know what those guys do for a living. If anyone can "word fencing" with ED regarding the A10, it's them!


I disagree. If they got banned they got banned for two possible extreme reasons. Either they didn't know how to word fence and they offended that forum (let's say like that) or that forum is crazy and there is no good reason to care about it that much. Between these extreme points... we can plot possible realities. But they will be between these pylons.

Now take in all the other examples of when and why people were banned and you'll start to see where along those pylons ED lies. You can disagree all you want, but ED's ban hammer history speaks for itself. You can cover your ears and sing "la, la, la" but it won't make the reality go away.

Originally Posted By: zaelu
Example. I had a friend that was very knowledgeable about Mi-8. I had the Mi-8 module way before him and at that time I didn't even know him better and I was in the Mi-8 cockpit (with another friend also in Mi-8) and this guy used to describe what we saw and what is for like he was there and living in it for 20 years. I don't remember of something he said about Mi-8 that wasn't true in the end but... his mind was not glue together very well. He couldn't stand a forum. He got nervous and started endless rantings about trivial things... like why Belsimtek doesn't put the side door ladder, or the internal supplementary fuel tank, etc. In the end he got some hospital days and slowly departed from our group. When he was lucid he was an interesting fellow... but...

I don't say or know Snoopy and Noodle are in same case... but neither ED. World is full of people that feel... misplaced... and angered.

Er, sure. Your friend was unbalanced, we got that. Are you saying Snoopy and Noodle might be? Are you saying other people who have been banned for similar reasons are unbalanced as well? Nope. If this were the case (ED not listening to crazy and unbalanced people), then we'd know about it and Snoopy and Noodle wouldn't have been banned at all. But this is not what is happening in reality.

Also, this doesn't hold up to Force10's situation. He wasn't even posting!! But he got a light tap of the ban hammer anyway.

Originally Posted By: zaelu
I understood that ED asked for sources and disagree with the ones provided. For me this is either end of the problem or a need for different sources or approach. Afaik ED modeled A-10 after a contract with USAF for the trainers. Their documentation must have been solid and probably "sensitive". So they might say... look... I have my sources but they are secret. You either provide me some proof that beats hands down what I have and can't disclose or we end the discussion.

Community: This part of the sim is broken!
ED: Show me proof.
C: Here you go, clear as day.
E: I don't accept that proof.
C: Here's another one. And here's how it works in real life as proof as well.
E: I don't accept that proof.
C: Well, what would you accept?
E: Show me proof.
Crazy!!

Also, if what you say is true (and part of it is), then why don't ED just come out and say it? Why hide behind swiss-cheese excuses? In fact, they could just say "we can't fix this due to everything else on our plate right now" but they don't because that would be admitting they were wrong in the first place. Nope, we can't have that.

Another point --- How can the "solid and more sensitive" documentation be different from what documentation and real-life performance Snoopy and Noodle are showing?


Originally Posted By: zaelu
All I know is if Einstein was wrong... I don't go at his house and get thrown out of the window after trying to convince him for nothing. Either he is "crazy"... or me... or something in between.

You must be a great customer. You buy a car, it doesn't work as advertised, but you don't go back to the dealer to complain because you're scared of being thrown out the window. Some of us prefer to complain. And bring evidence. ED can use the ban hammer, but they're just shooting themselves in the foot each time they do.


Originally Posted By: zaelu
If you want to say is not about talk friends but customer-seller relation... we can add that customers have a lot of myths that are not true about this relation.

Sure, there are some myths. But there are a lot more that aren't. Big difference.


Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice

Then there's Force10 and other users, both here and on Reddit and other forums that have been banned from the ED forums because of what they've said on a DIFFERENT forum.


As I said... it makes sense this. If you sell Icecream and a guy says something bad (in your entitled opinion) about your shop while standing on the line with other customers... you revoke his rights to buy from you... right? At some point at least which you decide where it is. Now what if that guy goes to the next Gelateria and starts talking about your shop the same way (before any ban so it matters in this argument)... What do you do? You smile to him when he comes to your shop to buy? Right... In heaven maybe smile .

Is that how they do customer support in France or Romania?

If I were selling ice cream and a guy on the line complaining that my mint chocolate ice cream isn't minty enough, fine (even though I think it's minty enough in my entitled opinion). I'll tell him I'll take that into consideration next time I whip up a batch, and I'll give him an extra scoop of this rocky road ice cream for his trouble. If he's complaining that my establishment is filthy but it isn't, I'll show him the health inspector's report and even invite him and some patrons into the shop to see for themselves. Point is: I will tackle and disprove or acknowledge his feedback, not go out and tape his mouth shut then go back in the shop like nothing happened!

