Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 7 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
#4282320 - 07/27/16 10:37 AM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: HomeFries]  
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19
Sporg Offline
Junior Member
Sporg  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19
Swe/Dk
Very good post HomeFries, I agree very much.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4282333 - 07/27/16 11:53 AM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss Offline
Veteran
Tom_Weiss  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
3rd Planet, Sun
Quote:
The perception about heavy handed moderation is pervasive and well documented, and I won't beat the dead horse. However, disallowing donations in the EULA is heavy handed and I would argue that it is also non-binding in accordance with common law. As long as we're not talking about an expected donation with quid pro quo, there should be no restrictions on the willing transfer of property without any other expectations. I understand why ED wishes to maintain control over payware (hint: it's not all about greed), but by coming hard down on modders who depend on the generosity of others, they are coming down hardest on their most loyal supporters: those who have put their time into making ED's product better for everybody. Forbidding donations is clumsy and legally questionable; enforcing this is short sighted and ham-fisted. All this does is turn ED's strongest advocates into vocal opponents, and the more widespread the modder, the more people that get a negative perception when the modder and his works are gone. In political terms, this is known as an "unforced error."



and there is another aspect of forbidding donations that is even more absurd:

I make mostly skins for P3D, but I also make skins for DCS - if I add to my signature a donate button, and that signature appears in a website that hosts both P3D and DCS (www.lockonfiles.com) does that mean that I am in violation of DCS EULA ? how should I know for which sim I am receiving donations ?

and the donations received from our website - are they are in violation of some EULA ? are websites forbiden from accepting donations ?

Quote:
The perception about heavy handed moderation is pervasive and well documented


I remember in 2007 when they banned the owner of a well known and liked website, MrWolf owner of Lockonskins, he got so angry he closed down his own website.

That forum has a long history of going after people who invest a lot of time on their products.

#4282334 - 07/27/16 11:57 AM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 36
Gliptal Offline
Junior Member
Gliptal  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 36
Trento, Italy
They're losing customers as well. I was quite interested in the F-5, but no way I'm going to buy it now.

I'm actually sorry for the third parties, that get dragged down with ED.

#4282335 - 07/27/16 12:07 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss Offline
Veteran
Tom_Weiss  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
3rd Planet, Sun
and I am sorry for us - boy, did these people work hard to spoil our fun.

#4282341 - 07/27/16 12:20 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
I think perhaps ED needs a "fun" advocate.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4282347 - 07/27/16 12:34 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss Offline
Veteran
Tom_Weiss  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
3rd Planet, Sun
not only that, but they would need someone to explain to them, in detail, that they are in the game business, that a game has to be entertaining, provide fun to the buyer ... they are acting as if they are selling cockpit trainers to the military ... biggrin

#4282370 - 07/27/16 01:40 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Gliptal]  
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,836
RainMan Offline
Non-Indoctrinated
RainMan  Offline
Non-Indoctrinated
Member

Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,836
Norman, Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Gliptal
I was quite interested in the F-5, but no way I'm going to buy it now.


Fantastic module, btw. Belsimtek always delivers goodness. smile

Why exactly wouldn't you buy it even though you're "quite interested"?



PC: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz @ 4.6GHz | MSI GTX 980 4GB | ASUS Maximus VII Hero | G.SKILL Trident X Series 32GB RAM | 27" Acer Monitor (2560x1440) | 512GB Samsung 850 PRO SSD | Win10 Pro 64bit


Official VKB North America Sales & Support


#4282373 - 07/27/16 01:52 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: RainMan]  
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 36
Gliptal Offline
Junior Member
Gliptal  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 36
Trento, Italy
Originally Posted By: RainMan
Originally Posted By: Gliptal
I was quite interested in the F-5, but no way I'm going to buy it now.


Fantastic module, btw. Belsimtek always delivers goodness. smile

Why exactly wouldn't you buy it even though you're "quite interested"?


