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#4257482 - 05/07/16 05:14 PM A challenge?  
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kksnowbear Offline
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I'd like to resolve, once and for all, the question of stuttering. Without getting into (whatever it is) that causes thread to go south.

So, a proposal, fair and square:

My big concerns about videos that prove no stuttering are that they are subjective - the show the subject in a favorable light (otherwise they wouldn't be posted), and that they are usually comparing apples to oranges, meaning they're not duplicating the test(s) that are known to show stuttering.

So, I'd like to propose a challenge to any/all that say they have no stutters. Let me describe my 'test methodology' for seeing the stuttering, you make a video proving it doesn't happen, and I'll publicly admit I was wrong. Simple as that.

The methodology I referred to will be described in detail; I have to go out at the moment, but I'm interested in whether there are any takers. I'll check back in later.

If you can run the sim and don't have stutters, this is your chance to "show the money". The 'proof of the pudding', as they say.

And to be clear, it doesn't just have to be one person - in fact, the more the merrier. What's the worst that could happen, you prove your point and get to see me eat crow? smile

So...who's game for a fair challenge?

#4257487 - 05/07/16 05:42 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted By: kksnowbear
What's the worst that could happen, you prove your point and get to see me eat crow? smile

So...who's game for a fair challenge?


I'm not interested in anyone "eating crow." I'm interested in helping people that are experiencing stutters resolving them. You seem more interested proving that they are there rather than finding the right settings to get rid of them. Nobody is doubting that some people are experiencing stutters. They are saying what to try to get rid of them.

If your point is you can find a micro stutter once in awhile for even a millisecond...I don't think anyone on the forum cares but you. Let me know when you are interested in resolving the stutters you say you are having so that the sim is enjoyable.

Did you try removing overclocks, as was suggested?



Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 5.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
(warning)
Intel i7 6700K OC 4.6 Ghz
Corsair Hydro H60 Liquid Cooler
16 GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR4 RAM
2 x EVO 850 1TB SSD Drives (OS & Games)
1 Intel 240GB SSD drive (Scratch drive for videos)
MSI Z170 GAMER M7 Motherboard
EVGA GTX 1080 Founders Edition
Corsair CX850M Power Supply
Acer XB280HK 27" G-SYNC Monitor
Corsair RGB STRAFE MX Silent Keyboard
Windows 10 Home 64 bit

#4257506 - 05/07/16 06:30 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Stache Online content
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Originally Posted By: kksnowbear

So...who's game for a fair challenge?


I am up for the challenge!
This is exactly what I have been asking for.
A standard, repeatable test.

This may help the Dev's locate the issue, if there is one winkngrin

#4257512 - 05/07/16 06:43 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Just my 2 cents: I think the word or problem of stuttering should be defined and the Testing Methodology be the same for each Tester.

#4257567 - 05/07/16 08:51 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: Stache]  
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kksnowbear Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stache

I am up for the challenge!
This is exactly what I have been asking for.
A standard, repeatable test.

This may help the Dev's locate the issue, if there is one winkngrin


Exactly, and precisely what I'd had in mind. A fair challenge. That's all. (And yes, I also believe it would be good to have some empirical data, should the need arise).

I really appreciate your support and willingness to see other perspectives, as well as accepting a fair test.

#4257568 - 05/07/16 08:53 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: Hellshade]  
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Originally Posted By: Hellshade
I'm not interested in anyone "eating crow." I'm interested in helping people that are experiencing stutters resolving them. You seem more interested proving that they are there rather than finding the right settings to get rid of them. Nobody is doubting that some people are experiencing stutters. They are saying what to try to get rid of them.

If your point is you can find a micro stutter once in awhile for even a millisecond...I don't think anyone on the forum cares but you. Let me know when you are interested in resolving the stutters you say you are having so that the sim is enjoyable.

Did you try removing overclocks, as was suggested?


If you don't wish to participate, no worries at all. Totally up to you.

#4257571 - 05/07/16 09:02 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: carrick58]  
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Originally Posted By: carrick58
popcorn

Just my 2 cents: I think the word or problem of stuttering should be defined and the Testing Methodology be the same for each Tester.


I agree completely. The methodology will of course be prescribed and exactly the same test for anyone interested. (I did actually think it would be interesting to consider maybe having more than one, though). ANd you are correct, it would be best to have some definition of stuttering, which I will certainly work on. As a start - for me, 'stutter' is when the otherwise fluid motion of the graphics display is interrupted by a pause of any recognizable length. Of course, I'd have to include that there are certainly varying degrees of both duration and frequency - but primarily if it disrupts fluid playback - never mind actual frame rate, mind you - then it's stutter.

