#4281836 - 07/25/16 04:47 PM
Re: ED/Modding conversation
[Re: Gliptal]
|
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,042
cichlidfan
Member
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,042
Woodbridge, VA, USA
|
Point is, it was neither damaging nor false. They actually called it "trolling". But whatever, I'll wait my month. Interesting. According to their own rules, trolling on other forums is not an offense. Only trolling on ED's forum.
ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1
|
|
#4281849 - 07/25/16 05:19 PM
Re: ED/Modding conversation
[Re: Force10]
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
|
Well, "damaging" is correct, but it is not "false." It's not like it's our fault that the cracks on their product are glaring....
- Ice
|
|
#4281861 - 07/25/16 05:53 PM
Re: ED/Modding conversation
[Re: Force10]
|
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
|
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
|
This again points to the inability to deal with criticism, however poorly or expertly it's presented.
They don't understand that research shows any business that gets only positive reviews is viewed with suspicion. The comments are believed to be paid for, fake, dishonest. If people aren't allowed to see the faults as well as the benefits, and make their own determination as to what outweighs what, they move along. If you won't allow any dissent, it's assumed that's because there is a REAL problem and allowing it to be seen would be disastrous. ED has insecurity bordering on the comical.
Imagine you're in a new town, and you're looking for a place to eat. There are two restaurants nearby. One has a 4 star rating, all 4 stars...from a mere 6 glowing reviews. All of which are 6 months old or older. Another has a 3 star rating, averaged out of 100 reviews, spread between 4, 3, 2, and 1 star, many of which are within the last 2 months. Which do you think people will trust more? Which restaurant would you feel better about visiting?
Suppression of negative remarks and removing defamatory trolling comments are NOT the same thing, not at all. Yet if you treat them the same...
Locking and/or deleting a thread from new customer #1235 asking about something, because ED have heard that question too many times already and thinks it's a backhanded way to criticize them, is stupid. At the very least, give a link to a FAQ with a list of planned features before locking it with a "please check the FAQ before asking as your answer may already be provided." If you walk in off the street to a store and ask a clerk "when do you close on Sunday?" and the clerk says "Oh my GOD will people STOP ASKING WHEN OUR SUNDAY HOURS ARE ALREADY!!!!!!! GET OUT OF MY STORE NOW!!!!", how do you think that person will feel?
I bet they won't think "Oh, gee, I really messed up, that poor clerk must have to deal with so many idiots like me I should make a concerted effort to help instead of adding to their burden of answering dumb questions." I bet they WILL put a negative review of that store out there despite not actually having purchased anything, because you don't need to have purchased to be treated rudely.
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
|
|
#4281956 - 07/25/16 11:01 PM
Re: ED/Modding conversation
[Re: Force10]
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 772
Johnny_Redd
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 772
|
From their forum rules: 1.13 Users using other public forums to spread damaging and false information regarding DCS and Eagle Dynamics will forfeit thier posting rights here. That's an interesting point. Now what was said? Was it damaging and false? Was it damaging? Was it false? The way they have worded that it needs to be damaging AND false. There's nothing to say that a person cant post damaging but true information or post glowing praise no matter how false. There is some ambiguity in 1.13, But that is par for the course for ED and their moderators. Making it up as they go along.
DCS Kickstarter Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable." Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
|
|
#4281957 - 07/25/16 11:05 PM
Re: ED/Modding conversation
[Re: Jedi Master]
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 772
Johnny_Redd
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 772
|
This again points to the inability to deal with criticism, however poorly or expertly it's presented.
They don't understand that research shows any business that gets only positive reviews is viewed with suspicion. The comments are believed to be paid for, fake, dishonest. If people aren't allowed to see the faults as well as the benefits, and make their own determination as to what outweighs what, they move along. If you won't allow any dissent, it's assumed that's because there is a REAL problem and allowing it to be seen would be disastrous. ED has insecurity bordering on the comical.
Imagine you're in a new town, and you're looking for a place to eat. There are two restaurants nearby. One has a 4 star rating, all 4 stars...from a mere 6 glowing reviews. All of which are 6 months old or older. Another has a 3 star rating, averaged out of 100 reviews, spread between 4, 3, 2, and 1 star, many of which are within the last 2 months. Which do you think people will trust more? Which restaurant would you feel better about visiting?