Because ED just banned me from the forums for speaking out on them on reddit about the whole Barthek issue. Which is their prerogative based on their EULA, but at this point I'm not going to give them money for a while. Also considering I already regret buying NTTR.

And I understand it's Belsimtek's work and their module, but that's exactly the point isn't it? ED's PR rules poison the well for everyone drinking from it.

Last edited by Gliptal; 07/27/16 01:55 PM.
#4282375 - 07/27/16 01:58 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss
not only that, but they would need someone to explain to them, in detail, that they are in the game business, that a game has to be entertaining, provide fun to the buyer ... they are acting as if they are selling cockpit trainers to the military ... biggrin


Because they are, they just don't see that the other market requires a different perspective. Rather they DO know that, of course they do, they just don't know how. There's a disconnect.
I don't know if they're aware of it and struggling to overcome it, or they think they've got it covered which means they believe there is nothing further they need to do.

If it's the former, I wish them luck and hope they get it done sooner rather than later. If it's the latter, well, nothing will change except what we see in the patch change logs then.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4282376 - 07/27/16 02:00 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 36
Gliptal Offline
Junior Member
Gliptal  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 36
Trento, Italy
I'd be curious to see how the Russian portion of the forums is handled, because I often hear of someone over there sharing more information with the users than what we have on the English side.

#4282383 - 07/27/16 02:20 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Gliptal]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss Offline
Veteran
Tom_Weiss  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
3rd Planet, Sun
Originally Posted By: Gliptal
Originally Posted By: RainMan
Originally Posted By: Gliptal
I was quite interested in the F-5, but no way I'm going to buy it now.


Fantastic module, btw. Belsimtek always delivers goodness. smile

Why exactly wouldn't you buy it even though you're "quite interested"?


Because ED just banned me from the forums for speaking out on them on reddit about the whole Barthek issue. Which is their prerogative based on their EULA, but at this point I'm not going to give them money for a while. Also considering I already regret buying NTTR.

And I understand it's Belsimtek's work and their module, but that's exactly the point isn't it? ED's PR rules poison the well for everyone drinking from it.


that is a very valid reason not to buy - why should someone continue buying their modules after they banned you ?

every person they ban is one consumer less - probably they never considered the dampening effect of a ban on the consumer's enthusiasm.

#4282384 - 07/27/16 02:22 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Gliptal]  
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,836
RainMan Offline
Non-Indoctrinated
RainMan  Offline
Non-Indoctrinated
Member

Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,836
Norman, Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: Gliptal


Because ED just banned me from the forums for speaking out on them on reddit about the whole Barthek issue. Which is their prerogative based on their EULA, but at this point I'm not going to give them money for a while. Also considering I already regret buying NTTR.

And I understand it's Belsimtek's work and their module, but that's exactly the point isn't it? ED's PR rules poison the well for everyone drinking from it.


Not sure what a temporary ban on an optional forum has to do with enjoying your hobby? That's like saying you stop driving your car on public roads after getting a speeding ticket...;)

Also, what's wrong with NTTR besides it being in a very early "alpha" status at this time?



PC: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz @ 4.6GHz | MSI GTX 980 4GB | ASUS Maximus VII Hero | G.SKILL Trident X Series 32GB RAM | 27" Acer Monitor (2560x1440) | 512GB Samsung 850 PRO SSD | Win10 Pro 64bit


Official VKB North America Sales & Support


#4282435 - 07/27/16 04:59 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: RainMan]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss
and I am sorry for us - boy, did these people work hard to spoil our fun.


The trick is to find a different source of fun! smile


Originally Posted By: RainMan
Not sure what a temporary ban on an optional forum has to do with enjoying your hobby? That's like saying you stop driving your car on public roads after getting a speeding ticket...;)


Except that you got a ticket "for going 70mph on a 30mph zone" but in reality you were going 70mph on a 70mph zone... the rules on the 70mph zone do not apply on the 30mph zone and vice versa but the ticketing agency/police don't care, you've got the fine anyway. Also, all roads are now 30mph for YOU but not for a select few wink And the potholes have been an issue for 5 years now and nothing's been done about them but you still continue paying road tax to "fix" the roads. Still feel like driving? Or just move to a different country?


