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#4252114 - 04/23/16 04:34 AM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: Razorback]  
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And the winner of The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread is...

Originally Posted By: Razorback
Back in 2011 I had spiraled out of control and peaked near 600lbs.

Today I weigh 240lbs.

I did it the old fashioned way. Less calories. More exercise.

It can be done. You don't have to resort to magic.


notworthy notworthy notworthy

Just effing...WOW (and I seldom swear in real life)!

cheers

++++++++++

However, it may not be magic but I would think that level of weight loss was *very* hard to accomplish!

Here's how I understand it works (and if I'm mistaken, I invite anyone to correct me)...

There are two times in your life when your body creates fat cells naturally, as an infant and around puberty (est. age 9 - 13). By age 16 you already have all the fat cells you're ever going to have as an adult, after this age if you become overweight you're only enlarging your fat cells, which can enlarge up to 6X normal size.

If you become severely overweight after this time, your fat cells get maxed and start to divide to form new fat cells. You can never get rid of all the extra fat cells, you can only shrink them. Even as each cell dies after ~5 years, it's replaced by a new one, all of them are.

The good news is that you can shrink a fat cell to almost nothing, allowing you to slim down even with all the extra fat cells. The bad news is that a shrunken fat cell keeps signaling the brain to "feed" it (the more the shrinkage, the stronger the signal), causing a stronger than normal appetite. So as I understand it, it's much harder to maintain a huge weight loss then it is for a similarly sized person (with less fat cells) to not gain weight. It's a battle you fight for the rest of your life, and a reason they advise against childhood obesity while the body is still naturally creating new fat cells as they'll have too many as an adult.

++++++++++

I started becoming overweight at around age 16 (taking on my wife's eating habits, except that I'm no ectomorph). I was use to relatively healthy cooking and mom never allowed soda and chips (by US and UK definition) in the house except for a *very* rare treat of fast food. Wife and her family occasionally ate home cooking, but often it was pizza, McDonald's, Krispy Kreme and all things Mrs. Paul's. They also drank several regular Cokes a day and snacked on cans of Pringles. This is how I began eating, not to mention all the government cheese on chips I was eating at her place.

Years later at my highest weight I was just shy of 270 lbs. (122.5 kg), at 5'-9" (175.26 cm) I don't know if my body created any new fat cells or not, I'm hoping I just oversized my existing cells. Even shrinking existing fat cells signals the brain (so I understand), but eventually your body gets use to it.

I'd love to hear from anyone in the know about this. The deal is that I don't want to carry over any weight problems into my 50's, I want to put this entire weight loss thing to rest and only worry about maintenance, which I'm sure I'll have to do for the rest of my life.

++++++++++

Again, congrats Razorback! cheers

Last edited by MarkG; 04/23/16 04:47 AM. Reason: more shrinkage, stronger signal
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#4252307 - 04/23/16 09:45 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: MarkG]  
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Originally Posted By: MarkG

If you become severely overweight after this time, your fat cells get maxed and start to divide to form new fat cells. You can never get rid of all the extra fat cells, you can only shrink them. Even as each cell dies after ~5 years, it's replaced by a new one, all of them are.

The good news is that you can shrink a fat cell to almost nothing, allowing you to slim down even with all the extra fat cells. The bad news is that a shrunken fat cell keeps signaling the brain to "feed" it (the more the shrinkage, the stronger the signal), causing a stronger than normal appetite. So as I understand it, it's much harder to maintain a huge weight loss then it is for a similarly sized person (with less fat cells) to not gain weight. It's a battle you fight for the rest of your life, and a reason they advise against childhood obesity while the body is still naturally creating new fat cells as they'll have too many as an adult.


And don't I know it. It's been a horrible first four months of 2016 as my body fights my weight loss. Thankfully, I lost it very slowly over half-a-decade so I've conditioned myself to counteract that self-sabotage stuff. But every day is a struggle. Actually, if truth be told, every day over the past five-years has been a struggle. But I put one foot in front of the other and go. I hate taking days off from working out just because routines are everything. Once you break a routine, that becomes your new routine --not doing anything.

