Hi Jim,

Was wondering if you have anything on these two. Seems they are often confused with each other, and have various looks as that as well.

I have this for Krefft:




As well as this for Festner - taken from a ROF artist (I'm pretty sure he's wrong)


And a description from DSA that stated he actually flew a half-red D.III which was stock until right after the cockpit, which was painted completely red, covering all markings as well.

Anything you have to help me clarify this is appreciated.

Thanks,

James
'OvS'

This is exactly what DSA sent me many years ago: the 'done' was my notes when I was making the skins the first time around.

"JamesOvS:
There are two different periods and locations the affect the colors of
Jasta 11. The first period is from 11 October 1916 when Jasta 11 was at
La Brayelle Airfield west and south of Douai. In this period MvR had a lock on red on his Alb.D.III. The Jasta 11 Alb.D.III aircraft were from the first production batch, D.1910 to D.2309/16 and fell into the group with the centrally located radiator. The fabris surfaces were camouflaged in light green, dark olive green and rust brown on the top surfaces and sky blue on the fabric under surfaces. The struts, cowlings access doors, fittings, etc were light grey, tinged green.
Done - MvR's Alb.D.III fuselage, fins, rudder, all struts and wheel cover were painted red. this ncluded the fuselage and rudder crosses.

Done The Alb.D.III of LvR, the fuselage midway between the cockpit and empennage was painted red including, the fins, rudder and stabilizers. The elevator was painted yellow.

Done - Schäfer had the wheel covers, spinner and a band 300 mm wide behind the spinner painted red. The rear fuselage just aft of the cockpit, empennage
painted black. The rest of the aircraft was standard.

Done - Kurt Wolff's Alb.D.III 2099/16 had the rear fuselage aft of the cockpit and incluging the empennage painted plum. The rest of the aircraft is factory standard finish.

Done - Allmenroder's Alb.D.III is reported to be grey, however I have not seen a photograph of this machine.

Done - Lnt Krefft's Alb.D.III 1949/17 had a red spinner, red snake lines on the sides and top of the fuselage and red banding as well. The rest of the aircraft is standard factory finish.

The All red with other colors came after Jasta 11 moved to Roucourt airfield on 13 April 1917. Some time after this move,Jasta 11 was re-equipped with Alb. D.III machines from the second order, serial numbers D.600 to 649/17 and the third order, serial numbers D.750 to 799/17. These machines differed, they had the radiator moved to the right and the camouflage was in two colors on the upper surface of dark olive green and and pale green. Idflieg had directed the factories to cease using rust/red browns in their camouflage. The fabric under surfaces were sky blue.

Done - MvR had Alb.D.III 789/17,with the fuselage, fins, rudder, wheel covers and all struts were painted red. The fuslage and rudder crosses were over painted. The rest of the aircraft was standard factory finish.

Done - Kurt Wolff Alb.D.III 632/17 had the spinner, 300 mm nose band, and the tailplane painted green. The wheel covers, pale sky blue. The fuselage, fins rudder, and all struts were painted red. The fuselage and rudder crosses were over painted.

Done - Allmenroder' Alb.D.III 629/17, had the spinner, and nose band were painted white. The fuselage, fins, rudder, tailplane, and all struts fins, rudder, tailplane, wheel covers, wheel covers and all struts were painted red. The fuselage and rudder crosses were over painted.

Done - Ltn. Simon's Alb.D.III 2015/16 (first order, central radiator.) the fuselage, fins,rudder, tailplane, wheel covers, and all struts were painted red. Aft of the cockpit was a page green band, 900 mm wide. The rest of the aircraft was standard factory finish.

James, that is the extent of what I have on Jasta 11 Alb.D.III markings.
Blue skies,
Dan-San"

God speed OvS. Looking forward to this and I am guessing it will all be part of WOFF 3?

Typing it all, hold on.

Yes, that's the goal. The D.III is very special to Pol and I. It was one of the first models in WOFF, if not the first. Pol had made it for a game that we were supposed to work on with a Russian crew called Sikorsky, that honestly, I still believe was with some members which eventually made ROF. The D.III was really the first hi-end skinning I had done to that point, coming off of the days of RB3D modding and HASP mods, so my techniques were really not very good. A lot of cutting/pasting and blending. There is no shading, or hi-res graphics. If you look at the skins individually, you can really see how bad they look. I did not know how to make a deep layered template at that point and was not familiar with weather in a hi-resolution level. I'm not ashamed, for when I did them, it was the best I could do... 10+ years ago.

After having a conversation with Pol and Sandbagger when we all met in 2014, I decided it was something that needed to be done, a complete referb and adding in more. So after almost 2 years, I'd like to get this done and in the next version.

Fingers crossed... I'm well over halfway done, with a lot more to do.

