Barring STDs or the girl trying to trap a man with a pregnancy, it's not a bad thing except for the awful things girls can do- they can assent to sex and then claim rape after, it happens more than people think or admit. She can gossip about the guy to other women, word spreads about the guy among his social group he's not aware of them gossiping about. We really have no idea what others are saying about us behind our backs- especially women. They can be making up all kinds of stuff, like how lousy you are in bed, or what a weak man you are or what have you, who knows. Sometimes another female friend of mine would tell me what other women gossip about that spreads around that they don't say to your face, and it's horrible. Men can do this too, call the girls they've slept with sluts and this sort of thing, but it generally stays with the guys as guy humor that they bond over, males aren't out to destroy females socially the way women actually enjoy doing that to others. That's why I tend to get in and out of situations with women I don't know to keep that down to a minimum.

The best advice I can give in relationships, and I'll be summary: get involved with women you like, but aren't crazy head over heels in love with. That's the most stable balance I can offer. When men are absolutely crazy over the girl, they won't act right- their feelings will make them basically worship the woman, put her up on a pedestal above him, put himself out for her, just like the storybook prince- and the irony is that is the opposite of what turns women on. Soon after that, she'll perceive herself as higher status than her partner who is putting so much effort into her, it kills attraction in them, it's as repellent to them like daylight is to Dracula.

Women you're not really crazy about, you don't act like you're crazy about- and that appeals to their hypergamy, because they perceive you as higher status, and it's in their nature to want to want to nurture your love out of you to them like a seed to a plant, not get the plant upfront like that. They are wired to like that challenge. Guys who throw themselves at women are not a challenge, they give it all away, they perceive these guys as lower status. Something to work for is worth having, something that is easy to obtain and throws itself at you is cheap.

I've probably known maybe one guy who was in totally in love, but had the stamina and discipline not to act like he was in love, and that's probably what kept her glued to him as long as it did (she was a model, quite attractive to his standards, he wasn't rich or handsome, just really playing it cool as if she wasn't all that- he did that for years, I'm not sure how that eventually turned out or how long he could keep that act going).

If you aren't crazy head over heels in love with someone then what's the point of having a relationship? Here's what you do, find a woman who *deserves* to be put on that pedestal (I'm sure a lot of fathers here will agree, I do it for different reasons).

Yes Mechanus, some women have *earned* that pedestal many times over, if you find one like this then try to recognize that fact before it's too late (hopefully she'll have lots of patience with you). It won't turn her off and if you take it too far she'll tell you.

Of course I'm talking long term relationships, as always.

I with I could tell you otherwise, but that's not how it works. Men and women are not attracted to each other the same way. Men have to accept this, or they're living in a cloud of some sort.

Women love you, but it's in their way, not yours- not the way you love them. If we weren't products of the 20th Century narrative, you would think much differently than you do about this. Quite simply, we've been programmed with notions that are quite off the mark, i.e., the way it really happens don't seem very romantic to us- therefore, what's wrong isn't the romantic narrative, it must be the behavior that's wrong, chalk it up to a few bad individuals rather than the narrative being the incorrect story how this all works.

If you think that women love us the way we love them, that doesn't work- otherwise, they would just love women, too, for the same reasons, right? (or we would love men). So that right there should tell you something.

Have you ever noticed this dynamic in your life, I don't how much you've dated, but it looks like this: the women you might have liked a lot or were attracted to didn't so much like you as much, and the ones who liked you were more off your radar. The reason why is the one who cares less 'wins'- the one who cares less is perceived by the other as the catch. With women that is especially pronounced in their sorting formulas.

It's weird, because for some bizarre reason, I remember becoming attracted to some girls who were considered far less attractive than the ones who liked me, and those less attractive girls had all the options- and for those reasons could act and behave in any nasty way they wanted, and I would put up with it. Meanwhile, the attractive girls who liked me would go out of their way for me, and to me it was "meh" . That really is the phenomenon at work, but it's more pronounced now more than ever in favor of women.

With women in the work force almost on par with most men in their peer group, with men's jobs being replaced or automated by computers, with men not being in short supply and with a healthy mortality rate, men are losing their collective status, while women on the other hand are becoming increasingly more narcissistic, raised to believe that they can do not only everything that men can do, but are more attractive, on top of that, and it shows. In places like Silicon Valley where men outnumber women, even the less attractive girls are starting to have lots of attitude like they are very attractive and deserve the very high status males. I wouldn't buy stock in men until something drastically shifts the other way again.

Rather than the romantic narrative we've been conditioned to believe, it probably works more according to supply/demand principles. Not romantic, sure, but the truth doesn't necessarily have to be something we like.

