Maybe a person doesn't get banned if he's just a nobody making silly comments? Maybe once someone gains credibility or brings forward documents and evidence that highlights ED's flaws, once that someone can start making ED loose face, they set the trigger-happy ban moderators on them? Like I said, we're not entirely sure where the line is, or if there is any line at all!
'Suppose it's like that. Then why bother? Because you payed 60$? You got the game... if it's not worth it like 99% of the other games then... let it go. But this... oh... it would have been perfect if this thing was in it so lets pull the line till it breaks doesn't sound good tactic.
Why bother? Why not just say "meh, fk this!"
and walk away? Because you like the game. Because you like the sim. Because you want to fly it, notice a flaw, look up some evidence that shows some values are off, go to the forums to see if it could be fixed.... BAM! Banned!
That's the thing.... at one time or another, we all thought "it's worth it." Surely ED cares about its sim and will welcome constructive criticisms especially when backed with evidence. Nope. BAM! Banned again!
Okay, you go to a different forum, see if you are the one that is wrong, air out your argument. BAM! Banned on the ED forums!
It's not our fault the game has bugs. It's not our fault the game has inconsistencies. It's not our fault ED can't face either of these facts. But we are punished for it with bans. We like this game. It is worth our time. Unfortunately, ED doesn't think we're worth their time.
Like I said, we don't know where the line is so we don't know when we're crossing it or whether we're pulling it or not. However, the resulting devastation from the ban hammer shows that the line can be wherever they want it to be and it doesn't take much to "break" the line. Heck, I think if you look at it wrong, it breaks!!
I invite you to investigate why Snoopy and Noodle have recently been banned from the ED forums then. Time and patience? These guys have been in the community since FOREVER. I joined DCS A10C around Beta 3 or Beta 4, just after they took out the Nevada terrain. I know Snoopy was around at that time. That's a LOOOONG time ago. Credibility? I'm sure with a little searching, you'll know what those guys do for a living. If anyone can "word fencing" with ED regarding the A10, it's them!
I disagree. If they got banned they got banned for two possible extreme reasons. Either they didn't know how to word fence and they offended that forum (let's say like that) or that forum is crazy and there is no good reason to care about it that much. Between these extreme points... we can plot possible realities. But they will be between these pylons.
Now take in all the other examples of when and why people were banned and you'll start to see where along those pylons ED lies. You can disagree all you want, but ED's ban hammer history speaks for itself. You can cover your ears and sing "la, la, la"
but it won't make the reality go away.
Example. I had a friend that was very knowledgeable about Mi-8. I had the Mi-8 module way before him and at that time I didn't even know him better and I was in the Mi-8 cockpit (with another friend also in Mi-8) and this guy used to describe what we saw and what is for like he was there and living in it for 20 years. I don't remember of something he said about Mi-8 that wasn't true in the end but... his mind was not glue together very well. He couldn't stand a forum. He got nervous and started endless rantings about trivial things... like why Belsimtek doesn't put the side door ladder, or the internal supplementary fuel tank, etc. In the end he got some hospital days and slowly departed from our group. When he was lucid he was an interesting fellow... but...
I don't say or know Snoopy and Noodle are in same case... but neither ED. World is full of people that feel... misplaced... and angered.
Er, sure. Your friend was unbalanced, we got that. Are you saying Snoopy and Noodle might be? Are you saying other people who have been banned for similar reasons are unbalanced as well? Nope. If this were the case (ED not listening to crazy and unbalanced people), then we'd know about it and Snoopy and Noodle wouldn't have been banned at all. But this is not what is happening in reality.
Also, this doesn't hold up to Force10's situation. He wasn't even posting!! But he got a light tap of the ban hammer anyway.
I understood that ED asked for sources and disagree with the ones provided. For me this is either end of the problem or a need for different sources or approach. Afaik ED modeled A-10 after a contract with USAF for the trainers. Their documentation must have been solid and probably "sensitive". So they might say... look... I have my sources but they are secret. You either provide me some proof that beats hands down what I have and can't disclose or we end the discussion.
Community: This part of the sim is broken!
ED: Show me proof.
C: Here you go, clear as day.
E: I don't accept that proof.
C: Here's another one. And here's how it works in real life as proof as well.
E: I don't accept that proof.
C: Well, what would you accept?
E: Show me proof.
Also, if what you say is true (and part of it is), then why don't ED just come out and say it? Why hide behind swiss-cheese excuses? In fact, they could just say "we can't fix this due to everything else on our plate right now"
but they don't because that would be admitting they were wrong in the first place. Nope, we can't have that.
Another point --- How can the "solid and more sensitive" documentation be different from what documentation and real-life performance Snoopy and Noodle are showing?
All I know is if Einstein was wrong... I don't go at his house and get thrown out of the window after trying to convince him for nothing. Either he is "crazy"... or me... or something in between.
You must be a great customer. You buy a car, it doesn't work as advertised, but you don't go back to the dealer to complain because you're scared of being thrown out the window. Some of us prefer to complain. And bring evidence. ED can use the ban hammer, but they're just shooting themselves in the foot each time they do.
If you want to say is not about talk friends but customer-seller relation... we can add that customers have a lot of myths that are not true about this relation.