Suppression of negative remarks and removing defamatory trolling comments are NOT the same thing, not at all. Yet if you treat them the same...
Locking and/or deleting a thread from new customer #1235 asking about something, because ED have heard that question too many times already and thinks it's a backhanded way to criticize them, is stupid. At the very least, give a link to a FAQ with a list of planned features before locking it with a "please check the FAQ before asking as your answer may already be provided." If you walk in off the street to a store and ask a clerk "when do you close on Sunday?" and the clerk says "Oh my GOD will people STOP ASKING WHEN OUR SUNDAY HOURS ARE ALREADY!!!!!!! GET OUT OF MY STORE NOW!!!!", how do you think that person will feel?
I bet they won't think "Oh, gee, I really messed up, that poor clerk must have to deal with so many idiots like me I should make a concerted effort to help instead of adding to their burden of answering dumb questions." I bet they WILL put a negative review of that store out there despite not actually having purchased anything, because you don't need to have purchased to be treated rudely.
The Jedi Master Absolutely. Good post.
DCS Kickstarter Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable." Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
|
|
#4281973 - 07/26/16 12:29 AM
Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0
[Re: Tom_Weiss]
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,572
LOF_Rugg
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,572
|
yes - the "usual troublemakers" it is hard to believe that we cared so much about the direction that this sim was taking to make a big issue about it, with hindsight, we should have simply deleted it from our HD and moved to something else, which eventually we all end up doing. I'm pretty much right there with you. Up until Wags pulled his BS with getting me banned from E3/Warthog deal I was buying everything they sold, alpha/beta or not. Not any longer. And my squadron, which at one point had 30 members isn't flying it much. Most do not own any new modules except for FC3. This is a direct result of several separate issues that go back in a straight line with ED and their "we are always right no matter what". I could point out all the problems with what they've done since the release of A-10C but frankly I just don't feel like taking the 15 minutes to put them in order. Lets just say that Wags' bad attitude towards me screwed him out of two real life, current fighter pilots offering to help (within legal limits of course). Wags felt it was better to cut his nose off to spite his face. And since I'm pointing fingers I'll tell you that it was directly related to how fuxored everything is about the missiles. But hey, good luck with that ED. Can't wait to see the new F/A-18 with 10 mile max range AMRAAMS...................Cuz I will tell you that both of my pilot buddies stopped flying FC3 because of this. Absolutely borked was the comment I most remember. There were others, using all kinds of foul language as well..........LOL Either way, ED is cutting their own throat. TBH I think they'd be happier just getting the occasional person who buys way too much software and doesn't use it much. That way they don't have to 1) deal with that person, cuz he'll never understand if there's a bug or issue 2) they usually don't post in forums and if they do it's a n00b question that gets answered and their post count ends up less than a dozen over several years.
|
|
#4282037 - 07/26/16 11:18 AM
Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0
[Re: Frederf]
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
3rd Planet, Sun
|
No one is expecting perfection - and considering how superficial the experience of most people (like me) with this sim and add ons (=0) is , most people don't even notice anything.
The problem starts with people like Rugg that take their hobby seriously and expect more not less, like he described, his interactions with the developer were not necessarily the one both parties expected.
Unfortunately - for those still deeply engaged in it, the frustration level remains high, thankfully my interest is only making skins and flying FC3, so I am blissfully unaware of any technical shortcomings.
and thanks to their not releasing templates in a timely manner (like the AH-64, OH-58, MiG-29, Su-33, F-86F, MiG-15 and F-5E) I can dedicate myself more and more to making skins for P3D-FSX.
|
|
#4282119 - 07/26/16 03:16 PM
Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0
[Re: LOF_Rugg]
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,477
HomeFries
Air Dominance Project
|
Air Dominance Project
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,477
|
Anyone remember Stormin' Norman? He was involved with LOMAC originally. I remember Stormin' from the Flanker 2 days (pre-Ubi ). One of his posts in response to a troll was the first time I had seen the term "Asshat" used. It was so perfect, and gives me a chuckle to this day.