As far as the point of relationships, I suspect that it's nature's design to propagate the species, not concerned with what happens to individuals, that's the point. The feelings you have aren't a choice- you have them whether you want them or not. That seems to be the scheme of sorts, whether you want it or not you have this thing nagging at you making you want to be with a woman you become attached to you want and take care of her. Her agenda is to make sure to attract the right male for her and her offspring. The point is that it's the way life reproduces itself, puts these chemicals in us which makes us bond long enough to have children and raise them to a certain age, that's about the time it takes for the infatuation phase to wear off- long to enough to reproduce and give the offspring a healthy chance. After that, it's not per se necessary to even stay with the same women, the species reproduces more if the man goes off and impregnates others rather than stays anchored to one woman over his lifetime.

The narrative on top of that written by poets and stuff making it sound better than that- that's what it may be high time to question.

Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack. - General George S. Patton.

But I stress this too, the positives about recognizing all of this for what it is- once that's done, it's much more empowering. When you figure out women, you really start to figure out human behavior across the board, that's what it comes down to, understand how much men's behavior consciously or subconsciously is tethered to women, how much the sexes behave really because of one another, even in seemingly unrelated ways. Men today probably do a lot, like discover things, accumulate wealth and resources, build things owing to their primitive instincts to attract women. That's probably what is guiding the human species like it does. From building huts to space stations, all to build worlds to impress the opposite sex is in our DNA.

When I started viewing women much differently than I did before, something profound happened- virtually overnight, women started showing more interest in me than they ever did before. Something in my body language and attitude was intriguing to them at this point, and I really do see it as an advantage, not a disadvantage.

hehhehh. I like this quote.

And to be sure, there are men simply chalk what I'm saying is cynical or a bad attitude, it's not- I don't say the things I say because I'm cynical or have a bad attitude. It is what is, men have to be deprogrammed from probably the biggest lie that there is if they want to know the truth about their attraction to women and vice versa. It's not any more cynical to point out what men find attractive about women's physical beauty, it is what it is.

It's likely that it's shocking for most men to confirm that there is something about women that doesn't seem 'quite right' based on the way that they're raised and conditioned to believe- because why didn't their parents or other trusted people raise them tell them differently? Why didn't the movies and the fairy tales tell them differently, why is everyone misleading them?

Love is chemical, that is shown by science. They've shown this in a species such as the vole, which pair bonds for life, that simply denying the chemicals responsible for the behavior changes the behavior of the vole:

http://knowingneurons.com/2013/02/13/why-prairie-voles-fall-in-love-a-chemical-romance/

It's true for us as well, I suppose it's our vanity and vulnerability which doesn't want to believe this, we of course believe something entirely different, and it calls into question our own existence and humanity to unplug from this narrative and realize the tremendous lie we've been told.

I'm not cynical, I'd wave my magic wand if I could to make everyone happy as they want it if it's the story book version they'd prefer. It's just not that way.

Amen

Oh, and on that note: I got engaged last week, and the two of us couldn't be happier. We've both waited a long time for the right person to come along, but we are glad we did not give up and lose hope along the way.

Great song about looking for a cynical girl.

Well men are attracted to women who look about as pretty as another man does, that happens all the time, right? It's not cynical to point out what men are attracted to about women, that's taken for granted, everyone knows this.

It's not cynical to explain how women are wired if that is the truth. My motivation isn't cynical- I'm not explaining things because I wish to make people feel bad about themselves, but to help them understand, this is where the translation isn't synching up.

Women are not attracted the way men are attracted, and despite what the pop psychologists and relationship experts say about couples and trying to reconnect them when the passion falls out, it does not work like that.

Attraction is not a choice. You cannot cajole it or bargain it or obligate it the way the Dr. Phils think you can. All that education and yet they don't grasp that love at its basic causes is chemical (or they know it and don't want to admit it)- you may have heard the analogy that love is like a drug in music or whatnot, because it is, it behaves the same way as a chemical addiction. The bonding hormones have been identified and described as to how they work. Maybe it's man's curse that he is so smart so as to discover these things, it ruins the 'magic,' as it were.

The way men and women feel attraction is quite different. You just don't see handsome men lining up to date or marry some rich old crone the way attractive women can do. You don't see women visiting prostitutes or as interested in Pr0n the way men are. When Playgirl magazine came out, the publishers realized immediately that women weren't the customer base, they weren't interested in looking at naked men the way men like to look at Playmate Centerfolds. It was the homosexual men who were the customers. Men and women are different, the strange thing is the way it's hiding in plain sight, and it's because of the wrong messages permeating society about how it works which obscures it.

