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#4252715 - 04/25/16 07:53 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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VEAO_Ells Offline
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Ok Winfield, or would you rather been known as mudslinger seeing as you've branded me "tree hugger"?....let's kick this off.

Firstly, what have I done to offend you for you to personally insult me and my company?
Yes we're all open to opinions around here but seriously, you seem to have a personal vendetta against me and I'd like to know where that came from. Did I sleep with your girlfriend, wife, mother, father, dog, cat or goldfish for you to have this much hate against me??

Anyone can post things out of context and wow you are seriously good at doing that; only posting quotes from me to strengthen your case to the unsuspecting community.
Sometimes three times in a row the same quote just in case anyone missed you trying to get your point across. Tell me, do you feel this inadequate all of the time with other personal issues?

Lets also set something straight whilst we're here. I have no authority to ban anyone on the ED forums or can influence anyone getting banned and I certainly do not hide behind ED's moderators.

Have I not been truthful answering people's questions and concerns on the forums?
Have I not invited people to contact me personally to discuss any issues they have with the module?
Have I not offered refunds to people that post concerns?

Yes I certainly have and out of those public refund requests do you know how many I've actually refunded when they contacted me, none, because when I talk to them they voice their concerns, I listen and we discuss what they want and what some of the issues are and all of them have asked to be helpful and become a tester so we can make better products, rather than flinging mud around, like you.

If you hate the module so much why haven't you un-installed it, contacted me and asked for a refund.
I'll tell you why, it's because you want some limelight with this community for being the all seeing eye, the voice of reason, the public opinion of our "low quality" module as you call it, flinging mud around.
Actually I quite like the name mudflinger for you, it suits you very well.

It seems to me you're hiding behind this community because you don't have the balls to contact me to discuss things in person. So, man the #%&*$# up and let's have at it.

Oh I see it was your video about the damage model, why am I not surprised. Nice subjective view there, thanks.
Oh wait, let's drive an airplane into a truck and a few other airplanes and see if I can set it on fire.
Did you have Tonka toys when you were a kid and do the same thing?

Everyone keeps saying realism realism realism so is it realistic that the slightest touch of an airplane in DCS makes it catch on fire or it's wing fall off? No doubt your opinion will be yes because whatever I say you'll argue against, well in the real world it just doesn't happen that way.

After reading 8 pages of your "subjective" drivel lets get down to the brass tacks and let me ask you some questions so we can start to discuss things here.

Are you a pilot, have you actually flown an aircraft in real life?
Are you a programmer?
Have you ever in the past, or are currently, building a module for DCS?
Are you a project manager and have any qualifications in such?
Do you actually know what military work we are doing?

I'm dying to know the answers because you spout off to this community that you know so much about all of these things and that I have no idea about them.
So, indulge me and answer truthfully.

Then, we can discuss the issues of Hawk one by one in a mudslinger vs tree hugger death match style.

By the way, how's your goldfish, I feel so bad.....

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4252721 - 04/25/16 08:19 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Winfield Offline
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Right gents,

After requesting in a support ticket to have my ban extended to 2 years in the hope that by the time the ban is lifted there may be a slight change and 1 or 2 bug fixes with the hawk.

You have been banned for the following reason:
Ban increased to 2 years at users request. Ticket # 52133

Date the ban will be lifted: 04-25-2018, 10:00 AM


In Sobek's defence hence the posts above (don't thank me just yet matey) I put in a 'support ticket' putting forward a request for 'Sobek' to become a community manager. I wrote in the qualities I see from his posts here and yet I have not received a response on that. Stay tuned folks, once the answer comes through, it will be shared here for those vying to be community managers or moderators.

