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#4234035 - 02/27/16 12:14 AM Jones Hatred Of Bishop  
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Does anyone know the origins of Taffy Jones intense dislike of Billy Bishop?

They never served together. 74 Sqn in 1918 was based at Clairmarais North and 85 at Petit Synthe.

Other than the fact that Bishop received medals galore and much public recognition, whereas Mannock (whom Jones worshipped) received few medals and no public recognition, I can't understand the basis for his hate.

Did it grow after the war? Or had it's foundations during? The only common link I can find is that Grid Caldwell served almost 8 months with Bishop in 60 Sqn in 1917, before taking over 74 Squadron in 1918. And Caldwell didn't think much of Bishop.

Could he have carped on about it every time Bishop received a new accolade? To the point that Jones hate build from that?


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#4234043 - 02/27/16 12:43 AM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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Excellent question that I will also be waiting an answer for.
I also know the William Fry was another outspoken pilot who did not think much of Bishop.
Personally without more knowledge of the "inside stuff" I am willing to give Bishop the benefit of the doubt. Have to as he has been a hero since childhood for me.
I have a book on Jones. I'll see if I can find something.

#4234046 - 02/27/16 12:58 AM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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Okay did some quick checking and I see nothing obvious except one thing.
Mick Mannock.
Jones was a great admirer of Mannock (sometimes called a protégé of his) and wrote a couple of books on him.
I suspect the victory total thing - and the many questions some have about Bishops claims - led to the dislike as it stole some light from Mannock.
It was Jones that claimed Mannock had one more victory (73) then Bishop's official total. This figure stuck around for years but has, apparently, now been downgraded to a lesser figure (61 IIRC) while Bishops remains as claimed. The victory numbers changing up and down over the years is a whole 'nother story.

As an aside the whole thing of Bishop and his claims is interesting. He claimed 72 which for most he did not have a aerial or ground witness to back up his claim. Yet all were confirmed by higher authority. (Capt. Scott (CO of 60) and/or Wing Headquarters).

#4234065 - 02/27/16 03:08 AM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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Yup old Billy would fly lone wolf patrols and his claims would sometimes be approved by his Chain of Command. Pretty sweet deal. He must have had his WOFF claims settings switched to Easy.

One lesser known fact about Bishop is that he finished dead last on his class at the Royal Military College in Canada. Hell of a pilot, not much of an acedemic.

Last edited by Dark_Canuck; 02/27/16 03:09 AM.
#4234119 - 02/27/16 07:39 AM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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Well I am not trying to blame Bishop here.
He flew, shot at planes, they spun down, he claims them. OOC claims didn't stop being good until 1918 I think.
Anyway his claims were confirmed by higher authority so if there is blame I guess that's where it goes.

Sometimes the "anti-Bishop" stuff may go a little far. Like the story that during his VC mission (that folks claim didn't happen and granted independent confirmation is not there) he landed his plane somewhere, removed his Lewis, and shot his own plane up.

I read somewhere recently that some modern author, using German records, was able to confirm %-wise as many possible victims from the loss records for Bishop as any other British ace.
IIRC the % of confirmations with German records was, generally speaking, in the 20's % wise for most of the big names - even Mannock.

Bottom line: I don't know what to think except Bishop was probably over optimistic like most pilots but his were always confirmed by HQ.

#4234165 - 02/27/16 11:32 AM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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Duke, am I understanding you correctly that on average only 20% of claims were confirmed?


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#4234166 - 02/27/16 11:35 AM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Duke means that only 20% of claims were consistent with German Records from the time.

#4234176 - 02/27/16 12:34 PM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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The British system of confirming claims seems to have been VERY optimistic for most of the war. But you can't blame the pilots for that; they just played by the rules given to them, even though the rules may not have worked all too well in reflecting the reality of air combat.

It was much more strict for the French, Belgians and Germans. As far as I know, they simply didn't accept those optimistic out-of-control claims - you needed some kind of proof to get anywhere.


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#4234177 - 02/27/16 12:40 PM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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EDIT: Hasse posted the same time as I.

HS and DC:
Dark Canuck - You are correct in that is what I am saying but I did not do the research and this is the claim of another person.
I will see if I can find it again and post the link here.
IIRC it was not meant to be a blanket statement for all as only a few of the "big guns" we're checked.
And how complete the records are, after the records disaster of WW2, only an expert can say.

And again I will stress that in British claims FTL (Forced To Land) and OOC (Out Of Control) claims counted as a perfectly fine victory depending on the time period of the air war.
So to our previous example if a British pilot shoots at a German plane and its pilot, realizing he is in trouble "spins away into the clouds" we now have a perfect OOC claim for the British pilot.
His victory if seen by other pilots but no German plane is destroyed nor pilot killed as he flew home for a schnapps to celebrate his close call.
Going strictly by memory FTL victories were good in 1916 and OOC victories were good until very late 1917/1918?
Taking Albert Ball as an example (by memory) 16 of his 42/44 claims were FTL's and OOC's and this was fine and accepted.