So I say again, it's not about being cynical, because for men there is hope. It's actually women who are in a sadder state than men, as both sexes tend to objectify the other, that is, they have an ideal of the other in mind rather than the way they really are, women's ideals are far more schizophrenic and unfulfilled, their idea of a perfect guy in the end doesn't satisfy them, a perfect guy doesn't offer the mystery and excitement they crave, he's already figured out and the women are a mess when they realize it because of how they're wired. A perfect guy it turns out is boring, he's not chaotic like a woman's psychology.

Finally, women's entire validation comes from one thing: their ability to attract men. And that is easy to short circuit, that's why you often see these unattractive, lame guys with these hot women, and you may think: "What is the problem here."

A is male

B is an average looking female

C is a very attractive female

A treats C the exact same as B, he is neither overly impressed nor nervous around either, he is comfortable interacting with and charming both as if they look exactly the same.

This puts C in a tailspin, her validation comes entirely from the external source- the man's behavior according to how attractive he thinks she is. If he doesn't put her up a on pedestal because of her looks, she's got nothing, and she knows it. Her attraction level rises substantially for A.

Congratulations Luke! It sounds like both of you were smart about it. Best wishes to you and yours!

Yeah, there's no cynicism there...

I see you're still fond of making such overly broad statements. That is where, at least in part, your credibility is diminished in the eyes of some people here.

Human beings are not merely sexual beings. They can value other aspects of life, and some can even make decisions / commitments without being totally dominated by the hormones/chemicals that happen to be coursing through their body at a given moment.

Sexual attraction obviously plays a big part in most couples' bonding, but a lot of people with their heads screwed on right take additional factors into consideration before making commitments. It takes more than a chemical change in a human brain at age 20 something (or whatever) to keep a couple happily together into their 60's (or later).

I think the english language does us a disservice in wrapping up multiple aspects of love into that single word. Ancient Greek had multiple words (eg. eros, philia, agape, pragma, ludus, philautia )to more accurately convey the different types of love. Too much focus upon just two or three of those makes for a very shallow person, and poor prospects for a lifetime of happiness.

Mechanus, you can know your own experiences, and you can choose to believe whichever of the things you have been told or read. But you can't know everyone else's experiences.

Some of us have lived, or know other people, who do not match the sweeping statements you sometimes make. Now you could take the attitude/position that they are wrong and you know better (and I think it is safe to say that you have in the past)... but I submit that it would be cynical to do so.

Duuuuude! Congrats!

Pictures required

No, it's that men think of women still in different terms and have a hard time giving this up. It's like saying it's overly broad that men aret attracted to women's beauty, therefore, discard the notion that men are attracted to female beauty. Too broad a statement.

It's likely that the sexes evolved in this way: the males are attracted to the fertile, youthful looks of females, it's called neoteny. Men usually do not report finding old looking women more attractive. Female sexual strategy however doesn't work the same way, that's why you can see younger women paired with older, more powerful or resourceful men.

To say that all men or all women aren't like this is missing the point: all men and women are like this to an extent, it's just a matter of how they perceive their own value and what they think their value 'buys' them. If I have low self esteem or don't view myself as a catch, then the tendency is I will think more attractive women are out of my league, and I may look for other characteristics, for example. I may distrust the more attractive women and my ability to keep one from wandering. That is also shown in experiments in human mate selection, I'm not making this up.

I'll argue the real cynicism is the denial of all this- if anything keeps people in the dark and in ignorance, it's the attempt to addle people with the romantic narrative, that's the thing that shackles people to relationships that go bad or makes people unhappy, thinking that they've missed out on things granted to others.

I'm not making up the chemical basis for attraction, again, this has all been identified. The made up thing, the questionable thing is the storybook narrative.

I wonder, page after page, why you are on such a mission to prove to everyone else (or, as you might put it "liberate everyone else from") the thought that your ideas about partner selection are even remotely valid.

I mean, let's assume you really found the holy grail. You, one of the 1% that actually understand how women work. You've got it all figured out and could write a book about it (in fact one might argue you already have... here.)

Why then aren't you either happily married (if you believe in monogamy), or living like Hugh Hefner in a mansion bought for with the money of your beautiful spoiled-rich hotel heiresses (plural intended)? Why would someone who really has females figured out even have the time to post on an internet message board dedicated to flight sims and general computer games? Don't you have a model waiting for you, or two?

Because you see: the thing that puts your whole "presence" here on feets of clay is precisely the way you run about trying to convince everyone else of your theories, trying to invalidate any other guy's notion voiced here on the board about how relationships work.

