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#4281836 - 07/25/16 04:47 PM Re: ED/Modding conversation [Re: Gliptal]  
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Originally Posted By: Gliptal
Point is, it was neither damaging nor false. They actually called it "trolling". But whatever, I'll wait my month.


Interesting. According to their own rules, trolling on other forums is not an offense. Only trolling on ED's forum.


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#4281849 - 07/25/16 05:19 PM Re: ED/Modding conversation [Re: Force10]  
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- Ice Offline
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Well, "damaging" is correct, but it is not "false." It's not like it's our fault that the cracks on their product are glaring....


- Ice
#4281853 - 07/25/16 05:30 PM Re: ED/Modding conversation [Re: Force10]  
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you can ask what is the positive outcome from banning people for posting their opinions in other forums ?

does this foster greater community harmony ?

does it stop people from posting ?

does it make people less angry ?

does it make friends ?

no, this is THE most useless and senseless attitude any software developer can take.

#4281859 - 07/25/16 05:41 PM Re: ED/Modding conversation [Re: Force10]  
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Ego trip.


- Ice
#4281861 - 07/25/16 05:53 PM Re: ED/Modding conversation [Re: Force10]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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This again points to the inability to deal with criticism, however poorly or expertly it's presented.

They don't understand that research shows any business that gets only positive reviews is viewed with suspicion. The comments are believed to be paid for, fake, dishonest. If people aren't allowed to see the faults as well as the benefits, and make their own determination as to what outweighs what, they move along. If you won't allow any dissent, it's assumed that's because there is a REAL problem and allowing it to be seen would be disastrous. ED has insecurity bordering on the comical.

Imagine you're in a new town, and you're looking for a place to eat. There are two restaurants nearby. One has a 4 star rating, all 4 stars...from a mere 6 glowing reviews. All of which are 6 months old or older.
Another has a 3 star rating, averaged out of 100 reviews, spread between 4, 3, 2, and 1 star, many of which are within the last 2 months.
Which do you think people will trust more? Which restaurant would you feel better about visiting?

Suppression of negative remarks and removing defamatory trolling comments are NOT the same thing, not at all. Yet if you treat them the same...

Locking and/or deleting a thread from new customer #1235 asking about something, because ED have heard that question too many times already and thinks it's a backhanded way to criticize them, is stupid.
At the very least, give a link to a FAQ with a list of planned features before locking it with a "please check the FAQ before asking as your answer may already be provided."
If you walk in off the street to a store and ask a clerk "when do you close on Sunday?" and the clerk says "Oh my GOD will people STOP ASKING WHEN OUR SUNDAY HOURS ARE ALREADY!!!!!!! GET OUT OF MY STORE NOW!!!!", how do you think that person will feel?

I bet they won't think "Oh, gee, I really messed up, that poor clerk must have to deal with so many idiots like me I should make a concerted effort to help instead of adding to their burden of answering dumb questions." I bet they WILL put a negative review of that store out there despite not actually having purchased anything, because you don't need to have purchased to be treated rudely.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4281946 - 07/25/16 10:39 PM Re: ED/Modding conversation [Re: Force10]  
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I really wish they would just shut their forums down and just release their products. I dont recall seeing this many complaints about forum moderation when LOMAC was still at the Ubi forums. Customer service and public relations with Eagle Dynamics were never their strong points. The only people they want/need over there are beta testers and nothing more. Its quite obvious that is what they really want at those forums; the people they really want actually fly the aircraft IRL and for the most part have no use for simulation software. Almost all of their problems could be solved by shutting that forum down permanently.

#4281956 - 07/25/16 11:01 PM Re: ED/Modding conversation [Re: Force10]  
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Johnny_Redd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Force10

From their forum rules:


Quote:
1.13 Users using other public forums to spread damaging and false information regarding DCS and Eagle Dynamics will forfeit thier posting rights here.