Originally Posted By: MarkG

Again, congrats Razorback! cheers


Thanks!

My advice to anyone worried about their weight and staying in shape into their 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond is simple:

Don't stop working out. Don't stop doing things. Don't think you've "achieved a healthy status" or any such thing. You can maybe do that in your 20s. You can't do it much beyond that. Look, I'm 44 and I feel like a kid now... mostly because when I was in my 20s and 30s, I was as out of shape as anyone you will ever know.

I don't get tired during the day. I don't get winded walking or running. I only feel true struggle when running uphill for extended periods of time. I feel great. There is no reason most people can't feel this way well into their retirement age. You just have to work at it... and consider that there is nothing more important than FEELING GOOD every minute of every day, as opposed to feeling good for 2 minutes while downing McDonalds and then feeling terrible for the rest of the day.

#4252596 - 04/24/16 09:59 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: Razorback]  
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Been fighting that same battle for the last several years. Injuries, even though I have been trying to keep the workouts reasonable, keep setting me back but I am determined not to quit.


Wheels


Cheers wave
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#4252602 - 04/24/16 10:21 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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reading Any kind of exercise routine is good. Low impact works fine. Diet: what works for me is low carb, low sugar. Its kind of the Drinking man,s diet without the alcohol. ( No Bread). then 1 time a week, Take a break and have some kind of Junk food. If feeling starved between meals, have a some fruit ( not out of cans or bags) or popcorn It works for me and most of the time I have energy and dont feel hungry.

My Step son is a bodybuilder and for Diet: He does a low carb ( meal a day spread out all day) with meal replacement drinks or smoothies ( add fruit) Whey protein and Muscle milk comes to mind, although there are others .for quick energy, he drinks Coffee just like the rest of us.

Last edited by carrick58; 04/24/16 10:39 PM.
#4252630 - 04/24/16 11:24 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: carrick58]  
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Originally Posted By: carrick58

My Step son is a bodybuilder and for Diet: He does a low carb ( meal a day spread out all day) with meal replacement drinks or smoothies


My #1 through 4 rule:

#1 NEVER
#2 DRINK
#3 YOUR
#4 CALORIES

screwy

#4256910 - 05/06/16 09:22 AM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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107 kg today.Going well but hitting a snag.

I'm now counting my calories so I know what my intake is.Yesterday for instance it was only 1200Kcal which is too little for a 6ft male but I just wasn't hungry.I had to force 300 in late at night to try to make it up.The down-side is that sometimes I'm getting a little light-headed when I get up quickly.I assume that's because I'm not eating enough?

I have a 24hr BP test on Tues as a follow-up to one I had done 6 months ago.That one was ok,maybe a little high hence the follow-up.My blood sugars are spot on.

I walk twice a day (30-40 mins)briskly. For my age/height/weight it's recommended to intake 2100-2700kcals.I was aiming for 1800 whilst dieting.

Obviously I will take these issues up with the nurse but what can I do differently?


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#4256915 - 05/06/16 09:47 AM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Chucky, what is your age, height and job? 2100-2700 seems way too much to me. I'm fit (15% Body Fat) meaning a higher base metabolism rate, exercise three times a week, 182cm with 34yo, but due to my sitting office job I end up with about 1800kcal a day to hold weight. Maybe 1900 if we assume I make mistakes counting (but I don't really...)

Any higher I'll gain. 2700kcal for me is for a construction worker...

#4256920 - 05/06/16 10:03 AM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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56/183/retired.

I got that info from a NHS web-site.It did seem high,I would have thought the lower figure was about right for the average person to maintain weight.


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#4256952 - 05/06/16 11:49 AM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted By: Chucky
56/183/retired.

