Hello First post here!

Since my HOTAS Cougar gimbal broke down i've been looking for a better solution and also a cooler one! Then i stumbled up on this (f-16) shaped controller. Supposed made by the Firm Ami instruments Oklahoma (now L-3 Link) and it looks like a flight training device. Its got a trim button for controlling the trim of the stick it self, why would you want to do that? Mini-motors and servos control the angle of the stick, but you can move the stick also by yourself. It's a really nice and heavy piece..but does the Cougar stick fit!? Does anyone knows more about this controller?! Help appreciated!

The stick:



Gears, servos and motors

Stick opened, just want to see what's inside...exciting!

You could probably change out the stick grip mount for one that's TM Cougar/Warthog spec with relatively little trouble, but I'm actually more interested in the stick base and all its motors and servos.

Put another way: industrial-grade force-feedback! Just imagine having realistic trim and centering forces in RoF or DCS with that thing! But to do that, it would need DirectInput FFB support...

More photos from the gears and servos. what i do know is that the mini-moter moves the stick left or right,forward and back. My guess the blue servo (servo Baraboo) is for calculation the stick's angle. Then there are these Helipot Mexico (pot meters?) maybe for smaller adjustments.


gears:





Electronics & connections:





If any knows more about this controller and working, please let me know.

Owh I like that name!, would you need FFB also for trim? I guess i can rewire the cables in a way that the trim buttons fires the gears.

It's a perfect fit...now rewire the electronics..

Ideally, the trim wouldn't be linked to whatever switches you press, but the sim software itself.

The hat trim may make sense for a fixed-wing craft, but DCS also has a few helicopter modules where it's basically "press and release to center here", alongside having stall shaker effects and less resistance at lower airspeeds, among other things. Those are things you can't just emulate by button presses alone.

Ideally, you would be able to dig up some documentation on this thing and its electronics, like the protocol it expects to drive the control loading motors, which would be enough to eventually yield a working DirectInput FFB driver. Maybe we should get LocNar/Okona in here.

Nice work on fitting the Cougar grip, by the way! This is going to be the start of something truly great.

Just for my knowlegde, when you trim a plane, does the stick itself moves and stays in a certain angle? When i power the motor it does, and since the original stick got only one button for trimming i think that this device is for learning trimming. does Anyone knows using there FFB stick trimming has effect on the stick?

Btw NamelessPFG thanks for the compliments, was relatively easy.

"Ideally, you would be able to dig up some documentation "

I tried, eventually contacted the company, but they cannot give my any information due to export control issues.
They could say however that it was used as a flight training device (but that i already knew)

BTW Wondering if i could use a Sidewinder force feedback controller and connect them to the motors of my setup.

In some planes, eg. Bf 109 with stabilizer adjust instead trim tabs for elevator, the stick move with trim adjust - and depends on how this was modeled in flight sims, some do correctly, some use a generic trim to please several "simmers" focused in "fun".

I think your best choice - without documentation and know how this work on these training - is try adapt this base for force feedback with MS FF2B electronics. Will be need a new power circuit to supply current for these big motors.

In other professional interfaces for military aircraft trainer is see a serial or parallel interface - something that will be difficult to adapt for actual flight simulators and their Dinput joystick controllers.

This "hacker" can be used as base:

http://www.simprojects.nl/ms_siderwinder_ff2_hack.htm

In your pictures are show a spring in the mechanism, what is their function?

I can't speak to fly by wire, but everything I've flown (both direct and hydraulic control) has had the stick move with the trim. This may be more reactive than causal (it is in direct control), but the job of the trim tab is to move the entire control surface to offset how its movement affects airflow. For example, trimming the nose down moves the elevator trim tab up, which has the effect of pushing the elevator down. This in turn affects the position of the controller. This is actually quite useful, as you can get the stick to where you want it, then use the hat to trim out the resistance (i.e. trim until there is no tension in your hand).

That is how it works in planes where you adjust the elevator tab with the trim. In some cases like the Bf109 you adjust the angle of the whole horizontal stabilizer when trimming. In this case the neutral position of the stick should remain the same.

I am very curious about this project. I still think a lot about building a full size FFB control column with some beefy motors and FFB2 controller.

DIY FFB related:

http://bffsimulation.com/hardware.php

I keep noticing that everybody just hacks apart old, out-of-production SWFFB2s for this sorta thing. Good FFB, but again, only four axes (two at significantly reduced resolution), eight buttons and a single POV hat.

Why hasn't anyone developed the FFB equivalent of a BU0836 board yet? I figure that the DirectInput FFB API must be understood well enough by now if USB adapters for the older SWFFB Pro and its digital gameport interface with fully working FFB exist.

This kinda leads to my next point:


See, this would be a promising start to DIY FFB already, right until I see that the FFB drivers/software for this thing only integrate with FSX/Prepar3D and X-Plane.

Needless to say, that's useless for someone looking to make a center-mount stick for Rise of Flight or DCS. Why didn't they just use the standard API that already exists so it works with a wider variety of sims? Not flexible enough for the effects they wanted?