The biggest reason for my definition is that I'd much rather play/watch anything at even 25 frames which is consistent, than I would have 60 FPS and it dips down low enough, often enough, to disrupt the "suspension of disbelief" or "immersion". I think that's a reasonable way to look at it; moreover I believe that's the very thing bothering most of those complaining about stutters.

Thanks for your input.

#4257572 - 05/07/16 09:14 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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I will be curious what the "test standards" will be and how it will be implemented to assure that the CPU/GPU load is exactly the same for everyone. It would seem obvious that it would have to be a scenario. And with a scenario much of the CPU load - that is taken up by the Campaign Engine - won't be there.
That being said I will be curious to give my machine a test run.

#4257575 - 05/07/16 09:23 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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I'm curious if kksnowbear even owns WOFF. If someone just plunked down some cash and they weren't happy with the performance, why would they be uninterested in working with people who offer to help fix their problem? Instead the focus on proving that a problem exists...when obviously people already understand that some folks have stutter issues. That's why they are offering to help in the first place.

On top of that, he hasn't specified exactly when or where he gets the stutters. In fact, he says he'll "eat crow" if someone passes his arbitrary test. Wouldn't you think his first interest would be in getting the settings? Sorry, but I feel there is an entirely different motive here and it has nothing to do with helping anyone.



Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 5.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
(warning)
Intel i7 6700K OC 4.6 Ghz
Corsair Hydro H60 Liquid Cooler
16 GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR4 RAM
2 x EVO 850 1TB SSD Drives (OS & Games)
1 Intel 240GB SSD drive (Scratch drive for videos)
MSI Z170 GAMER M7 Motherboard
EVGA GTX 1080 Founders Edition
Corsair CX850M Power Supply
Acer XB280HK 27" G-SYNC Monitor
Corsair RGB STRAFE MX Silent Keyboard
Windows 10 Home 64 bit

#4257581 - 05/07/16 09:33 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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kksnowbear Offline
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I did ask if we could not turn the thread south, please. I'm offering a fair test, and at least some folks seem to have no problem with it. It's friendly, let's please keep it that way.

(The following should not only adequately describe the test, but also dismiss any concerns about whether I actually own the sim.) To be completely accurate, I have purchased/flown every version of OFF and WOFF since the very first (free) version.

Obviously, you'll need to create/enlist a German pilot so that you wind up in the same location, time and aerodrome as pictured. I hope the screenshot shows sufficient detail for that. Set up the same scenario as shown. For the time being, I am not concerned with how low (or high) your settings are, or any other configuration details, CPU/GPU loading or anything else. Just want to see how your video looks if you fly this QC.

A couple notes:

1. This is a QC, with only two planes, so - if I've understood, it should be less subject to stutters than, say, an actual mission (due to absence of other units/aircraft etc - though I welcome correction if this is wrong).

2. Your video must show your entire loading and start sequence, looking toward the location of the approaching DH2 (he will start right at your 12, same alt). You can edit out most of the startup if you want, but you can't edit the video down so that the start isn't shown. The start of your video must match the engagement described herein, with regard to distance and relative starting location for both craft.

3. In all my trials so far, the DH2 will bank to his right, moving across to your left. Follow him, and close slowly without firing. When you are within range such that you can hit consistently, give a short burst or two. He will begin evasive maneuvers; follow him down, keeping him in sight at all times (as much as possible).

That's essentially it, though ideally you follow him - without actually downing him - letting him evade a little, settle down, then get in another short burst, and repeat.

I do have to reserve the right to modify the test if, for example, I discover I omitted some detail that is crucial to the test, or if needed to gather more detail about anything seen (so, for instance, it might be useful to identify the cause and potential correction).



Last edited by kksnowbear; 05/07/16 09:40 PM. Reason: Decided the entire startup needs to be included in the video.
#4257596 - 05/07/16 10:18 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Stache Online content
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Okay - when will you post your video?

I would like to see a video with stutters before I try to replicate.


Can you provide the details for this...
Originally Posted By: kksnowbear
Obviously, you'll need to create/enlist a German pilot so that you wind up in the same location, time and aerodrome as pictured.