We know we've members here who by all outside apperance live a very happy marriage. OG, Dart, Mark come to mind as they share most about their private life, but there are plenty more. Thing is, I see none of them going round and round trying to convince you or me that their approach to dating somehow was the "way of the superior male". Somehow they just don't feel the urge.


Want to know what I believe? I think deep down you are a hellish insecure boy. You want either of two things to happen by posting here: That someone comes along who restores back your faith in women (who quite obviously did something very cruel to you) and gives you back the ability to believe in a relationship between man and woman which is NOT based on transaction of intangible goods. Or that someone comes along and confirms everything you say, to the letter, so you while you would still be unhappy about the state of your affairs you'd at least have the feeling that no one else has found a better way and it's not your fault.


Now, everyone's free to use the message boards of this planet for his personal self-help session, but the problem with your approach is that you are installing things into people less secure in their experiences than the "old crowd" here. Bad things. Negative, cynical beliefs. I do actually wonder how you are set for real-life friends, because that atidude is toxic and not likely to have guys hang out with you who are clean in their own spirit.

And believe me, admits all the criticism you caught from me the past month there really is a part left that wants to help you, and I think others here are doing the same even if subconcious. But you aren't open and listening, which is why you are still locked in a very ugly world with very ugly rules. I truly hope you find a way out of the maze in your head.

Good luck.

Because of the above- because I wouldn't survive in marriage. But keep in mind this: I'm not the only one. It's just not as common that men cross that line that I've explained.

I've explained often why I talk about this, I'll do it again: the topic is interesting to me. And there is an interest in me to explain what I've found. It would be the same thing with any of you and topic of interest and talk about it.

You can insult me as you seem to be fond of doing, it changes nothing about what I've said. I'm in it for the topic itself and to help people who want to understand things if it seemed like a mystery to them before. That is my motivation as I've said.

The thing that I think is wrong that I often hear men say is that women are a mystery- they actually aren't so mysterious, the female mystique is only because men often just don't want to hear about it. They're too perfect in men's eyes, except for the few bad apples, not understanding what women as a whole are all about.

If women are playing games, they run hot and cold, they're not being mysterious. If they seem unpredictable and send mixed messages, it's because the man is doing something wrong- when they want to take you to bed, they don't communicate mixed signals. It's men's egos that want to believe otherwise, men often want to believe the women are just more mysterious rather than the way they are really behaving in the ways the do because of the imperative of female mate selection. Men want to believe of course that all the time they invest should pay off like the narrative tells them, only then to see the unexplained mystery of women come and and then go or change behavior, chalk it up to feminine mystique, and then forget about it. That's why I am here explaining what I do. It's men's ego which don't want to be bruised and which wants to believe that women are attracted to them in the same way they are attracted to women for what they are which gets in the way of seeing women for what they are. Like I said, I am actually genuinely interested in the discussion, which for me of course is a debate because I realize many men aren't ready yet to see it the way it's explained.

Like RSColonel, I have some consternation that someone might actually believe the misogonistic advice you are giving. Do you think we are 10 year old boys who need to be told about females ? You lecture us like we are in some reeducation camp and have to have our reality changed to yours.

If you think you are being insulted, you bring it on yourself. As said, some people were actually trying to help you.

Why should they? I don't know to be honest if they should or not. I'm saying what I say and it's for them to decide. Just ignore what I'm saying if what I'm saying sounds like 2 + 2 = 9. No harm no foul, right?

One part of me says they shouldn't believe me- if they honestly feel more comfortable with trends are being what they are, then it's not really anything I can do for them, they would rather not know.

My final word on this is that the divorce rates being what they are and the way they favor women should make men feel uncomfortable, and that those things are the result of society favoring women, but you think I am the misogynist. Most men consciously or subconsciously would do things like shield a women they don't know with their own bodies before they would a man, help a woman out in distress before a man, or give up their seat to a woman on a lifeboat so they go down with the ship before they would other men. It's not likely those same women would do the same for us. Consciously and subconsciously, most men are viewed by other men and by women as disposable utilities, basically when a man cannot do something or provide someone with some service, he is gone from society, it doesn't want him. He's no use, unlike an attractive woman placed in the same situation can coast- and men as a whole don't do a whole lot to really do anything to help themselves or each other to balance it out, they're just happy to get female validation. I think this is all subconsciously the way we're wired and it's part of human behavior and our evolution, and we see the practical results of it.

I've given people the choice, believe one thing or the other, I don't want to force people. Nothing I say here sounds interesting or plausible- fine, I won't say it any longer. Good luck then.