That's an interesting point.
Now what was said?
Was it damaging and false?
Was it damaging?
Was it false?
The way they have worded that it needs to be damaging AND false.
There's nothing to say that a person cant post damaging but true information or post glowing praise no matter how false.
There is some ambiguity in 1.13, But that is par for the course for ED and their moderators. Making it up as they go along.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4281957 - 07/25/16 11:05 PM Re: ED/Modding conversation [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Johnny_Redd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
This again points to the inability to deal with criticism, however poorly or expertly it's presented.

They don't understand that research shows any business that gets only positive reviews is viewed with suspicion. The comments are believed to be paid for, fake, dishonest. If people aren't allowed to see the faults as well as the benefits, and make their own determination as to what outweighs what, they move along. If you won't allow any dissent, it's assumed that's because there is a REAL problem and allowing it to be seen would be disastrous. ED has insecurity bordering on the comical.

Imagine you're in a new town, and you're looking for a place to eat. There are two restaurants nearby. One has a 4 star rating, all 4 stars...from a mere 6 glowing reviews. All of which are 6 months old or older.
Another has a 3 star rating, averaged out of 100 reviews, spread between 4, 3, 2, and 1 star, many of which are within the last 2 months.
Which do you think people will trust more? Which restaurant would you feel better about visiting?

Suppression of negative remarks and removing defamatory trolling comments are NOT the same thing, not at all. Yet if you treat them the same...

Locking and/or deleting a thread from new customer #1235 asking about something, because ED have heard that question too many times already and thinks it's a backhanded way to criticize them, is stupid.
At the very least, give a link to a FAQ with a list of planned features before locking it with a "please check the FAQ before asking as your answer may already be provided."
If you walk in off the street to a store and ask a clerk "when do you close on Sunday?" and the clerk says "Oh my GOD will people STOP ASKING WHEN OUR SUNDAY HOURS ARE ALREADY!!!!!!! GET OUT OF MY STORE NOW!!!!", how do you think that person will feel?

I bet they won't think "Oh, gee, I really messed up, that poor clerk must have to deal with so many idiots like me I should make a concerted effort to help instead of adding to their burden of answering dumb questions." I bet they WILL put a negative review of that store out there despite not actually having purchased anything, because you don't need to have purchased to be treated rudely.




The Jedi Master

Absolutely. Good post.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4281973 - 07/26/16 12:29 AM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss
yes - the "usual troublemakers" biggrin

it is hard to believe that we cared so much about the direction that this sim was taking to make a big issue about it, with hindsight, we should have simply deleted it from our HD and moved to something else, which eventually we all end up doing.

I'm pretty much right there with you. Up until Wags pulled his BS with getting me banned from E3/Warthog deal I was buying everything they sold, alpha/beta or not. Not any longer. And my squadron, which at one point had 30 members isn't flying it much. Most do not own any new modules except for FC3. This is a direct result of several separate issues that go back in a straight line with ED and their "we are always right no matter what". I could point out all the problems with what they've done since the release of A-10C but frankly I just don't feel like taking the 15 minutes to put them in order. Lets just say that Wags' bad attitude towards me screwed him out of two real life, current fighter pilots offering to help (within legal limits of course). Wags felt it was better to cut his nose off to spite his face. And since I'm pointing fingers I'll tell you that it was directly related to how fuxored everything is about the missiles. But hey, good luck with that ED. Can't wait to see the new F/A-18 with 10 mile max range AMRAAMS...................Cuz I will tell you that both of my pilot buddies stopped flying FC3 because of this. Absolutely borked was the comment I most remember. There were others, using all kinds of foul language as well..........LOL

Either way, ED is cutting their own throat. TBH I think they'd be happier just getting the occasional person who buys way too much software and doesn't use it much. That way they don't have to 1) deal with that person, cuz he'll never understand if there's a bug or issue 2) they usually don't post in forums and if they do it's a n00b question that gets answered and their post count ends up less than a dozen over several years.