If I was forced to guess I would say the British system was never meant to be a "serious" one just a ball park figure done for the morale of the pilots and observers who were suffering awful losses with little to show as 90% (if not more) of the action occurred over German territory. They did not have the luxury of taking a touring car or making some calls or having an aide chase down the claim confirmation for them. Or a Department made just for that.
Victories for the Brits were recommended or not by the squadron CO then confirmed or not by Wing. Simple as that and not much fuss.

Last edited by DukeIronHand; 02/27/16 01:18 PM.
#4234185 - 02/27/16 01:27 PM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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I can't remember where I read it now, but I have seen the same thing written on several occasions over the years.

At the end of the day, it is a rather morbid practice and regardless of the accuracy of the claims, Pilots did not survive long without a heck of a lot of skill and double that in luck.

From all accounts, Bishop was a great pilot, as was Mannock. I honestly think it is a shame that we (as in society) after the fact cast such doubt over these men who did this job day after day.

#4234188 - 02/27/16 01:44 PM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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If I was forced to guess I would say that a lot of the animosity from Bishops contemporaries starts when he is awarded the VC (airfield raid) that apparently, even to this day in their defense, has never really been supported by hard evidence that I am aware of. Though the records of the suspected Jasta in question (Jasta 5 IIRC) apparently did not survive WW2 intact though interviews with its members apparently do not recall the incident.
And this theme has been carried on by a modern audience.

#4234190 - 02/27/16 01:53 PM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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Yeah, even I have to admit, the VC should not have been awarded for that.

My point was more general though. There are several aces who have been attacked rather viciously after the war. Raymond Collishaw is another that I can think of off the top of my head that I have seen questioned quite strongly.

#4234198 - 02/27/16 02:04 PM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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A further thought, as it pertains to this whole thread just to muddy the waters further (I just remembered it) is in regard to German records.
Apparently a plane could be burned up or smashed into a thousand pieces but if the pilot was unhurt (or just very minor injuries) the loss was not always recorded in German records.

#4234370 - 02/28/16 02:02 AM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand
A further thought, as it pertains to this whole thread just to muddy the waters further (I just remembered it) is in regard to German records.
Apparently a plane could be burned up or smashed into a thousand pieces but if the pilot was unhurt (or just very minor injuries) the loss was not always recorded in German records.


I have to say that that statement seems rather strange to me. Surely any loss of a plane would be noted. If you needed a replacement aircraft you would have had to justify it.


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#4234471 - 02/28/16 02:30 PM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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Well I don't do original research (wish I did) I just read a lot of books by the ones that do.
The above statement came from Norman Frank's and his cabal of co-authors and researchers whose specialty is aircraft losses and claims from all sides. At least that's what the bulk of his books seem to be about.

Maybe the loss rate was so high - not only from combat but from the large number of accidents and just "wear & tear" - that a steady stream of aircraft to a frontline Jasta would probably be very common. And if someone was not hurt (removed from duty) then "just send us another plane Army Depot - we need three" may have been adequate.
And I am sure aircraft losses were tracked in some form or fashion but perhaps not all were reported properly to the correct department if no injury occurred. Therfore the loss wasn't tracked as a combat loss. Don't know exactly.

#4234674 - 02/29/16 05:18 AM Re: Jones Hatred Of Bishop [Re: Boom]  
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Peter Kilduff has written a new book on Bishop, titled "Billy Bishop VC Lone Wolf Hunter: The RAF Ace Re-Examined". Awful title, but a very good read. Kilduff is non judgemental, simply puts out the facts as he ahs been able to determine them. Seems he has managed to account for roughly 20 of Bishop's claims, and has also found some very interesting facts concerning the airfield raid. Well worth reading.
http://www.amazon.com/Billy-Bishop-Lone-...OS5C4VX4J4VERWS

But back to Jones.

Bishop certainly did have the reputation of being a lone wolf, but that mostly stemmed from his activities in 60 Sqn. And not at all unusual for a good pilot in 1917.

When Bishop took over 85 Sqn as commander, he was more....shall we say......disciplined in his approach to leading. He insisted in formation flying and co-operation in the air; although he wasn't the kindest (or caring) of commanders to new pilots. And yes he did swan off by himself every now and then, but woe betide anyone else who did.

But Jones wouldn't have been aware of that as he never crossed paths with Bishop during the Great War. So either his dislike of Bishop grew after the war or......was he influenced by 'Grid' Caldwell, his commander in 74 Sqn? Caldwell and Bishop did serve together in 60 Sqn in 1917, so perhaps Caldwell made caustic remarks about Bishop from time to time.

If so it would have had to be more than once, for any impression to be made on other people such as Jones. It's the only explanation I can think of.


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