However straight down to business. Today I have reviewed the avionics as well as the damage model combined with a couple of video's. These low budget, 1 take video's are unedited and 'subject to change (description only) You can bluntly see that the model is far from ready to be called a Beta. I will be showing you the wing loading of the EFM that I have tested. Watch the video and then read the comments I have found whilst testing the systems and avionics of this module. Have a go at "i plant trees' comment on my 1st video in my OP, this video contradicts his version of how the EFM damage model reacts under certain conditions. I am quite sure as my role of the 'unofficial tester' I have basically tested every type of the damage model in just the 1st video all bar running it nose first into the ground at 800MPH.

The avionics and wing loading seriously needs an overhaul, this video will be followed up with some quotes and posts by none over than our dear 'cactus tree climber' and some angry and annoyed hawk customers such as myself. I have a long way to go on the review of this aircraft, so bare with me. Development of this aircraft has been 5+ years in the making, I think I can review 5+ years of work into about 4+ weeks of 'unofficial testing' and reporting



EDIT: to be continued (as I have just seen VEAO have made a statement whilst searching for a post in this thread.....Finally the developer has spoken, I'll read the response then sit back as I make comment on it supporting my claims with posts, video and screenshot evidence for those interested in this dodgy dev. You can draw your own conclusions and make your own opinion on the module for those who have yet to purchase it .....Brace yourself gents, grab a slab, turn the aircon on if your at home, charge the phone if your about to head out because this is surely the moment we have all been waiting for.

#4252722 - 04/25/16 08:35 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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"Cactus tree climber".... I'm certainly not going to be hugging any cactus trees, that's for sure!!

Read the questions I asked and answer them. You don't need to back it up with screenshots, posts and quotes or are you too afraid to show your true self knowledge and experience?

I really do hope your goldfish is ok....

#4252724 - 04/25/16 09:04 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Wow, 40 minutes have passed and mudslinger here can't even answer 5 simple questions, well 6 with the personal attack thing.

Just about shows me what knowledge you actually have if you can't answer those simple questions.

So, why should I bother talking to you in the first place?

#4252726 - 04/25/16 09:20 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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@Ells
Very passive aggressive and down right rude post considering you represent VEAO and in such the product you are trying to sell.

I get it that Winfield isn't innocent and all his posts are passive aggressive or sarcastically written but he (and many others) are and have been voicing there concern and issue regarding the HAWK from some time now and all we the customers hear are "excuses" and passive aggressive newsletters and posts.

I'm not going to go to much into the issues with the HAWK because it's not going anywhere and I am just disappointed with the product and the company.

I don't get why Winfield or any other person would have to contact you personally to talk about the issues he and many others are having with the HAWK, that is what the forums are for and that way other people can see the progress of the discussion and possible fixes. I understand contacting people directly through email or PM if you want to call them out for being an #%&*$# but you as a representative of VEAO should handle this better when writing into a public forum.

I'm a programmer, a "small" project manager and work a lot with all sorts of customers from private customer all the way to product manufacturers and can understand that it's hard sometimes to hear criticisms and people call you and you and your product #%&*$#. Sometimes you can call them out for being dicks but you need to stay polite because at the end of the day they are the customer buying and promoting your product and thus keeping the company and product alive.

Originally Posted By: Winfield

After requesting in a support ticket to have my ban extended to 2 years in the hope that by the time the ban is lifted there may be a slight change and 1 or 2 bug fixes with the hawk.

You have been banned for the following reason:
Ban increased to 2 years at users request. Ticket # 52133

Date the ban will be lifted: 04-25-2018, 10:00 AM



Hahaha, this is pure comedy!

#4252729 - 04/25/16 10:13 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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scrim Offline
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Ells: May I please have a refund? I payed $31.99US for your product when it was released years ago, and I can undoubtedly say that no other DCS module has been a bigger source of disappointment.

#4252730 - 04/25/16 10:13 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: VEAO_Ells]  
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Winfield Offline
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Originally Posted By: VEAO_Ells
Wow, 40 minutes have passed and mudslinger here can't even answer 5 simple questions, well 6 with the personal attack thing.

