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#4251774 - 04/22/16 01:21 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Why is the MiG-21 grounded?


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#4251826 - 04/22/16 02:41 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Not sure, I just checked the Bug Tracker and wasn't seeing anything specific that's a block.

Quite a few people are having trouble with the Afterburner not engaging, this is believed to be a problem with the game taking Keyboard inputs.

Saphir Radar is apparently having trouble operating to find and lock aircraft.

And there's a general post today on the ED Forums saying that it doesn't seem to work in 2.0.2, but there's no details and I haven't seen any official notice of it, though It wouldn't surprise me.

EDIT: Whoops, totally missed the 2.0.2 changelog, MiG-21 is apparently nonfunctional according to that.

To be honest I haven't been following DCS development that closely as I've been too busy in BMS.


Last edited by Tirak; 04/22/16 02:42 PM.
#4251865 - 04/22/16 03:37 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Not having tried it, my first guess would be the ongoing DRM problems the 21 has had. However, there could just be such a large number of serious bugs they feel it easier to tell people not to bother to use it in 2 and stick to 1.5 pending the next patch.




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#4251910 - 04/22/16 05:33 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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..or, you know, it's just a simple crash on load due to the cutting edge branch 2.0.X is.


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#4251943 - 04/22/16 07:02 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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oh lucky us it's just a simple crash, imagine if it was an advanced crash.
The result would probably be totally different.

#4251947 - 04/22/16 07:22 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted By: theOden
oh lucky us it's just a simple crash, imagine if it was an advanced crash.
The result would probably be totally different.


Sorry to take the time to dispel strange conspiracy theories.

Also sorry that your Alpha testing version is not perfect and without flaws.


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#4251951 - 04/22/16 07:33 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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No worries Cobra.
We see different things.
You see a minor issue with your module, I see a total desync between the core product owner, ED, and their 3rd party contractors.
The repetitive issues with the 21, be it activations or other issues, will of course add to the decision making of bying a future module - you do understand that? What you see from the inside is most probably way different than what we customers see.
We on the outside can only decide from what we see.

#4251956 - 04/22/16 07:51 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted By: theOden
No worries Cobra.
We see different things.
You see a minor issue with your module, I see a total desync between the core product owner, ED, and their 3rd party contractors.
The repetitive issues with the 21, be it activations or other issues, will of course add to the decision making of bying a future module - you do understand that? What you see from the inside is most probably way different than what we customers see.
We on the outside can only decide from what we see.


I really do make it a point not to accept critiscism when the product in question is an alpha version and the customer has a perfectly functioning alternate version to fly in. (that is, unless it's constructive)

I'm really not sure where the desync is supposed to lie either. Everyone, from top to bottom was aware that the MiG-21 was crashing in this particular revision. Considering, again, that the product in question is an alpha, such issues are not (and should not) be considered blockers.

Certainly- I now better understand why some companies are very reluctant to host open, public testversions.

Last edited by Cobra847; 04/22/16 07:55 PM.

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#4251960 - 04/22/16 07:59 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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oh, ok.

#4251961 - 04/22/16 08:03 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Is four years considered a long time for a product to remain in Alpha? Is it then going to be in Beta for another 4 years? Just wondering if 8 years will be the tipping point where complaints/criticism will be considered valid.

The whole market shift to paying for unfinished software has not done this industry any favors IMO.


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#4251993 - 04/22/16 09:39 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
Is four years considered a long time for a product to remain in Alpha? Is it then going to be in Beta for another 4 years? Just wondering if 8 years will be the tipping point where complaints/criticism will be considered valid.

The whole market shift to paying for unfinished software has not done this industry any favors IMO.



At the risk of being given a "dreaded green box", Cobra is rather clearly referring to the MiG-21 in DCS 2.0, as 2.0 is still in alpha, and not DCS 1.5.

#4251996 - 04/22/16 09:55 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Since these mig-21 lovers who are trying so hard to derail the hawk efm thread in support of VEAO..... fear not my fellow hawk lovers and haters, I am already in talks with my producer regarding script aggreements and NDA aggreements for my next thread. LN seem to be left out of blunt honest opinions, merely due to the tomcat project that quite a few supporters don't want to see canned. However, brace yourself gents change is on the horizon.

LN just haven't pissed me off enough to deserve such awesome reviews and personal views on their aircraft, I am more than happy to review your aircraft Cobra as your feeling left out. So I have ordered a search and rescue crew complete with sniffer dogs to find it burried under the mountains of dust in my virtual hanger. Once you sort out the FAA drama, give me a shout and ill take it up and give you the review your future fans are dying to hear.

#4251997 - 04/22/16 09:56 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Tirak]  
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Originally Posted By: Tirak
Originally Posted By: Force10
Is four years considered a long time for a product to remain in Alpha? Is it then going to be in Beta for another 4 years? Just wondering if 8 years will be the tipping point where complaints/criticism will be considered valid.

The whole market shift to paying for unfinished software has not done this industry any favors IMO.



At the risk of being given a "dreaded green box", Cobra is rather clearly referring to the MiG-21 in DCS 2.0, as 2.0 is still in alpha, and not DCS 1.5.