Sure, there are some myths. But there are a lot more that aren't. Big difference.
Then there's Force10 and other users, both here and on Reddit and other forums that have been banned from the ED forums because of what they've said on a DIFFERENT forum.
As I said... it makes sense this. If you sell Icecream and a guy says something bad (in your entitled opinion) about your shop while standing on the line with other customers... you revoke his rights to buy from you... right? At some point at least which you decide where it is. Now what if that guy goes to the next Gelateria and starts talking about your shop the same way (before any ban so it matters in this argument)... What do you do? You smile to him when he comes to your shop to buy? Right... In heaven maybe
Is that how they do customer support in France or Romania?
If I were selling ice cream and a guy on the line complaining that my mint chocolate ice cream isn't minty enough, fine (even though I think it's minty enough in my entitled opinion). I'll tell him I'll take that into consideration next time I whip up a batch, and I'll give him an extra scoop of this rocky road ice cream for his trouble. If he's complaining that my establishment is filthy but it isn't, I'll show him the health inspector's report and even invite him and some patrons into the shop to see for themselves. Point is: I will tackle and disprove or acknowledge his feedback, not go out and tape his mouth shut then go back in the shop like nothing happened!
If the guy is slandering (false statements) my shop at other locations then comes back, I'll still welcome him with a smile. He's the A-hole, not me.
Now imagine if the guy was saying my mint chocolate ice cream wasn't minty enough... and I say, "well, I think it's minty enough for me, but tell you what... come back next week and I'll whip up a special batch for you and once you like it, we'll call it "zaelu's mint," how about that sir? Oh, and here, have a rocky road on the house!"
How many friends do you think he'll bring on the next visit to show them "zaelu's mint"? How many times do you think he'll come back to my store? Do you think he'll even TRY
the mint chocolate ice cream of other stores now that I got one SPECIAL for him? Now what about the other people who heard the conversation, do you think they'll come back? Do you think they'll want to try "zaelu's mint" as well?
Bring ED's reaction into any other business, especially the food business, and they'll go down quick. How many times do restaurants loose customers due to rude servers or poor service even though the food's good?
I think is an overestimation the effect of "customers getting fed up with the way their own message boards are handled? They lose customers, they lose money....they'll only have themselves to blame." Nothing actually happens. ED takes even more punitive measures than necessary because things like those arguments might get blown out of proportion and yes... it's kinda the user fault for getting into this.
I'd like to agree with you there, but unfortunately, it's not an overestimation. Customers do get fed up. They do walk away. They do stop purchasing modules. You have evidence RIGHT HERE on this thread and it won't take much to get more. Go to any other virtual squadron and they'll have someone with horror stories to tell. ED takes punitive measures because it has no better excuse or comeback, so they "shut you up" with the ban hammer.
In a way, it is the user's fault... we have so many instances of reasonable requests or queries or reports getting shut down with a ban, so why expect something different this time?"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
I'm sure you know the guy that said this
Imagine... A-10C is a bad product because someone says the engine should output 103.2% instead of 102.9%... in some situation. Would you like your product to be trashed or tragged in a PR mess because someone says he knows such thing?
No, no, no, no! The A-10C is **NOT** a bad product. The A-10C is not what we are discussing, but ED's reaction to complaints and criticisms to it's products, whether it is the Hog or the Shark or other modules. We are talking about ED's knee-jerk reaction despite having evidence to the contrary and despite being an upstanding member of the DCS community **AND** despite the upstanding member really working on the real thing.
If I made a product that I claimed was accurate, then a mechanic told me "no it isn't, it's off in this little area by a tiny bit" and shows me evidence from documentation and also real-world evidence, and I persist in saying my product is accurate and the mechanic is an idiot, then yeah, my product and my name deserves to be trashed and dragged in a great PR mess.
The reality of this world is that if you missed your deadlines (which you set yourself!) as often as ED missed theirs, you'd be out of a job.
You should visit France
. Kidding. I think delays are everywhere. It's a matter of how you make them acceptable... tolerable.
Reality is delays happen, yes. Reality is you learn how to anticipate and make allowances for delays. If it takes you 10 minutes to drive from your house to your work on a Sunday morning, and insist on only making 10 minute allowance for your commute regardless of what day of the week it is or what time of the day your shift starts, I'm sure the "delays happen" excuse won't save you from your manager/boss kicking you out the door.
Also... ED stopped giving dead lines a good while ago.
DCS newsletter January 29
In parallel we continue to work on the F/A-18C Hornet. We are currently working on the cockpit and setting up its functionality. Later in 2016 we plan to release the Hornet as an "Early Access" product that will allow you to participate in early testing.
In the first half of 2016, several new 3rd party aircraft modules will also be launched. These include the F-5E Tiger II by Belsimtek, the SA342 Gazelle by Polychop Simulations, and the AJS-37 Viggen by Leatherneck Simulations.
We see 2016 as a big year for aircraft carrier operations as we plan to release both Nimitz-class aircraft carrier and Kuznetsov-class aircraft carrier modules.
DCS newsletter August 19
DCS World 2.5 is still on track to be available in 2016.
Sounds like deadlines to me! Let's see.... just a little less than 4 months to go for 2.5 and the Hornet. Anyone holding their breath?