All the best,

OvS

Regarding your first post:

The top illustration is 100% not Krefft's machine. That this Alb is Krefft's machine is an old yet mega-persistent belief that will not die! But I know 100% it is not Krefft's machine. In fact, beyond that there's zero provenance for it to be his, it's not even a Jasta 11 machine! It's a Jasta 4 machine--and the markings are black, not red! It's Kurt von Döring's machine. This info from German researcher Bruno Schmaeling who told me this in person in 2011 and then made me promise not to say anything about it. But not long ago I saw him talking about it on Facebook, so the cat's out of the bag.

As far as the number being 1949/16, there is zero proof of that. For years I've tried to match up the serial number and I came up with 2016/16 but that turns out to be Hans Hinsch's machine. Lance Bronnenkant has a different machine attributed to him (red and white vertical stripes), so I have not matched up the serial number. It is *awfully* hard to do! But I maintain it began with a 2 on that machine, not a 1. There are several Jasta 4 serial numbers possible but none that fit the photo very well. Trust me, I've spent many hours sweating in Photoshop trying to sleuth the answer. I can send you all THAT stuff if interested.

The second illustration is pure bunk, regardless of pilot. Wrong camo, non-existent serial number, wrong color, wrong markings (the stripe clearly went up to the nose, which was not solid; you can see this in photos).

For Festner’s plane being red from the cockpit back, I’ve seen no provenance for this. I’ve seen a profile of the plane drawn that way but no idea what source was used for these colors/markings. The photos I have of Festner near/in an Alb do not show such markings. Perhaps there is G-report on his downed plane. Let me check those reports and see, hold on… Okay, the only report I have does not have any indication of markings. But I have this photo that shows Festner's machine—at least this machine the photo, which was taken at Roucourt and thus late in his life, and assuming it actually was his—was unpainted. The wood grain is clearly visible. It is possible that Festner had a machine so painted and I just have never seen a photo of it or reference to it. I'll ask Bruno.



Now I’ll go through all the DSA stuff and your notes, etc. Stand by.

Man. this outpouring of knowledge is awesome and right up my alley.

Wow... I'm glad I asked. Ok, I can create von Dorning's skin based on this info, and get his correct in the game. I'd need something for Krefft and Festner. For Hans Hinsch, Shred and I agreed that I use a profile he found that we suspected was Hinsch's machine. It's in the game, take a look... but it's a red/white checkerboard vertical band that starts behind the pilot and wraps the entire fuselage, which is then followed by an array of horizontal longitudinal stripes, to the start of the elevator, then on to an all red tail.

Okay, I'm going to go plane by plane so I don't leave something out.

First: "There are two different periods and locations the affect the colors of Jasta 11. The first period is from 11 October 1916 when Jasta 11 was at La Brayelle Airfield west and south of Douai. In this period MvR had a lock on red on his Alb.D.III..."

Not to nitpick, but MvR didn't arrive at Jasta 11 until January 1917. In autumn of 1916, Jasta 11 was a Halberstadt Staffel--they had no Albs at all. Richthofen was the only pilot with an Alb, all the rest of the Staffel had Halberstadts, primarily Halberstadt D.Vs but there were some Halb DIIs scattered here and there, and a rare Halb DIII. Primarily Halb DVs, though. The Alb DIIIs began trickling in to Jasta 11 starting late January, and again in late February. Remember, in between they were grounded for the wing failures, so that threw a wrench into things.

The photos I've seen the LB and GvW attributed to Hinsch look nothing like that skin. I'll PM the photos--sorry, folks, but there is a new Jasta 11 book in the works and I don't want to spoil it for the authors. I'm sure you understand that if it were mine I'd post it for you.

Having said that, even though I've never seen a photo of a D.III so painted, I can't say Hinsch DIDN'T have one painted like that. So, not much help, but take it for what it's worth.

Meanwhile, LvR's machine: "The Alb.D.III of LvR, the fuselage midway between the cockpit and empennage was painted red including, the fins, rudder and stabilizers. The elevator was painted yellow."

I've not seen an absolutely identified photo of this machine (I'm not saying there isn't one, just that I haven't seen one. I've seen a lot but not everything.) Lothar describes his Alb as having "the elevator, rudder and rear part of the fuselage" in yellow. That gives the impression of a largely yellow bird! But then he goes on to say "In the air the entire machine appeared red to those on the ground as well as to the enemy fliers, for only a small part of the machine was painted a second color." So, red with yellow control surfaces, like Wolff or Allmenroeder's machines? The deal is LvR was referring to a single machine and he no doubt flew more than one. Early on he flew 2006/16, which had a red band on the cockpit. There is a photo of him in the machine when it is parked at Roucourt. Mind you, there is also a photo of MvR taking off in the machine at LaBrayelle! Manfred flew more—and likely scored in more—planes than just Le Petit Rouge. The gray areas are frustrating. There is a massive new MvR book in the works for publication in the very near future and I know the author of that would kill to know which Alb D.III MvR flew when.