#4282024 - 07/26/16 09:11 AM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
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Frederf Offline
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You can't buy immunity from unpopularity. Your sales record of retail purchases means zero if your opinion is disruptive to the narrative. That narrative is that DCS products are without errors in the long term. The only acceptable aspects of the products are errors that are about to be fixed, trivial errors which reflect in the pejorative if they are noticed, and things which are perfect. The concept of a significant error which has not been addressed and/or will not be fixed is incompatible.

If you are connected with people who care about simulating the truth and have some knowledge to share it is a very positive experience. If you are seen by the wrong person your discussion of truth is a threat to be fixed. It is only luck which experience you have.

ED doesn't have to change though. They can model simulations with very bad technical errors, AI, or other inhibits to being used fully and the large majority don't notice. If it makes a screenshot that's enough. There is a YouTube video of "First flight, F-5, tutorial" which says everything you need to know. Someone made a tutorial video which is also their first flight.

#4282037 - 07/26/16 11:18 AM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Frederf]  
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Tom_Weiss Offline
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No one is expecting perfection - and considering how superficial the experience of most people (like me) with this sim and add ons (=0) is , most people don't even notice anything.

The problem starts with people like Rugg that take their hobby seriously and expect more not less, like he described, his interactions with the developer were not necessarily the one both parties expected.

Unfortunately - for those still deeply engaged in it, the frustration level remains high, thankfully my interest is only making skins and flying FC3, so I am blissfully unaware of any technical shortcomings.

and thanks to their not releasing templates in a timely manner (like the AH-64, OH-58, MiG-29, Su-33, F-86F, MiG-15 and F-5E) I can dedicate myself more and more to making skins for P3D-FSX.


#4282113 - 07/26/16 03:02 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
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LOF_Rugg Offline
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I have been gaming a long time, not just flight sims. Since LOMAC was an UBISoft product I'll reference UBI: I played Ghost Recon for years, starting in 2001. In a squad. I'm still friends with those people. There were all kinds of glitches, bugs and other assorted things wrong with just about every incarnation of that game. UBI allowed discussion on those forums, good bad or indifferent. Not only with GR but also with LOMAC. Anyone remember Stormin' Norman? He was involved with LOMAC originally. He was active on the forums and put up with and responded to negative comments/issues. UBI never went crazy with the ban hammer and to this day still has a healthy and active forum and are selling the hell out of their titles. They are a stronger company with more customer support and backing than you can imagine. Night and day difference between UBI and ED.

As an aside, why isn't Stormin' Norman still with ED? Wags chased him off because of a disagreement and Matt Wagner has control issues. Sad, cuz Norman was a great guy.

#4282119 - 07/26/16 03:16 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: LOF_Rugg]  
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HomeFries Offline
Air Dominance Project
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Originally Posted By: LOF_Rugg
Anyone remember Stormin' Norman? He was involved with LOMAC originally.

I remember Stormin' from the Flanker 2 days (pre-Ubi biggrin ). One of his posts in response to a troll was the first time I had seen the term "Asshat" used. It was so perfect, and gives me a chuckle to this day.


-Home Fries

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
- Robert A. Heinlein

The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

#4282125 - 07/26/16 03:47 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: HomeFries]  
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RSoro01 Offline
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Originally Posted By: HomeFries
Originally Posted By: LOF_Rugg
Anyone remember Stormin' Norman? He was involved with LOMAC originally.

I remember Stormin' from the Flanker 2 days (pre-Ubi biggrin ). One of his posts in response to a troll was the first time I had seen the term "Asshat" used. It was so perfect, and gives me a chuckle to this day.

Carl was quite the guy. I enjoyed working with him.

#4282127 - 07/26/16 03:50 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
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HomeFries Offline
Air Dominance Project
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I'll post my $.02 here since it's apparent we have some ED mods reading this thread.

ED makes a great sim, and I've been a loyal customer of Eagle Dynamics since 1995 (Flanker 1.0 for DOS for those keeping score). While I have constructively criticized some of ED's business practices, I have also defended their rights to operate their own forums as they see fit.

