The Su-25T is free. IF ED did go and add a clickable cockpit, I doubt it would be free. So then we'd be back at square one. People would complain about getting something for nothing and then having to pay for it later.

@ scrim, I feel your pain about memorizing key bindings ..... that's why I made this

[img]http://i.imgur.com/UleFXeg.jpg?1[/img]

Takes the guess work out of what is where

It's an interesting theory but it's never been done. The only simplified planes ever released or even planned have been FC3. Even the Hawk is complex if unfinished.



No non-clickable cockpit module has ever been made clickable. I've heard info that the FC3 planes are so incompatible with the clickable cockpit scheme that there is no converting them. They would have to be done over entirely. Surely the FC3 paid aircraft would come first if they ever did redo them.

I hope they do make an Su-25(T) module(s) for DCS. I would buy them. The real airplane is very interesting and complex. The simplified FC3 version is so basic that I want to cry compared to a real simulation of it. If anyone complains if a true DCS Su-25 comes out that why pay when the FC3 version is out there... that is the day you learn who the real total idiots are.

If ED would go ahead with an Su-25T module, there's no reason for why they would have to get rid of the free FC version. There'd be massive differences between them of course, so I doubt people wouldn't think it's worth it.

I don't see a study sim Su-25T coming along. Only 8 or so were ever built. May as well go with the better TM version, which was also very limited. If anything the SM would be done. But that all depends on how much info they can get on the new variants. My understanding is the T's RWR was classified and works nothing like the real world counterpart, and if that hasn't changed then I don't see any modernized Su-25s coming out at the study sim level.

Huh. Oh well, never did follow Russian aircraft too much, actually thought the T was around in a numbers worth mentioning.

Well so it seems there is a lot more to the A10C which I own. However I find the Su25T very helpful in learning how to fight. It's similar in a lot of ways (russian, systems, Vichers rockets) to the original Ka50 I had. But with the simplified engines, hydraulics, electricals and navigation it leaves you to focus on learning the weapons, the sensors, finding targets, tactics, knowing when to run away etc. etc.

I will eventually move up to the A10C and maybe the Ka50, but I'm just having fun learning without all the clutter of systems management. Don't get me wrong it's great and all, I come from the likes of cold-start PMDG and SSTSim FS2004, but I just need to up my aerial combat game, I suck at killing and am too good at being killed.

An advantage of the Su25T is you can die, relaunch the campaign and be back on the target in under 3 minutes... and I do this a lot experimenting with different ideas on how to kill but not be killed.

I do like the Su-25T, but the A-10C is actually far easier to fly as a CAS aircraft. SPIs, markpoints, creating waypoints on the fly all tremendously help in finding and attacking ground targets.

Whenever I switch from the Warthog to the Frogfoot it feels like I'm hunting with a bow and a tomahawk again.

There were slightly more Ka-50s built than Su-25Ts.

Of course, I'd rather fly the T than the stock Su-25 with its WWII-era cockpit! Yeah, it weighs less so the performance is a bit better, but it's still not up to tangling with any enemy planes, so why bother?



The Jedi Master

I'm not sure there's a reliable source of good enough info to make an ASM Su-25T of any version (The T seems to be a bit of a flying experiment).

For example, not much is known about the actual RWR used in it - AFAIK.

For a plane that was in such limited production it's likely that all don't have the same fit anyway. The one used in the majority of the planes may not be the one that was planned for full production, maybe only one or two ever had it. Maybe none did because it was lagging in development separately and the first planes would've had a different system and been retrofitted later.

It's basically a guessing game, determining what a production standard might have been like and its actual capabilities versus a bunch of marketing.

We'll never know how good the RAH-66 might have been or how it might have sucked, for example. We only know what Sikorsky and the US Army said it was going to be like.




The Jedi Master

My understanding is that the KA-50 isn't being procured in any notable numbers either. Like the Su-25T, original Su-35 and countless other late Soviet/Russian weapon systems it will never enter mass production. The KA-52 is actually getting a number of orders though.

Not sure if this warrants a new thread, but I'd throw it here anyway.

So forgetting for the moment I am using the Su25T (I actually think it's ideal for learning this stuff).

I have managed to complete all of the single missions, including the command post strike (which will allow you to kill the bunkers, but only with 2 direct hits from 500Kr LGBs. I am doing well in the campaign, but repeated failures on one particular type of mission points me to my weakness.

CAS.

Let me know how normal this is and how you would approach the situation.