-Home Fries
"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty." - Robert A. Heinlein
The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
|
|
#4282125 - 07/26/16 03:47 PM
Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0
[Re: HomeFries]
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 333
RSoro01
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 333
New Hampshire, USA
|
Anyone remember Stormin' Norman? He was involved with LOMAC originally. I remember Stormin' from the Flanker 2 days (pre-Ubi ). One of his posts in response to a troll was the first time I had seen the term "Asshat" used. It was so perfect, and gives me a chuckle to this day. Carl was quite the guy. I enjoyed working with him.
|
|
#4282127 - 07/26/16 03:50 PM
Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0
[Re: Force10]
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,477
HomeFries
Air Dominance Project
|
Air Dominance Project
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,477
|
I'll post my $.02 here since it's apparent we have some ED mods reading this thread.
ED makes a great sim, and I've been a loyal customer of Eagle Dynamics since 1995 (Flanker 1.0 for DOS for those keeping score). While I have constructively criticized some of ED's business practices, I have also defended their rights to operate their own forums as they see fit.
But just because they have the right to operate their forums their own way does not mean that they are going about it in the right way. This latest example of permabanning a high profile community modder emphasizes what is wrong.
Bottom Line: Eagle Dynamics has a major public perception problem.
The perception about heavy handed moderation is pervasive and well documented, and I won't beat the dead horse. However, disallowing donations in the EULA is heavy handed and I would argue that it is also non-binding in accordance with common law. As long as we're not talking about an expected donation with quid pro quo, there should be no restrictions on the willing transfer of property without any other expectations. I understand why ED wishes to maintain control over payware (hint: it's not all about greed), but by coming hard down on modders who depend on the generosity of others, they are coming down hardest on their most loyal supporters: those who have put their time into making ED's product better for everybody. Forbidding donations is clumsy and legally questionable; enforcing this is short sighted and ham-fisted. All this does is turn ED's strongest advocates into vocal opponents, and the more widespread the modder, the more people that get a negative perception when the modder and his works are gone. In political terms, this is known as an "unforced error."
So ED, if you're reading, here's what I recommend:
1) Strike the donation text from your EULA, or reword it to specify that you refer only to quid pro quo "donationware" (which is effectively payware).
2) Reinstate those who were banned for these trivialities, and make a public forum apology to the modders by name. This one may hurt, but you need the modders more than the modders need DCS, if only because the modders can influence groups of consumers. After all, even a virtual monopoly has its limits.
3) Handle future confrontations initially with a lighter touch. One catches more flies with honey than vinegar. You'll find that most people are acting in good faith, and misunderstandings are exactly that. In my time as a moderator (different forum) I've had to ban exactly one person, and that was after there was some bad faith involved (some of it which unfortunately affected this forum a few years back). Permabans should be for the bad actors, not the backbone of your community.
Disclaimer: I have a donationware program that is linked on the ED forums, though this is a C program that does not modify anything within DCS.
-Home Fries
"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty." - Robert A. Heinlein
The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
|
|
#4282134 - 07/26/16 04:07 PM
Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0
[Re: RSoro01]
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
3rd Planet, Sun
|
excellent post they are coming down hardest on their most loyal supporters: those who have put their time into making ED's product better for everybody
this has been the tried and tested method of alienating their community - tested and tried over 10 years !!! Anyone remember Stormin' Norman? He was involved with LOMAC originally. I remember Stormin' from the Flanker 2 days (pre-Ubi ). One of his posts in response to a troll was the first time I had seen the term "Asshat" used. It was so perfect, and gives me a chuckle to this day. Carl was quite the guy. I enjoyed working with him. the good old days
|
|
#4282187 - 07/26/16 07:00 PM
Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0
[Re: Force10]
|
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
|
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
|
Been a long time since I saw Stormin post online anywhere, literally can't remember where or when, but it was a long time ago.
I do remember his visibility during the Flanker 2.5 release, though.
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
|
|
#4282196 - 07/26/16 07:24 PM
Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0
[Re: Force10]
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,836
RainMan
Non-Indoctrinated
|
Non-Indoctrinated
Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,836
Norman, Oklahoma, USA
|
IIRC, Stormin' Norman was last active on the ED forums when the Kinney Interactive F-35 kickstarter was in full swing; I do remember Stormin endorsing him, only to see the kickstarter ultimately fail...
PC: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz @ 4.6GHz | MSI GTX 980 4GB | ASUS Maximus VII Hero | G.SKILL Trident X Series 32GB RAM | 27" Acer Monitor (2560x1440) | 512GB Samsung 850 PRO SSD | Win10 Pro 64bit
Official VKB North America Sales & Support
|
|
|
|