- Ice
#4282441 - 07/27/16 05:17 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss Offline
Veteran
Tom_Weiss  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
3rd Planet, Sun
Originally Posted By: - Ice
Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss
and I am sorry for us - boy, did these people work hard to spoil our fun.


The trick is to find a different source of fun! smile



smile

they should do a cost estimate per ban, set a weekly and monthly quota - then issue a certificate to the mod with the highest number of bans " congrats , you helped us lose and average US$ 199.99 for each ban ! " biggrin

#4282456 - 07/27/16 06:26 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,477
HomeFries Offline
Air Dominance Project
HomeFries  Offline
Air Dominance Project
Member

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,477
Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss

they should do a cost estimate per ban, set a weekly and monthly quota - then issue a certificate to the mod with the highest number of bans " congrats , you helped us lose and average US$ 199.99 for each ban ! " biggrin

Except that cost estimates would imply a business process, something that their scope creep and schedule slip indicates that they don't follow.

Don't get me wrong; I'm ecstatic that the Caucasus is being improved to such a high level, but updating a single product for multiple CM builds is the software developer's equivalent of a circular firing squad. I would have thought that the #1 priority would be to integrate the builds before moving forward, even if some rework was required after the fact. I could very well be wrong here, as my experience is more functional than graphical, but this approach just seems to be prolonging the pain for developers and customers both.


-Home Fries

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
- Robert A. Heinlein

The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

#4282459 - 07/27/16 06:41 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss Offline
Veteran
Tom_Weiss  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
3rd Planet, Sun
as far as I can remember it was like this - there was always something that could not be explained that explained what was going on, I cant believe that this has been going on for 12 or so years, but it is true.

maybe DCS 2.whatever will fix everything, that is my hope - the Nevada terrain did not necessarily meet my expectations, but the screenshots I've seen (one or two) look promising, so there is no reason to give up, if you lower your expectations, things dont look so bad.

#4282522 - 07/28/16 12:02 AM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: RainMan]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 772
Johnny_Redd Offline
Member
Johnny_Redd  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 772
Originally Posted By: RainMan
Originally Posted By: Gliptal
I was quite interested in the F-5, but no way I'm going to buy it now.


Fantastic module, btw. Belsimtek always delivers goodness. smile

Why exactly wouldn't you buy it even though you're "quite interested"?

belsimtek release more than the other 3rd parties, they are also the only third party that seem to be able to reach the release dates of their betas. Unfortunately once the beta is on the shop floor and money starts rolling in the further development of the module towards finished product seems to stagnate quite dramatically. If we were talking about an F-35 or any current front line fighter/attack/cargo aircraft/helicopter that were being upgraded by their respective air forces one might have an excuse for the delay in finalising the release. We are, however, talking about out of production aircraft with all documentation and systems finalized. There should be no problem finishing these aircraft. The only hindrance to finishing the aircraft/helicopters is belsimteks desire.
I won't be buying it either. I wouldn't have bought it before the barthek incident, because I still have modules from belsimtek that are unfinished. Modules I payed full price for, I didn't wait for a sale. Modules that will be slipping down the to-do list now that the F5 is bringing in the money for the developer.
The business model that ED and their 3rd parties are using is unsustainable. They are relying on the good will and patience of their customers at the same time treating those customers with contempt for daring to complain. The bartek incident will hurt ED and their third parties. The moderation of the ED forums will hurt ED and their third parties. It's a small market and small comunity. I wouldn't have bought it anyway, it will be a long time before I spend any money at the DCS store, the barthek incident is just one more reason to keep my money in my wallet. I'm still owed finished modules from ED and every 3rd party but veao, razbam and the folk who did the gazelle. Finish what I bought. Finish what you started before starting something new.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4282531 - 07/28/16 12:24 AM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,572
LOF_Rugg Offline
Senior Member
LOF_Rugg  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss


that is a very valid reason not to buy - why should someone continue buying their modules after they banned you ?