Just about shows me what knowledge you actually have if you can't answer those simple questions.

So, why should I bother talking to you in the first place?


may I offer you a cold glass of water?? it may help you to cool down, seriously your complaining about 40+ minutes for a response? I've waited 5+ years for a decent EFM, has that happened yet? no and I am still waiting.....

I'll post when I'm finished, mind you I did say grab a slab.....that's 24 375ml 4.9% alcohol beer bottles, 40 minutes is about 3 of those. I'm getting there....

#4252732 - 04/25/16 10:41 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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To answer some other users posts in here, I will first give some background to how modules work in DCS and how they are split and why bugs are showing.

An aircraft module is essentially split into 5 components:
ASM - Advanced System Model
EFM - 3rd party External Flight Model (designation given by ED) or SFM - Standard Flight Model
DM - Damage Model
DFM - Damage Flight Model (what we call it internally)
DRM - Digital Rights Management (Starforce in DCS)

You obviously then have the 3D model, textures, sounds, Etc. but for now let's focus on the coding.

The ASM is tied into the SFM or EFM via DCS. So anything systems wise in the aircraft like switches, dials, functions, controller inputs will affect the flight model. The ASM is continuously talking to DCS which in turn talks to the flight model and vice versa to show your attitude, heading, altitude, speed, engine rpm, etc.

With the Hawk being released on SFM all of those functions were built years ago and pretty much worked without issue (Tango did this coding).
ED then did some updates to the core sim from 1.2.16 to 1.5 and release of 2.0
This fundamentally broke the way our ASM talked to DCS and we worked on getting those fixes patched.
We could not forsee this and had to react to the update in time for the patch.

So, bringing us onto the EFM switch.
Let me start with the DRM and the crash people had when the first 2.0.2 patch came out (which was reverted by ED).
We provided unprotected files to ED and they do the Starforce protection. This was the deal set with ED for Hawk.
The protection they ran on the EFM caused 1fps slowdown, coupled with the CPU issue this meant Hawk was unflayable.
This issue did not show up to us on the test system and therefore it was as much a surprise to us as you.

Then onto the re-patch of 2.0.2 and some people experiencing CTD's.
None of our testers or team have had this crash and probably the reason is that we always delete our saved control profiles before a patch, something standard we do for a control input update, which in this case was the addition of toe brakes with the EFM.
Only some people have experienced the CTD issue and deleting the saved input profiles has fixed it for most.
In consultation with ED we have also made changes in the code and are currently waiting for ED to provide protected files for people to test.
Again, we simply did not know this would happen and was not picked up by us prior to release.

Yes, some things don't work in the EFM Hawk and I am the first to admit that.
There are various reasons for this which I will try to explain.

Weapons selector - ED changed something in the base sim to do with weapon types which broke in 1.5. This has broken the weapons selector and we are currently re-coding it based on ED's suggestion. So far we are still experiencing problems which is why it has not been patched yet.

With the introduction of the EFM we had to re-code the way the ASM talks to DCS and in turn the EFM and vice versa.
This has also broken a few things along the way.
As I said, Tango coded all of the original ASM. He elected not to work on Hawk anymore so we brought in new coders. They have had to learn all of the 8000 lines of Tango's code and re-write a lot of processes to work with EFM.
Some things are higher priority than others, like actually being able to fly the aircraft, start the engines and all of the systems allowing you to fly.

ED also changed the atmospheric system in DCS which has had an effect on multiple systems; like the canopy being able to be opened during flight and oxygen hypoxia.
These were low on the fix list compared to actually having oxygen flowing through the engine so you could fly, a problem which presented itself more with the prop aircraft but did affect Hawk.

These issues have culminated in a few things still being broken and some new things cropping up and some left to fix later as they are not critical to you enjoying flying the aircraft.

We are working through a bug list that our testers, ED testers and the public have highlighted and have already fixed a lot of things ready for the upcoming patch.