I got that info from a NHS web-site.It did seem high,I would have thought the lower figure was about right for the average person to maintain weight.


While you should adapt values from calculators to your own body composition (high fat percentages should reduce the impact of high weight on the BMR, as fat is not metabolically active to the same degree as muscle), and metabolism. ... a BMR calculation for these values shows that your basal rate would currently be around 1939 kCal per day. Mifflin St Joer (By comparison my own is given as 1351 (43, 165cm, 53kg).

Your maintenance intake would then be increased from your BMR by some proportion - sedentary from around 40%, moderately active around 70%, vigorously active 100% and extremely active ~140%

The 2700kCal thus seems plausible if you have a 'normal' body composition, but may be somewhat excessive if you carry most of the excess weight as fatty tissue. It would be my dietary requirement if I were a manual labourer (agriculture) or similarly active, but for sedentary living I'd need less than 1900 kCal.

As a rough idea**, the difference in calorific usage between the WHO definitions of sedentary and moderately active is equivalent to around 7.5km, or a little under 5 miles of walking. Between Sedentary and vigorously active is around 15.3km or just under 10 miles of walking, and between Sedentary and Extremely active is around 25km or 16 miles of walking.
Running uses a little more, but not by as much as you might expect (though this has added value from occupying less time too). (5.5km, 11km, 18km)

**My calculations based on a combination of papers covering walking over a range of statures and for sloped and flat terrain (slopes make minimal difference over a loop, maybe 10% over a very hilly round trip, but can be significant for a single direction trip). Walking minimum ~ 1kCal per km per kg. Running 3.5/2.5 the walking rate independent of speed.

#4256967 - 05/06/16 12:47 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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^That's the detailed of it wink

As Lieste said much more specific the problem with the calculators is they ask for weight, but they don't ask if that weight is muscle (which consumes energy even at rest) or fat (which doesn't consume energy).

I've experienced with various amounts of daily kcal when I wanted to drop from 85 to sub 80kg, and anything above 2000 average didn't really work. I got results with 1600 or less daily average (which sucks to manage) and now at a daily average of 1800 I mostly keep my weight, but maybe with a very subtle tendency to lose (which evens out in the occasional mad weekend family visit or such).

It's possible that I suffer a bit from the effect that the body can adapt to reduced intake, so a more "normal" intake for me might be 2000kcal.

For you, in your situation, the maximum I would work with to actually lose weight is 1800. But if you can manage a week on 1600 daily it won't hurt either. Based on my experience I would alternate weekly between 1800 and 1600 (or even try to lowball 1400) to keep the body from going into energy saving mode. Further what I did was to alternate daily between "High days and low days", i.e. 1600 one day and 1200 the next. That way every second day you can fit some junk in and the craving becomes less of a problem.

#4257007 - 05/06/16 01:55 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Interesting stuff you guys are posting. I need to be more diligent with calorie counting, what I learned about nuts earlier in this thread was a real eye opener to me.

Chucky, I've had dizzy spells after longer runs (usually about 20 min. after jogging a mile or so), would check my BP and it would be too low. The solution was to make an appointment with my GP and get my dosage lowered. I'm waiting for that to happen again in the near future, although you said your pressure was a little high so I guess this wouldn't be it.

I've also been light-headed when getting up too quickly, but also when I lie down flat (it comes and goes). I workout a couple of times a week and when I first lie on the bench, I give it a few seconds before picking up on the bar, just to be sure. There have been times that just laying down gets the room spinning, but it only lasts for a couple of seconds.

I believe most dizzy spells from getting up or lying down are caused by inner ear and not blood pressure problems.

One of the potential side effects of BP medication in older men is ED, so if you're on it, it's best to try to get off of it if you can. wink I'm not so worried about my junk not working properly (again), it's my ears that concern me now. Too many years of loud music and especially wearing headphones constantly, my tinnitus is getting worse. I've had ear problems my whole life (post-tube eardrum scarring and draining) but all things considered, I normally do well enough on hearing tests. It's been a while since I've been tested so I'm way overdue (and a little concerned that it might get worse).