If the guy is slandering (false statements) my shop at other locations then comes back, I'll still welcome him with a smile. He's the A-hole, not me.

Now imagine if the guy was saying my mint chocolate ice cream wasn't minty enough... and I say, "well, I think it's minty enough for me, but tell you what... come back next week and I'll whip up a special batch for you and once you like it, we'll call it "zaelu's mint," how about that sir? Oh, and here, have a rocky road on the house!" How many friends do you think he'll bring on the next visit to show them "zaelu's mint"? How many times do you think he'll come back to my store? Do you think he'll even TRY the mint chocolate ice cream of other stores now that I got one SPECIAL for him? Now what about the other people who heard the conversation, do you think they'll come back? Do you think they'll want to try "zaelu's mint" as well?

Bring ED's reaction into any other business, especially the food business, and they'll go down quick. How many times do restaurants loose customers due to rude servers or poor service even though the food's good?


Originally Posted By: zaelu
I think is an overestimation the effect of "customers getting fed up with the way their own message boards are handled? They lose customers, they lose money....they'll only have themselves to blame." Nothing actually happens. ED takes even more punitive measures than necessary because things like those arguments might get blown out of proportion and yes... it's kinda the user fault for getting into this.

I'd like to agree with you there, but unfortunately, it's not an overestimation. Customers do get fed up. They do walk away. They do stop purchasing modules. You have evidence RIGHT HERE on this thread and it won't take much to get more. Go to any other virtual squadron and they'll have someone with horror stories to tell. ED takes punitive measures because it has no better excuse or comeback, so they "shut you up" with the ban hammer.

In a way, it is the user's fault... we have so many instances of reasonable requests or queries or reports getting shut down with a ban, so why expect something different this time?

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
I'm sure you know the guy that said this wink


Originally Posted By: zaelu
Imagine... A-10C is a bad product because someone says the engine should output 103.2% instead of 102.9%... in some situation. Would you like your product to be trashed or tragged in a PR mess because someone says he knows such thing?

No, no, no, no! The A-10C is **NOT** a bad product. The A-10C is not what we are discussing, but ED's reaction to complaints and criticisms to it's products, whether it is the Hog or the Shark or other modules. We are talking about ED's knee-jerk reaction despite having evidence to the contrary and despite being an upstanding member of the DCS community **AND** despite the upstanding member really working on the real thing.

If I made a product that I claimed was accurate, then a mechanic told me "no it isn't, it's off in this little area by a tiny bit" and shows me evidence from documentation and also real-world evidence, and I persist in saying my product is accurate and the mechanic is an idiot, then yeah, my product and my name deserves to be trashed and dragged in a great PR mess.


Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice
The reality of this world is that if you missed your deadlines (which you set yourself!) as often as ED missed theirs, you'd be out of a job.


You should visit France biggrin . Kidding. I think delays are everywhere. It's a matter of how you make them acceptable... tolerable.

Reality is delays happen, yes. Reality is you learn how to anticipate and make allowances for delays. If it takes you 10 minutes to drive from your house to your work on a Sunday morning, and insist on only making 10 minute allowance for your commute regardless of what day of the week it is or what time of the day your shift starts, I'm sure the "delays happen" excuse won't save you from your manager/boss kicking you out the door.


Originally Posted By: zaelu
Also... ED stopped giving dead lines a good while ago.

Really?

DCS newsletter January 29
Quote:
In parallel we continue to work on the F/A-18C Hornet. We are currently working on the cockpit and setting up its functionality. Later in 2016 we plan to release the Hornet as an "Early Access" product that will allow you to participate in early testing.

In the first half of 2016, several new 3rd party aircraft modules will also be launched. These include the F-5E Tiger II by Belsimtek, the SA342 Gazelle by Polychop Simulations, and the AJS-37 Viggen by Leatherneck Simulations.

We see 2016 as a big year for aircraft carrier operations as we plan to release both Nimitz-class aircraft carrier and Kuznetsov-class aircraft carrier modules.


DCS newsletter August 19
Quote:
DCS World 2.5 is still on track to be available in 2016.


Sounds like deadlines to me! Let's see.... just a little less than 4 months to go for 2.5 and the Hornet. Anyone holding their breath?