Engine sounds were something we introduced with the EFM. This is the first iteration of sound integration within the cockpit and is still being worked on by our sound engineer and coding team.
I uploaded files to ED's server before the patch that fixed engine sounds but they did not make it in time for the release build.
They will be better in the upcoming patch BUT are still being worked on.

Damage model; something I see mudslinger here is very fond of showing rather than actually flying the plane.
Again with the EFM we had to see how the existing DM worked with the DFM. Shoot a wing off and does the aircraft roll violently or slowly. All questions posed to our 6 real life Hawk pilots which of course is theoretical as they haven't actually been shot down or lost a wing.
We set the level of damage within the lua code; 25%, 50% and 100% damage level.
We provide a collision model.
The sim then works out the rest itself.
These values can be tweaked up or down giving damage level earlier or later if a cell of the collision model is hit.
My own opinion in this matter is that other aircraft in DCS, AI or modules damage way to easily. The slightest touch and they burst into flames.
That is not realistic and as many of you keep telling me you want realism.
That being said, yes there are issues like mudslinger has kindly pointed out on his video that the wing should snap when ploughing into the ground after take off.
But, stating that the avionics is off only shows his lack of understanding on how DCS damage models work.

In summary, we decided to release the product in Beta state officially in April last year. Prior to that was a pre-release version so people could experience the aircraft as we developed it.
These versions were very clear on our website and ED's so if you have bought it so far, you should expect to see bugs with each update until it is in final release.
This is the nature of most games these days and this will not change for DCS, get used to it or don't buy a module until it's in release state.

After explaining how some core elements of DCS ACTUALLY work, rather than a non-educated view, please go ahead and ask questions which I will happily answer.

Thanks,
Chris,

#4252736 - 04/25/16 10:53 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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@Battlerabbit - I have blatantly been called names and have been criticised and I'm not allowed to defend myself in my own manner, how I chose, language and sarcasm as well? Hmmm I can see how this is going to go, very one sided I see.
I thought these forums were open from what I've read and this is me typing, not hiding behind some moderator who controls what I type. You wanted it straight, you got it.
If customers have genuine gripes rather than a load of hype fuelled by shiz being thrown about in a rude manner feel free to talk about it.
I'm here now and will answers questions.

@Scrim -thanks for that constructive criticism which I've taken on board. Please email support and we will process a refund and disable your product key.

@mudslinger - still no answers to 6 simple questions. Yep just as I thought. You go and enjoy those beers buddy and be careful not to spill any water on your keyboard whilst you're trying to come up with an answer.

#4252769 - 04/25/16 12:59 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Winfield Offline
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The short version.

Are you a pilot, have you actually flown an aircraft in real life? Yes, not fixed wing
Are you a programmer? No degree in this, however I have made a few scripts in the past.
Have you ever in the past, or are currently, building a module for DCS? No
Are you a project manager and have any qualifications in such? Yes, this I have a great wealth of knowledge and experience in. I will elaborate further on this once the long drawn out post is complete. I will even give you pointers in where you are failing at leading your team.....You may actually learn a thing or two.
Do you actually know what military work we are doing? No, only what you and I have spoken about in PM's when I attempted to get a straight answer from you regarding the EFM early last year. Due to the ban currently in place for the next few hawk patches I am not able to refer to them. Hence you should still have these because I mentioned you delaying the public release of the EFM for as long as possible whilst you chased the military training contracts. Your response was as expected, subtle to say the least.

As for the mudslinger title, I like it. Happy to wear it as if you call being blunt and honest with no watered down moderator intervention mudslinging, I'll take that as a compliment.