Music is a large part of my motivation to work hard on being fit, I'm being much more careful with volume and duration now, giving my ears a frequent break. My father now wears hearing aids (well, he's *suppose* to wear them) but not from loud music, from construction noises I assume. I'm hoping that by the time I'm in my 70's they'll be able to zap a laser in there (like they do with eyeballs) and fix any problems. smile

Last edited by MarkG; 05/06/16 02:03 PM.
#4257049 - 05/06/16 03:24 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Be careful when using tables or applications that give an estimated calorie usage based on many of the methods commonly used. These tend to be "gross" effort - that is the BMR, the increment from active metabolism (the sedentary rate - digestion etc), and the actual 'work' portion.

However the first two are already a 'given' for the entire period of exercise and the difference or net work is only the smaller additional amount. This effect is greatest for long duration low intensity efforts, but applies to all activities to some degree. Relying only on your device or an estimate from a website etc is unlikely to be accurate and to overestimate the benefit of many types of common activity. (which is ok if you are eating an exercising sensibly already - defining the wrong values to describe this is not "important"... but if you are using the numbers to guide lifestyle choices you may have disappointing results from 'good' numbers).

If I walk 13km in two hours (my normal pace), then I would expect to use ~690kCal for the exercise plus the regular ~160kCal from my 'sedentary' metabolic requirements.
If I walk with friends or my daughter at a 4hour pace, then I would still expect to use roughly 700kCal for the walking (it is slightly off my most efficient pace), but now I would have used ~320kCal from my normal usage over the 'effort duration' - most calculators and my HRM give the slower walk this noticeable increase in usage over the longer duration - and the effect increases as the pace goes down. (The breakdown of metabolism over the day may not be as simple as this - but be wary of double counting your idle metabolism while monitoring your activity, especially if looking for the small margins advised by health professionals of 500-1000 kCal per day of deficit - overestimating the value of exercise can easily 'eat up' most of this margin).

#4259218 - 05/12/16 09:39 AM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Hmm, this is interesting... and I'm not posting this as a veiled attempt at bragging, but because it really confuses me...

When I came back from a month in Malta last year (July) I dropped a notch on my belt (in fact I had to have additional holes made). I then did most of my diet and kcal control up to Christmas last year, and from then started being constant but not concerned about losing more.

Today I realize I could drop another notch. But my weight hasn't really gone down significantly, and neither do I see a clearly visible amount of additional muscle.

#4259232 - 05/12/16 11:03 AM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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102.3 kg today.I've not been this weight for many years and I'm feeling good about it.115 was my approx starting weight.

I'm waiting for the results from a 24hr BP test and it will be interesting to see how the results compare to the last one I had.Hopefully an improvement.

The nurse suggested 1400kcal a day,that would see a 0.4-0.9 kg loss per week.

Still walking/cycling twice a day and doing some mild exercises at home.

My goal is 85-90kg.


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#4259307 - 05/12/16 02:01 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: Chucky]  
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Hello, I've been overweight my entire life and yoyo dieted through most of it. I just turned 52 and have gained and lost more weight over the years on more "diet" plans than anyone else I know. I'm a typeII diabetic with a all time high glucose of 600!! I have diabetic neuropathy, had a 3rd nerve palsy of the right eye which caused a disabling double vision that doctors thought might be permanent. I was on Levamir (insulin), Glipizide and Metformin for diabetes. I was taking Metoprolol and Enalapril for high blood pressure and they wanted me on statens for high cholesterol which I refused to take. I just wanted to give you guys a little background and to let you know I've been through the diet, lifestyle change ringer many times over. Now on to what I really wanted to say...