Never mind - Jasta 2 Home field Harlebeke Jan 1918

Last edited by Stache; 05/07/16 11:51 PM. Reason: figured it out

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. A. Einstein

(System Specs:)

I7-6700k OC 4.4GHZ, 16GB DDR4 3200Mhz; Gigabyte Gaming 7 MB, G1 OC'ed GTX980ti; Three-Acer XB271HU WQHD Gsync 144Mhz; Samsung 950-512GB NVMe SSD; WD 2TB-7200rpm; Cooler Master HAF XB EVO, Nepton 240M cooler, V1000 PS; Windows 10 PRO; VKB GunfighterPro Stick; Thrustmaster TPR Pedals; Saitek Throttle; Dual TM MFD panels; TrackIR 5
#4257601 - 05/07/16 10:42 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Andy73 Offline
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I am having Issues with this Game since over 2 Years. I have tried all possible Solutions, do this, try that, but that was all rubbish.

I have tried to work with this Game, you can believe me. I have put nearly 1000 Euros into a new Computer, I have bought every Add-On for WOFF, because WOFF is the BEST WW1 Sim out there, I have even bought a new Operating System at last (Win10) for 124 Euros, and THE ONE AND ONLY REASON was to get this Game free of Stutters.

But... nothing helped. WOFF 3 runs more worse than WOFF 2 on my System.

What else could I say? I have tried dozens (if not One Hundred) of Combinations between the Game and my Video-Card- Drivers, I have bought the full Version of Process Lasso (which is indeed a very good Program, also for other Games), but...nothing helped.


I am working very hard 4 Days a Week (Construction), every Day up to 11 Hours, so my time is limited to the Weekend. And EVERY WEEKEND since the last 2 Years I was trying to tweak my System for this Game. Of Course, I made something else from time to time (I am a very big Collector of Music). Sometimes I was so frustrated from WOFF, that my thoughts were going into strange Ways (you know what I mean, the Garbage Can was already open).


My English is not good enough to describe what I am really thinking of this Game, the poorly Optimisation of this outdated Engine (OFF Phase 3 was running much way better!!!!) and especially about some Users, who think they are some "WOFF-Gods" (sorry for this Word, I do not know how to describe this).

I totally agree with kksnowbear. Players like me, who have massive Problems with this Game, are attacked, more or less, as "Computer-Idiots" and "People who have no Idea how to tweak a Game".

Let me tell you a small Example:

At Christmas last Year I bought some new Hardware:
ASUS Z170-K Motherboard
Intel i-7 6700k at 4 GHZ
8 GB DDR4 RAM

Together with my ZOTAC GTX 970 I think this is a pretty good average System. Everything is working fine, no Problems so far o my System. That's a Fact.

With this Hardware I made the following Tweaks:

Rise of Flight : 2 Days = runs smooth as Hell
OFF Phase 3: 3 Days = runs smooth as Hell
IL2 Sturmovik 1946: 1 Week = runs smooth as Hell
IL2 BoS: 2 Days = runs smooth as Hell

and...

WOFF: Since Christmas no Difference. And before Christmas nearly 2 Years the same #%&*$# on my old System.

So what are some Guys are trying to tell me? That this is a perfectly optimised Game? Are you kidding me?

My next and VERY LAST Step will be a G-Sync Monitor for 500-600 Euros, and if this doesn't help either, the Game will be thrown into my Garbage Can, and I will leave this Place for good.

This Game is badly optimised. And nobody can tell me the Opposite. That is my Point!

OFF Phase 3 was much, much better because Players could optimize their Graphics with the CFS3.Config.Exe.

And that is the Culprit from WOFF: This File is missing.

Again, that's my Point. Hate me, or not.

#4257606 - 05/07/16 10:55 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Andy73, you're right 100 %
I feel the same.
Those players who said they have no stutters, should prove here.

Last edited by Bronnx; 05/07/16 11:03 PM.

Intel I7 4790K / 16 GB DDR3 / Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500 GB / Gigabyte GA Z97X-UD5H / GTX 1080 / 4K Samsung UE55KS7500 / TrackIR 5 / X55 Saitek
#4257607 - 05/07/16 10:56 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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I don't think anybody hates you Andy. Nor is anyone attacking you or calling you a "computer idiot." All I see are people saying that the sim can run smoothly and they are willing to help with ideas. I agree that your system should be able to run WOFF just fine. Something clearly isn't happy if you are getting stutters.

I do have a g-sync monitor and it is true that V-sync, the software solution to try to stop "screen tearing" adds a load to the GPU and is known to cause micro stutters. Its possible that is the culprit but I would hesitate to have to spend that kind of cash to find out - although I must say G-Sync monitors are well worth the cost simply for any gamer.

I understand that you have tried a crap ton of stuff, so I apologize if my suggestions have already been tried, but have you tried turning off V-sync (I know you will probably get screen tears) just to see if that helps reduce the stuttering problem?