There is a post on here at SimHQ, which you can look for

"there are 2 types of people over at ED, those with nothing worth saying and those who have been banned. I see your still there posting up whilst i'm banned

I'm a customer\mudslinger and therefore I do care for the inner workings of what goes on behind the scenes. When a developer comes out who is as highly egotistic as yourself and openly rant just how good you are and how good your module will be and then years later someone like myself takes it on board and compares back then to what we have now. Don't take offence to it, look at why someone has done a comparison and then look at why the problems exist in the 1st place. When I lead my team, I don't joke especially not in public, at the bar or anywhere. I am the representative and I represent that team. I am strict stern and precise with everything that I set out for my team. I don't joke about 'nando's, I don't make reference to what I do in my social life to my team, I am their boss and that is how I am to be treated. I am not their social friend, I lay down the ground rules and those rules are followed, failed deadlines are not rewarded. This is how I "product manage" When dealing with customers, be honest and be blunt. Don't throw a rainbow over the truth of the matter. When I am dealing with customer's I am blunt honest and forthright. My business is mining, not flight sims, you stopped being an 'enthusiast' the moment you announced that 'your' company was registered as VEAO and you were releasing the hawk.

The post you made here http://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4252732/Re:_DCS:_VEAO_Hawk_EFM_&am#Post4252732

is probably the most honest and forthright post you have written, that is how a product manager should treat their customer, a blunt honest incite as to why the product is currently not as expected.

My reference to 'tree hugger' etc is in reference to your 1st post on these very forums the last time someone 'slated' you and your company as you have put it.

Finally,

there is it Chris.

#4252773 - 04/25/16 01:10 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: VEAO_Ells]  
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zaelu Offline
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Originally Posted By: VEAO_Ells
@Battlerabbit - I have blatantly been called names and have been criticised and I'm not allowed to defend myself in my own manner, how I chose, language and sarcasm as well?


Short answer: No. Long answer: Yes, but you will lose customers.

It's simply that simple. Winfield as a simple forumist can do whatever this forum allows but you as a representative of your business you only hurt yourself by such responses. And that is a trait of good leadership you failed to show.

You asked for credentials with your 6 little fallacious questions but you should ask those questions to you. If you are so manager and so programmer how come you have a project that instead of 12 months development is 5 years old and still unfinished? Isn't it a trait of good managers to have a good feel of timeframes and timeschedules?

Your team/project failed every time ED made some changes and you always excused yourself blaming ED or the stars but didn't failed to pat yourself on the back because you helped RAZBAM with some minor stuff. Is this the sign of a great man? To always find excuses outside and not let a good deed slide without a pathetic selfie? I don't think so.

I would had fired you in ED's place not only for your failure but also for breaking that rule 1.3 Winfield got banned. You have an NDA with ED and you should be careful when dodging the blame by putting it on the back of the one that feeds your business after all.

Originally Posted By: Battlerabbit

Originally Posted By: Winfield

After requesting in a support ticket to have my ban extended to 2 years in the hope that by the time the ban is lifted there may be a slight change and 1 or 2 bug fixes with the hawk.

You have been banned for the following reason:
Ban increased to 2 years at users request. Ticket # 52133

Date the ban will be lifted: 04-25-2018, 10:00 AM


Hahaha, this is pure comedy!



It's like Angry Joe is banned on all official game forums... biggrin

#4252783 - 04/25/16 01:39 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: VEAO_Ells]  
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Originally Posted By: VEAO_Ells
@Battlerabbit - I have blatantly been called names and have been criticised and I'm not allowed to defend myself in my own manner, how I chose, language and sarcasm as well? Hmmm I can see how this is going to go, very one sided I see.


Sure you can defend yourself but get it off your chest with one or two posts and don't constantly ride around on it.
As clich as it sounds in a situation like this you need the be the bigger person and just shrug it of as stupid customers. I'm not defending either side here but how VEAO has handled the situation in the past and present has not helped its situation / chemistry with the community.

You would be better of admitting that you #%&*$# up or made bad decisions in the past then making excuses, the community won't lynch you for it and your standing might improve because of your honesty.

#4252826 - 04/25/16 03:57 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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I am not here to defend anyone - but this thread has outlived its purpose.