Here are some photos and a profile I made of 2006/16. Identification of MvR in the machine taking off made by Lance Bronnenkant, via scans way bigger than will show here. BTW, I *highly* recommend his Manfred von Richthofen book, as well as all his other books: http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Max-Airmen-Aw...blue+max+airmen








Where did I get the fabric color for the rudder? Ms. Cleo told me. Note that on my profile I didn't get the nose exactly right. Right where the vertical engine cowls meet the wood there is a darker "ring." You see this on various Albs. This older profile is also missing a drag wire, and it appears the radiator plumbing should have been lagged, but generally, you get the idea of the band. (The red is based on RFC G-reports of Georg Simon's captured Alb DIII 2015/16. What was the exact color of 2006/16's band? No idea.)

I'll edit in a good photo of an Alb nose to show similar discoloration. Hold on.

Here's a view of an Alb DIII nose (600 or 750-series). See where the front cowls meet the wood, how it's darker there? Actually, it’s where the cowls vertically overlay the wood. You don’t always see this, but it’s on 2006/16, for sure.

“Kurt Wolff's Alb.D.III 2099/16 had the rear fuselage aft of the cockpit and including the empennage painted plum. The rest of the aircraft is factory standard finish.”

It is known now that 2099/16 wasn’t Wolff’s. The photo of that plane pranged on the railroad tracks was thought to be his and wound up there after he was shot in the hand, but reports indicate Wolff landed safely. And that happened in July, IIRC, and Wolff’s purple Alb was so damaged during a fight with a SPAD on 14 April that he had to retire it (this from Wolff’s diary). Afterwards, as did the rest of J11, he painted his planes red with personal colors on top. SO… How much of the plane in question was painted purple? Who knows? I’ll speculate that the entire fuselage was painted that way. This based on two other Albs of his that were fully painted red, save for his personal color markings (on at least one).

“Allmenroder's Alb.D.III is reported to be grey, however I have not seen a photograph of this machine.”
I haven’t either. This was in early March. He was on leave for most of April and didn’t return until late that month, when he received a new Alb DIII 629/17. Which brings us to:

“Allmenroder's Alb.D.III 629/17, had the spinner, and nose band were painted white. The fuselage, fins, rudder, tailplane, and all struts fins, rudder, tailplane, wheel covers, wheel covers and all struts were painted red. The fuselage and rudder crosses were over painted.”

This seems to be how it was. Remember, though, from what Lothar wrote Allmenröder could have had some white on the tail. In one shot of the elevator the counter-balance appears white—or is it just reflecting light? Argh! Need a better photo and/or angle. Note the flaking paint under the cockpit, rubbed off by boots, ladders, etc. Likely this revealed the natural wood color.





Crappy photo next, but is that white on the piece of visible elevator? Or reflection? I'll dig for the better version of this photo that I have.



BTW, just want to add I'm not denigrating DSA in any way. Although we disagreed here and there he was enormously helpful and generous to me. It's just that he's gone now and research continuously sallies forth.

Not to derail the thread JFM but I just placed an order for the book you suggested by Lance Bronnenkant a few posts back.
Since you are "the man" on this subject (MvR, J11) any other book recommendations are welcome.

Suffered an attack of sleep last night. Now I'll get back to this thread.

Duke, you won't be sorry! That book is fantastic, as are ALL the books in the "Blue Max Airmen" series that Lance is writing.

Okay: “Schäfer had the wheel covers, spinner and a band 300 mm wide behind the spinner painted red. The rear fuselage just aft of the cockpit, empennage painted black. The rest of the aircraft was standard.”

That describes ONE of Schaefer’s Albs, from late March/early April. The other Alb is from early March and looked similar except the outline around the serial number was a different shape, the wheel covers looked to be factory, and there was no red band around the nose.

Here is a comparison photo:




First, some big and better-resolution views: http://i.imgbox.com/abyxtACb.jpg

Now, the differences between these machines:

1. Border around serial number is rectangular at left. At right, it is “notched down” to include the “/16”.
2. Albatros logo painted over at left. Albatros logo painted around at right.
3. Black paint ends closer to the cockpit at left than it does at right.
4. Plane at left has an offset radiator. Plane at right has a central radiator.
5. Plane at left has a different anemometer attachment than at right.
6. Plane at left has a second round access hatch near fuselage vents. Plane at right does not.
7. Plane at left has no rigging diagram, as does plane at right.
8. Different wheel colors, spinner/front cowl colors, and different props. Garuda left, Axial right.

