Watching a documentary about this World War I battle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jutland

It looks like the British took a slight beating but they didn't go down without a fight either.

They inflicted heavy losses and damages on the German Navy too.

What exactly is the difference at the time between Battle Cruisers, Dreadnought, and Battleships?

They are all floating platform with guns on them and armor on the side.

Yes,but with varying thickness of armour and caliber of guns.

A battlecruiser for instance had the same type of guns as a battleship but gave up armour for increased speed.

There was a program about it on Sunday night on the UK's Channel 4, I recorded it but have not had the time to watch it yet.

It is available on their streaming service

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/jutland-wwis-greatest-sea-battle/on-demand/64216-001

That's the one I am watching.

Wife was going out to work this afternoon but it has been cancelled so I was going to watch it then, Ah well there is always tomorrow.

is the program any good?

Thanks for the link Alicatt I missed that one, will watch it later on. With the centenary memorials coming up on the 31st of this month I have been watching a few as well.

I enjoyed this one, available through BBC IPlayer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05qqhcn/scotlands-war-at-sea-1-the-dreadnoughts-of-scapa-flow

There is a memorial taking place at the Forth Bridge this Sat. [img:gal:269025742ccd7c9280]http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2016/05/full-

http://www.ww100scotland.com/news/national-commemorations-announced-for-battle-of-jutland/




Awesome gun platforms but with a terrible loss of life when they blow up though.

Did they ever find out what was actually wrong with those "Bloody Ships" that made them so prone to sudden explosion? I remember there being a few theories about it but not sure if they pinned it down.

Mick.

Didn't we have a similar thread just recently? Besides the better German AP rounds one of the main problems in the Royal Navy was the lax handling of gun powder. Security doors were kept open contrary to orders to improve reloading/firing rate and powder cartridges were stored were they shouldn't have been.

The battle itself was a minor tactical victory for the Kriegsmarine but an operational/strategic victory for the RN.

Yes we did. With how often CG visits these boards I'm surprised he didn't notice the recent thread on Jutland. Either that or he just wanted to start his own thread about the same subject.

Don't you mean the Kaiserlichemarine?

Fascinating and informative programme.
It was a victory for Great Britain as was the Battle of Britain in the next war in that it denied Germany's strategy and plans.
Jellicoe's decision to withdraw in the face of torpedo attack was a good strategy in the long run as it enabled the effective blockade of Germany to be maintained.

Agreed. Unfortunately for Jellicoe the British public at the time was extremely critical of him and his leadership which IMHO was not warranted.

Ooops.

^ For a relation of 7:4 for the british, the "Kaiserliche Marine" did a "good job".


Losses of The Battle of Jutland/Skager Rak-Schlacht:

German casualties:
11 ships = 61 180 tons
2 551 officers, 36,000 crew dead

S.M.S. Pommern
S.M.S. Frauenlob
S.M.S. Wiesbaden
Torpedoboot V 48
Torpedoboot S 35
Torpedoboot V 27
Torpedoboot V 4
Torpedoboot V 29
S.M.S. L�tzow (scuttled by crew)
S.M.S. Elbing (scuttled by crew)
S.M.S. Rostock (scuttled by crew)



British casualties
14 ships = 115 025 tons
6 094 officers, 60,000 crew dead

H.M.S. Queen Mary
H.M.S. Indefatigable
H.M.S. Invicible
H.M.S. Defence
H.M.S. Warrior
H.M.S. Black Prince
H.M.S. Tipperary
H.M.S. Nestor (scuttled by crew)
H.M.S. Nomad (scuttled by crew)
H.M.S. Turbulent
H.M.S. Sparrowhawk
H.M.S. Shark
H.M.S. Fortune
H.M.S. Ardent


^ So whatever the outcome, it was not a victory for the british.

From a strategical view the battle had not decided much. England could still maintain its blockade violating international law, while controlling the passages north and south, on the other hand the greatest sea power could not engage, where victory was decided.

The "Baltic project" of Jackie Fisher, an invasion of british ships in Pomerania to help Russia, had to be abandoned. The ships were already being built, flat-built shallow battle cruisers which were then mothballed (some later being converted to aircraft carriers, like the 'Glorious').
The german fleet remained the threat it had been as a 'fleet in being', it was successful in blocking the baltic sea for british warships. When Russia crumbled and had its revolution, all german forces could be diverted towards the west.

The capability of the german fleet forced England to fight a land war they were not used to, and it was finally the intervention of the USA in Europe, which decided the war.

Materially it was a British defeat. The Germans only lost one ship of note, the Lutzow. The pre-dread naught Pommern, while a large ship, should not even have been out she was so outdated. The British lost three significant ships. But the British won in the fact that they psychologically dominated the Germans who never seriously came out to challenge the British again.

I can't remember the author but there was a famous line coined by him concerning the Battle of Jutland: "The prisoner has assaulted his warden but is now back in jail".

How does a mothballed ship participate in a sea battle on 17 November 1917 firing 57 15-inch and 213 4-inch shells?


Where does this 60,000 come from?

Queen Mary - 1274 (killed, wounded, pow)
Indefatigable - 1019
Invincible - 1027
Defence - 903
Black Prince - 857

Tipperary - 197
Turbulent - 109
Sparrowhawk - 6
Shark - 89
Fortune - 69
Ardent - 79

total - 5914

Of the German ships sunk, 2115 killed and 80 wounded for 2195 total.

In all, the British lost 6094 killed, 674 wounded and 177 pow. For the Germans it was 2551 killed and 507 wounded

Numbers are from here (in german): http://www.cicero.de/berliner-republik/wer-siegte-am-skagerrak/37401

"Hipper selbst, der bald Nachfolger Scheers als Chef der Hochseeflotte wurde und die Meuterei auf den Schiffen, den Beginn der Revolution am Ende des Krieges erleben sollte, sah das Ganze stets n�chterner. Wenn man uns fragte, sagte er, was wir uns bei all dem gedacht haben, was wir in der Schlacht taten, so muss ich sagen: Nichts � wir haben uns nichts dabei gedacht. Die britischen Verluste in der Schlacht beliefen sich auf 6945 Offiziere und Mannschaften von rund 60000, die auf 151 Schiffen dabei gewesen waren. F�r die Deutschen lauten die Zahlen: 2921 Tote von rund 36000 Offizieren und Mannschaften auf 99 Schiffen."

I think i misunderstood this, maybe the navy's casualty numbers of the whole war. But will not change the first post for making it easier to follow the discussion.


Glorious was paid off == decommissioned?) after WW1, sry. However it indeed was initially built for Fisher's "Baltic project":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Glorious

What was said in the link was 6945 dead out of ~60,000 men on 151 ships. For the Germans, 2921 dead out of ~36,000 men on 99 ships.

I disagree and so did the Admiralty, because they changed it from turning away and running to turning toward and passing the torpedoes.

I posted this at 4:25 am. I didn't see an existing thread for it.