Winfield has very valid points.

Ells has every reason not to be enjoying this thread, he also made some valid points.

will they ever come to an agreement ?

maybe in another thread , maybe some other time, maybe never.

meanwhile :

Can this thread be closed ?

#4252827 - 04/25/16 04:04 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Winfield isn't done with his analysis, so no.

#4252876 - 04/25/16 07:21 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted By: Sobek
At least i'll always have the time that CyBerkut moderated here <3 It cannot be overstated what a surpreme job he did.


Thanks for the kind words. However, I'm still involved here, so if there are any moderation shortcomings, they do not fall upon Force10 alone.

I let a lot of references to "up the tree at..." and variations of that pass by, as until recently I did not really know who that referred to (I'm not particularly knowledgeable on who all the key people are at the various developers). When it became apparent to me it referred to Ells, as far as I knew Ells was not a member here. Today, Ells posted here for the first time since late September 2015... so now, I know.

So... let's ditch the name calling and slights directed at other members here. No more "up the tree" and similar variations, no more "mudslinger", etc. Address the subject, not the author's characteristics.

That being said, products and their development, marketing and schedules are fair game for discussion.

#4252923 - 04/25/16 09:22 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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- Ice Offline
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popcorn

Reading this thread and... wow. I thought I was displeased with DCS as a whole and just stepped away. Someone decided to stay in and go at it with a fine-toothed comb. Bravo.


- Ice
#4252970 - 04/26/16 12:04 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: - Ice]  
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Remon Offline
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
popcorn

Reading this thread and... wow. I thought I was displeased with DCS as a whole and just stepped away. Someone decided to stay in and go at it with a fine-toothed comb. Bravo.


Well, Winfield (old account XIII, I don't know what happened and that account got deleted) wasn't really a DCS fan from the beginning. He just decided to find the easiest targets to hit instead of mindlessly bashing the game.

Last edited by Remon; 04/26/16 12:05 AM.
#4252981 - 04/26/16 12:44 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Remon]  
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Winfield Offline
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Originally Posted By: Remon
Originally Posted By: - Ice
popcorn

Reading this thread and... wow. I thought I was displeased with DCS as a whole and just stepped away. Someone decided to stay in and go at it with a fine-toothed comb. Bravo.


Well, Winfield (old account XIII, I don't know what happened and that account got deleted) wasn't really a DCS fan from the beginning. He just decided to find the easiest targets to hit instead of mindlessly bashing the game.


ah dear Remon, back for another dose are we?

#4252994 - 04/26/16 01:15 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Remon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Winfield
Originally Posted By: Remon
Originally Posted By: - Ice
popcorn

Reading this thread and... wow. I thought I was displeased with DCS as a whole and just stepped away. Someone decided to stay in and go at it with a fine-toothed comb. Bravo.


Well, Winfield (old account XIII, I don't know what happened and that account got deleted) wasn't really a DCS fan from the beginning. He just decided to find the easiest targets to hit instead of mindlessly bashing the game.


ah dear Remon, back for another dose are we?


Of what? Irrelevant remarks about my place of origin? You've done it twice now, as XIII and with this account. It's your go to move.

Last edited by Remon; 04/26/16 01:21 AM.
#4253001 - 04/26/16 01:57 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 871
Winfield Offline
model citizen
Winfield  Offline
model citizen
Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 871
QLD
oh please your ps2 mic broken is it? don't you have a game of COD to play like the rest of the hurt and abused children in this world? that's the mentality of your situation and your posts here. Is ranting on about an account the best you can put forth to this community to convince me or those readers you have any valid point on offer or 'evidence' to support your bogus claim?

The difference here is you are not showing any evidence to support any claims on offer. Calling me out because someone hurt your feelings years ago in these forums has nothing to do with me.....if your still hurt and upset, seek help because I have nothing further to offer you.


check....

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