The governments food pyramid is a lie and is killing people by the thousands every year. It and the way we eat are the reason there is an obesity and diabetes epidemic in our country and around the world. Fats and oils in our diet are the devil, period! Lipids (fats) at the cellular level are clogging our cells and making us resistant to insulin. This insulin resistance is the start of a horrible cycle of destruction called diabetes. Processed foods, fats and oils are the reason we are the fattest country in the world. I spent months of research discovering what's been kept from me my whole life....the truth!!

The truth is that naturally we are NOT meat eaters. Before the stone age man didn't eat meat because without tools (spears, axes, bows) man had zero chance of catching any game to eat. Humans are pound for pound the weakest beings on the planet. We have crappy vision, terrible sense of smell, we run very slow, no claws, no dagger like canines for killing and ripping flesh. Our digestive tracts digest fruits and carbs fast and efficiently. Meat not so much. Meat is the hardest thing for us to digest, delivers the fat to our bodies that become the lipids that screw up our cells . Meat is responsible for millions of deaths every year around the world and yet for most of us it's our main staple.

I stopped eating animal products and have almost completely stopped using oils of any kind (including olive oil) on March 15. My glucose immediately crashed and I'm now completely off of insulin, my kidney function returned to normal, my blood pressure dropped 30 points and I'm almost completely off of the BP meds. My A1C went from 11 (yes, 11!!) in Feb. to 6.3 on April 28th! The palsy and double vision went away and my vision returned to it's normal 20-15! My doctor is in a state of shock and can't believe the turn around in my labs and health and grilled me for 45 minutes about what I was doing and how I was doing it. I've lost 60 ibs in two months without any working out or calorie restrictions. A calorie restricted diet is a recipe for failure. I eat a LOT of fruits and complex carbs and I'm never hungry.

I was told my whole life that potatoes , rice and other carbs and the natural sugars from fruit would make you fat and give you diabetes. So after reading books from Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, Dr. Neal Barnard, Dr. Gabriel Cousens and many other books, studies and research papers I realized we've been lied to and misled and I decided to make major lifestyle changes and experimented with food and what it did to my body. I found that I could eat 10 bananas, two oranges, two apples, a huge salad and 3 medium potatoes and a huge sweet potato in one day and wake up the next morning with a fasting glucose of 85! It was hard to eat all of that as I was extremely full. I now eat this way everyday and the weight continues to fall off, the cholesterol continues to go lower and my labs continue their march to normalcy. I know it's hard to hear that our whole lives we've been lied to and misled either out of ignorance or greed. It's hard to hear that our mothers, brothers, sisters, fathers, wives, husbands sons and daughters died when they didn't have to. It's hard to know I've wasted decades of my life being obese when I didn't have to. Open your eyes people, please! If you're like me and desperate for a change and want to change your life without surgery, meds, fad BS diets then search for those names I mentioned and research these things for yourself and shed the yoke of BS that's been laid on us our whole lives. If you made it all of the wy to the end thank you for taking the time to read this novel ;-). If anyone wants more info or just to talk PM or email me and I'll help you anyway I can.

#4259311 - 05/12/16 02:14 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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I'd not go as far as to agree that oil and fats are bad for you, but we do tend to consume processed foods laced with excessive fats, sugars and salt to make them more-ish, cheap and really convenient. Even if we eat mostly healthy foods,. these appetisers do encourage increased appetite for these types of foods on top of (or instead of) the better choices.

It isn't just a direct equivalence of calories between two foods either, but the ease with which the body processes them - increased processing reduces the needed digestion reducing the expenditure of energy to capture the food energy - and leaving more which can be converted from glucose into stored lipids.


Alcohol is also a bad choice if concerned with energy intake - there can be a lot of sugars and alcohol itself is high energy density and low in nutritional value.

#4259317 - 05/12/16 02:37 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: Lieste]  
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Originally Posted By: Lieste
I'd not go as far as to agree that oil and fats are bad for you, but we do tend to consume processed foods laced with excessive fats, sugars and salt to make them more-ish, cheap and really convenient. Even if we eat mostly healthy foods,. these appetisers do encourage increased appetite for these types of foods on top of (or instead of) the better choices.