I guess since the Hawk and Mig-21 are both in Beta but have versions residing in an Alpha branch...they can be called Balphas? The same point applies...with modules remaining in an unfinished state for years even though they have been sold to the public...you can shrug off valid criticism and any responsibility citing it's "Alpha/Beta" state.


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#4251998 - 04/22/16 09:58 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Yeah I feel uncertain as well about what was called Alpha. The latest DCS version, or the Hawk?


Still loving the Fishbed though, best DCS module there is!

#4251999 - 04/22/16 10:02 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Tirak]  
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Originally Posted By: Tirak
At the risk of being given a "dreaded green box",



.....no those are reserved for members making personal attacks.

#4252003 - 04/22/16 10:12 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Force10]  
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EDIT: The quote reply didn't work, this is in regards to Force10's reply to me.

That's uncalled for and you know it.

DCS 1.5 is the current stable version of DCS that we should judge module integrity on. DCS 2.0 is a developer alpha program. It's in constant flux, and it breaks things left right and center whenever an update is put out. Fixes in 1.5 do not always work in 2.0 and vise verse. If you want to judge the MiG, then do so where it's been released to Beta, 1.5. Are there problems with the module? Of course. Has there been a huge issue with Activations, yes. There are plenty of areas to go after LN for mistakes and delays, but judging the product based on its showing in 2.0, which is unstable at the best of times, is unfair to say the least. It would be like comparing a release in Prepar3d and FSX, similar games, but not the same. You wouldn't go around saying RAZBAM is terrible if it released a Mirage that worked perfectly in FSX, but suffered problem in Prepar3d.

I would also like to point out, the list of completed modules is 4 aircraft long. The A-10C, the Blackshark, the F-86 and the MiG-15Bis. Notice anything similar about these modules? They're all BST and ED modules. ED, which has free access to the code, and hasn't released a module in years, and BST, which has a special close relationship to ED given it's made of former devs and has a special agreement. Every other third party is in beta, hell even BST's 2 helicopters, which have been in development for longer than the other Beta modules are still incomplete, with features missing.

If I'm misinterpreting what you're saying Force, my apologies, but I just wanted to make my position a bit clearer cheers


Last edited by Tirak; 04/22/16 10:13 PM.
#4252006 - 04/22/16 10:20 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Tirak]  
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....and here gents is another fine example of a satisfied VEAO customer brainwashed into drawing comparisons between FSX, 1.5, 2.02 Razbam, LN, DCS and the like still trying to prove to himself his money was wisely spent on the purchase of the HAWK

Originally Posted By: Tirak
That's uncalled for and you know it.

#4252011 - 04/22/16 10:34 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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The HUD and Doppler radar still don't get repaired on the Black Shark. This has been the case since its release, so it's hardly finished in any other sense than that ED has dropped support for it.

#4252016 - 04/22/16 10:42 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Tirak]  
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Originally Posted By: Tirak
I would also like to point out, the list of completed modules is 4 aircraft long. The A-10C, the Blackshark, the F-86 and the MiG-15Bis. Notice anything similar about these modules? They're all BST and ED modules. ED, which has free access to the code, and hasn't released a module in years, and BST, which has a special close relationship to ED given it's made of former devs and has a special agreement. Every other third party is in beta, hell even BST's 2 helicopters, which have been in development for longer than the other Beta modules are still incomplete.


Hhhmm. I don't think ED know what their own definition of early access/alpha/beta is. Go and take a look at the F86 sub-forum.......Nate and Skatezilla offer completely different interpretations of what 'released' is. You're claiming the F86 is complete yet it's still full of glaring bugs with a constant flow of fixes. I suppose if enough people attempt to justify that certain modules are complete/incomplete/released/supported/unsupported then ED are covering all their bases even though the module is obviously nowhere near finished.

Like I've said before, I was playing Blackshark in 2008 on the Caucasus map, fast forward to 2016 and I can now play Blackshark with glaring bugs on an unfinished Caucasus map alongside a job lot of unfinished modules that have been in the same sorry state for a number of years. There is an option to play on the Nevada map without missions and without a chunk of content and functionality that we were supposed to see about 4 years ago. ED are clearly in reverse.

At what point does 'not fit for purpose' become valid? I'd rather ED didn't answer that question either, I'm sure they have a whole range of answers that have the same meaning as 'never'. Perhaps I'll get my great grand-kids to let me know when ED pull their finger out and actually finish something!


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#4252019 - 04/22/16 10:54 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Winfield, please don't lump me in with the coolaid drinkers who think the Hawk is god's gift to simming. You'll find my personal distaste for the way they run their company and the quality of product they've shoveled out to be only slightly less vitriolic than your own. I don't own the module, nor do I intend to purchase any other aircraft that they "produce".

I have however purchased the MiG-21Bis, and in that you have me guilty as charged, and while there is certainly valid criticism to be given, I would argue that of the third party DCS modules, there is none finer. Now if you mean to say that All DCS modules are awful aside from something like the A-10, then that's fine since it merely relates to your higher standards, given the filthy pleb that I am. But to place the MiG-21 on the same level as VEAO is disingenuous and you know it.

Paradaz: I'm not claiming the F-86 is complete, BST is. The list I provided is just the official one and doesn't represent any personal feelings on my part. But I would also like to point out, that the vast majority of complaints you wrote in your second and third paragraph are issues with ED, and not LN, who is the one I'm putting forth my opinion on.

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