But just because they have the right to operate their forums their own way does not mean that they are going about it in the right way. This latest example of permabanning a high profile community modder emphasizes what is wrong.

Bottom Line: Eagle Dynamics has a major public perception problem.

The perception about heavy handed moderation is pervasive and well documented, and I won't beat the dead horse. However, disallowing donations in the EULA is heavy handed and I would argue that it is also non-binding in accordance with common law. As long as we're not talking about an expected donation with quid pro quo, there should be no restrictions on the willing transfer of property without any other expectations. I understand why ED wishes to maintain control over payware (hint: it's not all about greed), but by coming hard down on modders who depend on the generosity of others, they are coming down hardest on their most loyal supporters: those who have put their time into making ED's product better for everybody. Forbidding donations is clumsy and legally questionable; enforcing this is short sighted and ham-fisted. All this does is turn ED's strongest advocates into vocal opponents, and the more widespread the modder, the more people that get a negative perception when the modder and his works are gone. In political terms, this is known as an "unforced error."


So ED, if you're reading, here's what I recommend:

1) Strike the donation text from your EULA, or reword it to specify that you refer only to quid pro quo "donationware" (which is effectively payware).

2) Reinstate those who were banned for these trivialities, and make a public forum apology to the modders by name. This one may hurt, but you need the modders more than the modders need DCS, if only because the modders can influence groups of consumers. After all, even a virtual monopoly has its limits.

3) Handle future confrontations initially with a lighter touch. One catches more flies with honey than vinegar. You'll find that most people are acting in good faith, and misunderstandings are exactly that. In my time as a moderator (different forum) I've had to ban exactly one person, and that was after there was some bad faith involved (some of it which unfortunately affected this forum a few years back). Permabans should be for the bad actors, not the backbone of your community.


Disclaimer: I have a donationware program that is linked on the ED forums, though this is a C program that does not modify anything within DCS.


-Home Fries

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
- Robert A. Heinlein

The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

#4282134 - 07/26/16 04:07 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: RSoro01]  
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Tom_Weiss Offline
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excellent post smile

Quote:
they are coming down hardest on their most loyal supporters: those who have put their time into making ED's product better for everybody


this has been the tried and tested method of alienating their community - tested and tried over 10 years !!! wink



Originally Posted By: RSoro01
Originally Posted By: HomeFries
Originally Posted By: LOF_Rugg
Anyone remember Stormin' Norman? He was involved with LOMAC originally.

I remember Stormin' from the Flanker 2 days (pre-Ubi biggrin ). One of his posts in response to a troll was the first time I had seen the term "Asshat" used. It was so perfect, and gives me a chuckle to this day.

Carl was quite the guy. I enjoyed working with him.


the good old days smile

#4282187 - 07/26/16 07:00 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Feb 2000
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
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Space Coast, USA
Been a long time since I saw Stormin post online anywhere, literally can't remember where or when, but it was a long time ago.

I do remember his visibility during the Flanker 2.5 release, though.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4282196 - 07/26/16 07:24 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
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RainMan Offline
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IIRC, Stormin' Norman was last active on the ED forums when the Kinney Interactive F-35 kickstarter was in full swing; I do remember Stormin endorsing him, only to see the kickstarter ultimately fail...



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#4282209 - 07/26/16 07:46 PM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
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RSoro01 Offline
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AFAIK, he's still program director for Intific Inc.

#4282297 - 07/27/16 05:43 AM Re: Ground Textures Mod 6.0 [Re: Force10]  
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zaelu Offline
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+1 HomeFries, Well said!

I think ED comes to the situation where on some topics needs an opposition negotiator and of course he/it doesn't have one. But all our ideas needs opposition otherwise we lose reason/sensibility from time to time. Because sometimes we think and we are convinced we are right and we can argument it with perfect logic and lawyer language but we don't realize there are other perspectives that completely change the situation(s).


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