First some more pictures!

Thanks for the feedback guys! I can be wrong but i have the feeling that these motors are only for trimming purpose and not for force feedback. These Swiss-made minimotors are specially made for slow but strong rotating. Also the gear construction looks to be made for a slow but strong effect. When rotated the whole base move into that direction as HomeFries mentioned. The servos must be for send the stick angle and the trim angle to the Simulator computer (with that very thick cable) Then there a these 2 circle assemblies (with the Ami logo on it) these must be made for resistance and such.

In your pictures are show a spring in the mechanism, what is their function?

There are 2 springs to level the stick, its actually smartly done, there is 1 spring used for each angle, it's a very interesting construction, especially for DIY flightstick builders. Going to post a video and some pictures.
Also there's springs on the gears, my guess it's to tighten or dampen the movement a bit, it does not do much.

Any thoughts of the original stick? (see the first photos), for what kind of airplane could this simulator be used. Feedback appreciated!

With this last picture I think I figure the gimbal mechanism, looks the classical one spring per axis pincer gimbal used in early Tm, CH and most R/C stick gimbals (before "digital" times).

If this gear and servo (probable a kind o potentiometer) is for cancel the spring force in gimbal for fly the plane leveled this dont require simulator interface, just press the button until the motors change gimbal stick position to new center.

In old R/C and CH sticks are a mechanical trim that change the potentiometer center position for the gimbal position necessary for fly "hands off".

This AMI seems make this adjust turning the gimbal with motors.

Oke found out that my "AMI" Minimotor use the following power: Nominal voltage 12V and terminal resistance 9,7 OHm

However the The AC/DC supply from the MS Sidewinder FF2 delivers 24Vdc to the to the main PCB. 1 Motor current is around +/-0.7A max, with 8.5 ohm motors. The voltage itself is controlled by the ciruits.

Question: Can i use the Minimotors on the MS Sidewinder, looks like the numbers a almost the same, but i really don't have much electric background.

Any help appreciated...

Been staying out of this for a while, but have some relevant information on the subject as I've been dabbling with control loading since ~2008 and nowadays work for a prominent manufacturer of high end versions of this stuff (having a background in DIY is what got me the job) and pick my boss's brain often. He's worked on some neat projects, including the Air Force One Blackhawk sim (high fidelity, on a motion platform + control loading) used to train pilots to fly the POTUS around.

If you can get the same gears on your stock MSFF motors, that would be the only 'easy' way to do this. Motors have a power supply/drive for each one, and those are very specific to individual setups, generally referred to as a servomechanism where there is much synergy between motor/mechanics/electronics.

Your other alternative is to follow Roland van Roy's formula Sokol for increasing the output power of the stock power supply/drives and use motors properly matched to the new values.

What most people don't seem to appreciate about force feedback, is that the hardware is actually the easy part, and unless you have the software driving it and interfacing with any given sim then you have a paperweight.

That said, I have come up with a scheme for supplying variable left/right error signals based on pretty simple electro-mechanical means, which leads to Pandora's box of complexity.

I used to brainstorm with Roland on this stuff years ago, and he fleshed a circuit design I came up with for this and tested it to good effect. We call it a 'dual driven pot', seen here: http://www.simprojects.nl/images/FF%20idea.JPG on his page about DIF FF interfacing http://www.simprojects.nl/diy_force_feedback_interfacing.htm

With my circuit, you need a separate program extracting airspeed data from a sim (easy for some sims, hard for others). The way the circuit works is the airspeed data goes through a DAC and then to a circuit that generates an inverse of the output. The +output and -output are fed to either side of a pot, to define the max potential voltage and center would be 0vdc so if the pot was centered you would be no output generated. Moving the pot from the center position would generate a variable +vdc or -vdc signal proportional to displacement up to the current max at any given point.

From there trim is an easy electronic offset, however any effects such as landing bumps, stall shakes, machinegun vibration, etc all would need to come from a pre-recorded library if programmed effects and be triggered at the right times by in-game events. Again some sims make this feasible to extract parameters needed, while others do not.

The beauty of using an MSFFII is that MS already made that library of effects and game devs already set up events to trigger them. MSFF was the only of the FF sticks that really did justice in terms of event quality and resolution, it's only crime was form factor and lack of power.

Using it's brains, just hopped up to your needs is still the logical choice since there are way too many wheels to reinvent that will also pigeon-hole you from being able to freely use it in many sims though.

Thanks Locnar for your information! Sadly since my elektronics knowledge is zero to nothing (my elekro-mechanical knowledge is a little bit better) your interfacing ideas looks dazzling to me! But i will try to understand. Luckily i've Found a second hand MSFFII for 10 bucks and waiting eagerly to receive it, and have some first experimentation's.

With some research and help i now know it should be possible to control the motors with the MSFFII; the voltages are kind of the same, if they do a well enough job is still a mystery for me. But some sort of movement will be awesome. Another challenge will be either to use the board from the Cougar or resolder them to use with the MSFFII. my guess the last one and try to keep it on 1 working system is the best choice.

I will keep you guys updated...