Have you tried turning off all of your anti-virus software before running WOFF? Avast gave me issues a year or so back and when I turned it off, things got better quickly.

Is any of your hardware overclocked? Video card or CPU? Sometimes that causes issues. Pure stab in the dark Andy, but just trying to help.

It's entirely possible that because the CFS3Config.exe is missing, it's causing your problems, however that file is missing from every WOFF installation and so it would seem plausible that a much larger segment of the users would be reporting the same issue.

You mentioned using Process Lasso so it seems to me you are probably an above average computer user. I'm happy to work with anyone that is willing to go through the process of elimination.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 5.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
(warning)
Intel i7 6700K OC 4.6 Ghz
Corsair Hydro H60 Liquid Cooler
16 GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR4 RAM
2 x EVO 850 1TB SSD Drives (OS & Games)
1 Intel 240GB SSD drive (Scratch drive for videos)
MSI Z170 GAMER M7 Motherboard
EVGA GTX 1080 Founders Edition
Corsair CX850M Power Supply
Acer XB280HK 27" G-SYNC Monitor
Corsair RGB STRAFE MX Silent Keyboard
Windows 10 Home 64 bit

#4257611 - 05/07/16 11:03 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Stache Online content
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Please if you are not participating in the testing process, find another thread.

Thank you.


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. A. Einstein

(System Specs:)

I7-6700k OC 4.4GHZ, 16GB DDR4 3200Mhz; Gigabyte Gaming 7 MB, G1 OC'ed GTX980ti; Three-Acer XB271HU WQHD Gsync 144Mhz; Samsung 950-512GB NVMe SSD; WD 2TB-7200rpm; Cooler Master HAF XB EVO, Nepton 240M cooler, V1000 PS; Windows 10 PRO; VKB GunfighterPro Stick; Thrustmaster TPR Pedals; Saitek Throttle; Dual TM MFD panels; TrackIR 5
#4257617 - 05/07/16 11:23 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Andy73 Offline
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Hellshade, see my Picture from old OFF Phase 3:


You know what I mean? This was the Key to optimize OFF on our Systems. But the Devs took that away. Why??

They simply said: "We optimize this Game for you!" But please Guys, not with this old Engine! Let the Players optimize it for themselves!!! Gamers know how to tweak such a Config.Exe!!! Every System is different. So what is running good on 5 Systems, could run very bad on the 6th or 7th System.

Everything could be so simple!





Last edited by Andy73; 05/07/16 11:24 PM.
#4257618 - 05/07/16 11:29 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Stache Online content
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Andy, PLEASE find another thread.


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. A. Einstein

(System Specs:)

I7-6700k OC 4.4GHZ, 16GB DDR4 3200Mhz; Gigabyte Gaming 7 MB, G1 OC'ed GTX980ti; Three-Acer XB271HU WQHD Gsync 144Mhz; Samsung 950-512GB NVMe SSD; WD 2TB-7200rpm; Cooler Master HAF XB EVO, Nepton 240M cooler, V1000 PS; Windows 10 PRO; VKB GunfighterPro Stick; Thrustmaster TPR Pedals; Saitek Throttle; Dual TM MFD panels; TrackIR 5
#4257620 - 05/07/16 11:34 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: Bronnx]  
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Originally Posted By: Bronnx
Andy73, you're right 100 %
I feel the same.
Those players who said they have no stutters, should prove here.


Wow...really? You really said that? Forget it then. Go play what you want or like then.
Yes, yes Stache I am leaving.

#4257624 - 05/07/16 11:45 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Andy73 Offline
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Okay, I'm going to leave this Place, too. It's always the Same: Players with Problems are not welcome in your wonderful WOFF-World.
You do not understand me.

Very Sad.

Last edited by Andy73; 05/08/16 12:05 AM.
#4257625 - 05/07/16 11:47 PM Re: A challenge? [Re: Stache]  
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kksnowbear Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stache
Okay - when will you post your video?

I would like to see a video with stutters before I try to replicate.


Can you provide the details for this...
Originally Posted By: kksnowbear
Obviously, you'll need to create/enlist a German pilot so that you wind up in the same location, time and aerodrome as pictured.


I'll do my best to do that, although I've really never done a video. So bear with me. TBH, I am happy to accommodate your request, but the idea is to see a machine that *does not* stutter, not one that does smile

Anyway, it's no problem, but please be patient. I just got back in (again) and now must have dinner and 'family time', so it will be later or tomorrow before I can do as you asked. (I promise I'll have no trouble showing you the stuttering, for what it's worth).

As for the others, please, everyone - I don't want the thread locked again, please keep it civil?

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