- Ice
#4293005 - 09/02/16 03:28 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 9,028
KraziKanuK Offline
Hotshot
KraziKanuK  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 9,028
Ottawa Canada
SimHQ, like DCS, now has terrible moderation.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24894-sim-hq/


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4293023 - 09/02/16 04:58 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,534
theOden Offline
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theOden  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,534
Haha.
Amazing guy that one.
I've been slapped by a few mods here but I can honestly say this is the most well moderated place I've been to (and that is quite a few places the last 17 years).

#4293031 - 09/02/16 05:21 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 9,028
KraziKanuK Offline
Hotshot
KraziKanuK  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 9,028
Ottawa Canada
All gone as Jason has edited the thread except for the initial post.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4293041 - 09/02/16 05:43 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,934
GrayGhost Offline
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GrayGhost  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,934
You mean to say that forum moderators don't really care to have moderation blah blah about other forums?


--
44th VFW
#4293043 - 09/02/16 05:50 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 161
zaelu Offline
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zaelu  Offline
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Member

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 161
France (ex Romania)
Originally Posted By: - Ice

Why bother? Why not just say "meh, fk this!" and walk away? Because you like the game. Because you like the sim. Because you want to fly it, notice a flaw, look up some evidence that shows some values are off, go to the forums to see if it could be fixed.... BAM! Banned!


This to me looks like:
-Why you stalled?
-Because I got scared of the ground coming up and pulled harder.


If you like the game and you want a flaw you think you saw corrected and you have "some proof" you need also to modulate your approach. These are the rules. And almost like in life... they are not clear... they are interpret-able, mostly by the "law giver". It is you who needs to adapt and not try to hide/shield behind some idealist customer service.


Originally Posted By: - Ice

It's not our fault the game has bugs. It's not our fault the game has inconsistencies. It's not our fault ED can't face either of these facts. But we are punished for it with bans. We like this game. It is worth our time. Unfortunately, ED doesn't think we're worth their time.


This kind of interpretation only gives you head aches and bad feelings.

Originally Posted By: - Ice

Also, this doesn't hold up to Force10's situation. He wasn't even posting!! But he got a light tap of the ban hammer anyway.



Yea but he also is very chill about it.

"Getting banned from a forum I never use is pretty much a non-issue for me however."



Originally Posted By: - Ice

Community: This part of the sim is broken!
ED: Show me proof.
C: Here you go, clear as day.
E: I don't accept that proof.
C: Here's another one. And here's how it works in real life as proof as well.
E: I don't accept that proof.
C: Well, what would you accept?
E: Show me proof.
Crazy!!


You have the recipe correct only at the end you interpret it wrong I think. Is not like ED is some sort of religion and no matter what you say they will reject "Evolution". They just tell you your proof is not good enough. What if you are wrong several times in a row? Is it really impossible?

Turn the problem upside down. What is your bug actually? Is it a small bug or a conspiracy trail? Say that bug with A-10C engines not pulling all the percents at some points. What is that bug? A conspiracy of ED to degrade A-10C legacy? Imho that would be ridiculous so if I see them stubborn about that issue then maybe either they have a secret source or a better source or they have a contract with USAF to make A-10c a bit... weaker for others eyes. IN this case they will not move one inch and they will push hard back.


Originally Posted By: - Ice

Another point --- How can the "solid and more sensitive" documentation be different from what documentation and real-life performance Snoopy and Noodle are showing?


If Snoopy and Noodle were Yo-Yo's friends I am sure their real life experience would count a bit more. Not being in that case I think you can agree they will have harder time convincing with just that.


Originally Posted By: - Ice

You must be a great customer. You buy a car, it doesn't work as advertised, but you don't go back to the dealer to complain because you're scared of being thrown out the window.


No... I simply have a contract that say he is covering only the engine and gearbox and not the wiring of the ventilation fan engine. True story biggrin I don't like battles where is clear as day I will lose.

Originally Posted By: - Ice

Is that how they do customer support in France or Romania?


They are different... from each other biggrin.

Originally Posted By: - Ice
If I were selling ice cream...


Now imagine you are selling icecream online to hundred of thousands of people. Some like to trash your store...some just complain... put together they will add to some good some that will fill you quite a few days to tackle the "smile approach". If not enough... Try imagine yo are selling that icecream online in Russia also... wink

Originally Posted By: - Ice

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."


Yes... don't get banned again biggrin !

Originally Posted By: - Ice

Originally Posted By: zaelu
Also... ED stopped giving dead lines a good while ago.

Really?...

...we plan
...is still on track...

Sounds like deadlines to me!


As you can see... it is your choice to translate "we plan" and "is still on track" with "Sure Deadline"

bottles

Last edited by zaelu; 09/02/16 06:35 PM.
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