It isn't just a direct equivalence of calories between two foods either, but the ease with which the body processes them - increased processing reduces the needed digestion reducing the expenditure of energy to capture the food energy - and leaving more which can be converted from glucose into stored lipids.


Alcohol is also a bad choice if concerned with energy intake - there can be a lot of sugars and alcohol itself is high energy density and low in nutritional value.


Without a doubt there are different sources of fats, and fat from nuts and legumes are certainly much better for you than fats from meat and dairy and oils. No oil, including olive oil are naturally occurring in nature, they are a processed fat. Read Dr. Esselstyn's (heart surgeon and Chief of Staff at the Cleveland Clinic) book or watch his videos online and it may open your eyes to the effect of fats and oil on our hearts and vascular systems. He has done huge studies for many years and proven what he's preaching. Also read Dr. Neal Barnard's book on the effects of fats on our cells or watch his TedX talk on youtube, it too was for me a eye opener as well. These doctors may have saved my life as I was dying and without my lifestyle and diet change I might not be here. I know it sounds overly dramatic, but it really is true.

#4259365 - 05/12/16 04:22 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Lots of good advice on this thread. I don't think I could cut out animal fats completely though, I eat very little red meat anyway because I much prefer eating seafood (does this count as meat?) and chicken. I do eat plenty of non-processed cheese and half-&-half in my coffee, so I'm taking in some bad saturated fats.

But you gotta live! I can't see my wife and I ever being on a super restrictive or no-tolerance type diet plan, we just try to keep the best daily diet we can, some days being better than others.

I've cut way back on alcohol the past couple of years. I'm going to be enjoying a little alcohol tomorrow evening for the first time since <checks Molly Ringwalds thread> Mar. 4. I even turned down a fridge full of beer at a recent family reunion! eek Moderation is key. smile

I can't stress enough how good working out makes you feel (Mrs. agrees)! Even if you don't like gyms, a cheap bench and set of weights is all you need. This weekend I'll be looking for a more comfortable dedicated curl bar.

++++++++++

One of the biggest problems IMO is portion sizes, they're absurd! Yeah, I know you can take it with you (and I do) except that I'd rather enjoy a smaller indulgence and leave it [the indulgent eating] at the restaurant. Sometimes splitting a plate is perfect, but this can take away from variety which has become more important to me that quantity. At places we frequent ("frequent" being relative), we have it down pat what to order.

After a concert Saturday night we had a rare splurge of dessert at a Waffle House. We normally get different things for variety and we share, these are "Small Size" slices!

Check out the numbers:

==========
Regular Slice..........520-880 Calories
Small Slice..........260-440 Calories

http://www.wafflehouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/FY16_OP5_no-price_menu_Lunch-Dinner-2048.png
==========

Going by calories, a "Regular Slice" would have been *twice* the size you see in my pic! That would be about a quarter of a pie?! IMO, there should be an even smaller option like the slice of cheese cake you use to get at Chick-fil-A (which was more of what I was expecting).

I believe the *amount* we eat is at least an equal factor of the current weight problem as to *what* we eat.

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#4259371 - 05/12/16 04:33 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Online Centaurian
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,383
Miami, FL USA
That pecan pie slice looks like a standard slice not me and not "small". I don't know, maybe Louisiana is just like Texas where "bigger is better"? biggrin

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 05/12/16 04:33 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4259376 - 05/12/16 04:41 PM Re: The SimHQ Diet and Training Thread - everyone feel free to join [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,105
Chucky Online sosad
Veteran
Chucky  Online Sosad
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,105
UK
Just back from the doctor.He tells me my BP is now 'perfect' and has come down since my last 24hr test.Whatever I'm doing he says keep doing it.Now to work on the Cholesterol level.I'm really quite pleased with myself.


EV's are the Devils matchbox.
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