My understanding is the photo at left is from 13 April, and the photo at right, which is D.2062/16, is from 9 March. Thus, playing Devil’s Advocate, all the differences of the left (April) machine could have been conducted to the March machine at right. E.G: He shot his own prop so the prop was replaced. May have had the upper wings replaced for reasons lost to time. The hatch could have been added. Paint applied. Yadda. The only oddity I see is changing the border around the serial number. To change it from the March appearance to the April appearance they would have just painted across the bottom to even it up, but they would have had to scrape away the black in the upper right corner. Why bother with that? And why extend the black further forward on the fuselage? Doesn’t mean those things weren’t done, though. It could easily be explained with “Schaefer thought there wasn’t enough black on the fuselage and ordered it painted further forward. He also preferred an even border around the serial number and no Alb logo showing.” Done and done, and well plausible. So, plane in transition, or different planes? Who knows? Unless somebody has a clearer view of the April machine in which we can see its serial number. My unproven belief is it was two different planes.

Regardless, is the April machine the one Schaefer took to Jasta 28? Probably not. Schaefer was shot down 22 April and lost his machine between the lines. Which machine, though, admittedly, I don’t know. But in in a photograph of Schaefer standing in front of the D III that is thought to be red and black, the airplane has no second fuselage hatch near the vents. Props are different, too. The April shot looks like a Garuda prop and Jasta 28 plane has an Axial.




Furthermore, the Jasta 28 Alb (red/black) had a central radiator and the plane at right above has an offset radiator. For all three planes to be the same machine, the plane would start with a central radiator; wind up with an offset radiator a month later; then a month or so after that have a central radiator again. It would go from an Axial to a Garuda to an Axial prop. It would go from no second access hatch, to a second access hatch, back to no access hatch. Again, impossible? No. Likely? I doubt it.

Another possibility: Is the first post/April machine the one lost 22 April and the March machine 2062/17 the one that gets painted red/black that Schaefer takes with him? I don’t know. The flare tubes are differently styled and in different locations, and the red/black demarcation point appears further forward of the cross than is seen in the 9 March photos of the shot-prop D III. Different prop and a slightly offset handle in the wing cutout are seen, but that could have been added anytime.

Two more shots of D.2062/16:





BTW, Lance has another fantastic book out about Schaefer: http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Max-Airmen-Ge...blue+max+airmen Also covered in this volume are Bernert and Wolff.

Continuing: "The All red with other colors came after Jasta 11 moved to Roucourt airfield on 13 April 1917. Some time after this move,Jasta 11 was re-equipped with Alb. D.III machines from the second order, serial numbers D.600 to 649/17 and the third order, serial numbers D.750 to 799/17. These machines differed, they had the radiator moved to the right and the camouflage was in two colors on the upper surface of dark olive green and and pale green. Idflieg had directed the factories to cease using rust/red browns in their camouflage. The fabric under surfaces were sky blue."

As I discussed in another thread, the 600 and 750-series Albs did NOT have two-color-only camouflage. That discussion is here: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4229316/Re:_For_JFM,,_need..._OAW_D.II#Post4229316 To very briefly discuss it, the Idflieg directive did say to cease using venetian red but said NOTHING about using light/dark green instead. What it said was remove the venetian and use dark green and lilac. This wasn't implemented until the D.III(OAW) and D.V.

"MvR had Alb.D.III 789/17,with the fuselage, fins, rudder, wheel covers and all struts were painted red. The fuslage and rudder crosses were over painted. The rest of the aircraft was standard factory finish."

I know of no photo of this machine. It very well could have been painted like that, but as far as my understanding, it's a total guess. That machine arrived at Jasta 11 on 2 May 1917--right after MvR began a six-week leave. I seriously doubt a brand new war machine would just then sit around unflown for six weeks waiting for MvR to get back. It makes military sense that someone else flew the airplane and upon his return, as he often did, MvR flew it for a single victory. He could have flown more than one sortie with it, of course. But my unproven belief is if someone else had been flying it from 2 May, it had someone else's personal colors on it. If so, WHAT were they? No idea. But, as far as skinning, if you make this machine red that'd probably be more likely than leaving it unpainted.

Regarding 629/17, 632/17, and 2015/16, DSA has those right. I'll add that although the 600-series Albs had the square footstep in the nose, 629/17 is one that did NOT.

Sounds like you guys are pulling out all the stops for WOFF 3. OBD's passion driven dedication shines through again!

Amazing detail exchange here - great collaboration!

JFM, do I see that correct: in the last photo, the propeller blade is shot through
by the pilots own, badly synchronised machine gun?

Yes, that's exactly what happened. As a result, Schaefer had to force land his machine. That many holes in a prop would make it unbalanced and cause severe vibration to the point you'd want to shut the engine off immediately.

JFM;

This is amazing information. Too bad we don't have a historical thread for this kind of stuff!
I'm enjoying the reads immensely!!