When DCS A-10C came out in beta they offered free Nevada as well as access to the beta forums. I flew the feck out of A-10C then when I went to post on the forums I found that I was still banned. Now that wasn't the contract I signed when I offered up my credit card. It took me 2 months to get ED to give me my money back. ED only expects us to abide by the EULA (contract). They don't give one feck if they do.

#4282566 - 07/28/16 06:33 AM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 797
leaf_on_the_wind Offline
Member
leaf_on_the_wind  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 797
Some very good points raised by Mr Redd

Desire being to complete being missing is easy to explain
The desire comes from wanting to make MONEY, lots of lovely money (for coke, hookers and other entertainments)
Once they have gotten YOUR money for a beta/unfinished product that motivational force
to complete reduces by a hell of a lot.

Why move development forward when they already have your money?

And as my sig says Once you have their money .......... never give it back

HAWK and C-101, pretty much everyone who bought this should have been offered a refund
because they are such half finished sh1te

Last edited by leaf_on_the_wind; 07/28/16 06:34 AM.


Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4282644 - 07/28/16 01:30 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
Originally Posted By: leaf_on_the_wind

Once they have gotten YOUR money for a beta/unfinished product that motivational force
to complete reduces by a hell of a lot.

Why move development forward when they already have your money?


In theory, the answer is obvious--to get even more sales from those who wait till release to buy, or wait till reviews say the initial bugs are worked out.

The problem is in practice an unfortunately large percentage of DCS customers have insufficient will power to hold off purchasing until that point. For a hobby that is supposedly the antithesis of instant gratification (go play AirQuake you n00bs!!!11), there is an alarming number of hardcore simmers that can't resist preorder/early access/alpha/beta buys.

None of us know what ratio of sales they get before or after release. If their post-release sales total less than half (and my gut says it may be far less than that), absolutely their development priorities will shift once a product is already generating revenue...because you need to release the next product to generate more revenue.

They should perhaps just call them all released when you can get them at this point, because the amount of work done on the "alphas" or "betas" after they are available to download honestly seems like no more than the amount received by released products just getting updates to fix this or that problem. I think the traditional meaning of the terms in software development has been completely put aside and redefined.

Perhaps it's a marketing tactic? "It's not ready yet, but you can play it NOW if you buy it!" People seem to want something early more than they would normally want it. However, I wonder if the long list of bugs at release would hamper sales overall as people would wonder why it was released in that state.

A further tick in the "it's just a buggy release with an early access/alpha label" column is the pricing. Go on Steam or other sites and look at the pricing for many of the early access titles. They're cheap. Not 10% or 15% preorder cheap, I mean big numbers. Arma 3 early access was $35 or so, I forget exactly. The release was $60.
It was missing a ton of stuff at that point, no campaign, only the smaller of the 2 islands/terrains, bugs, etc, but for over 40% off the release day price people went for it.
Needless to say, the final product was worth $60, even though the campaign failed to make the final release (it was split in 3 and only the first one was at release, the other 2 coming out over the new few months).
If DCS' modules are released early for a 10% or even NO discount...sorry, that's just preorder pricing for a supposedly early access product. Again, it should be simply called released.

Like ED, BIS has a military version of their product that shares development with the commercial version. Unlike ED, I think it gets equal treatment.

I won't go into DayZ, I think that's BIS' own DCS WWII--something they never intended to make, threw out there as a lark and made a bunch of money off of it, but never really had the drive to give it a priority so it limps along slowly compared to the products that were planned. smile



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
Page 7 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Moderated by  Force10, RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0