1. Mission planner map shows you 2 armor units each with 3 tanks. One group North, one South. In the middle there is a 3 strong mobile artilery group with a single SA-13 SAM behind hit. Behind those there is the command post, which amounts to some transports, the mobile command unit itself and a SA-9 (or similar IR short range launcher)

2. As it's a CAS role, I pick the closest armor group to my friendlys and plot of course to keep me as far away from the SAMs as possible and provide an evac route back out of range of the enemy.

3. I take off and fly towards my initial point. I have labels on for now, so I am very surprised when the battle field looks nothing like the tactical planning map. There are WAY, WAY more units on the enemy side.

4. I decide to recon the whole area and fly a circle around the battle field, keeping 5nm-10nm from the units. I determine there are at least 3x fixed radar guided AAA units and another 3 or 4 mobile AAA units. 3 or 4 whole groups of units including 3 or 4 more SAM sites amongst them.

5. I realise my initial plan would involve me flying straight over several of these smaller SAM baring units. I struggle to find a clear approach vector, at least one with an egress option, so decide to cut a path using long range Kh29T and hopefully taking out some AAA or SAMs.

6. Having hit one maybe 2 air defenses from range I order my wingman in to do the same while I watch. It's a snuff movie. The idiot barrels straight into the middle of the battle field and from my vantage point it looks like a fireworks display. In variable he gets blown into little pieces.

7. I decide to try and hit a few tanks in one group in a hell-for-leather high speed pass. I line them up, get the shuval trained on them and start a run in with Vickrs. While I patiently watch the range to launch slowly drop the RWR starts screaming at me, the AAA are locked on me. I get to launch and fire 2 at the lead tank. I wait... I wait... I wait... the tank goes BANG.

8. I break hard, full alpha, 110* bank, aiming for the gap in the trees behind or the hill to the North. Green tracer fire arcs across the window, then red from the other side. THUMP, THUMP, THUMP AAA goes through my wing. THUMP, "Hydraulic failure!", my left engine is out. The missile launch rapid beep and I'm popping flares now on the tree tops, full throttle, 600km/h. THUMP, "WHOOP, WHOOP, WHOOP", the master caution is sounding again and a list of failures as long as your arm gets so boring I eject while I still can. I watch my one winged, tailless Su25T roll over and crash as it gets hit by a further 2 IR SAMS and constant streams of tracers rip it to pieces before it can even hit the ground.

I am back at the menu and rejoining the campaign... it gives me the same mission. It's ground hog day and I'm not even flying the hog.

What am I doing wrong?

I can see that at point 7 I am making the same mistake I called my wingman and idiot for.... barreling in to the middle of it. But I can't fly around admiring the scenery all day. Should I pick off random targets around the perimeter? Should I hit the command post from behind?

I also tried picking off air defences with the plan to refuel rearm and kill the armor, but taking on a radar guided AAA unit with Vichkrs ends in tears way too often.

You're playing a mission made by someone with no idea how air combat works.

Yup. Unfortunately a lot of mission designers don't know the first thing about how anything related to any airforce has worked, ever. Thus they sometimes literally speaking put in enough air defences to make the staff of a division jealous, to make a mission where you're tasked with attacking a platoon or company sized force more "challenging".

Hmmm. I'm slowly beginning to accept this. I have come down to one mission again and I can't make any traction on it. They are in a wedge shape, SAMs and AAA on each of the three corners. There just isn't a good attack vector that doesn't take you into a wasp nest of air defenses.

Then there is the load out. 2 Vickrs pods, fine. 2 29L lasar guided missles/rockets, fine, though the vickers are faster. 2 500lb dumb bombs... WTF? 2 heavy rocket pods. I did try a rocket attack once, it didn't end well. Once you get within 2nm of these units they cut you into little ribbons.

I edited the mission to change the load out and tried the Fantasma pod and AntiRadar missiles, but the AAA is too smart for that. They wait till you fly over them before they turn on the radar. If you run out away from them to turn in they turn the radar off again. If you try a hard break and get back round on them before the shutdown you are too close and even though you can get a missile off they... cut you into little ribbons.

If I am to complete the mission and advance the campaign I may have to resort to taking just 29T TV guided missiles. Killing SAMS/AAA and then returning for another 2 TV missiles... rinse repeat until I can finally go in and mop up the armor.

Alternatively I could edit the mission and remove all the hidden spikey stuff from the map and leave it with the original briefing stuff only, that I can probably handle fine.

That is incorrect. With the updates to the FC3 cockpits making them clickable is completely possible. I remember reading somewhere that the F-15's switches and dials all animated, they just need to be attached to systems.

I'm just glad the su-25T interactive training missions work again. Very fun to fly and learn this great sim. I haven't even blown anything up yet just flying around is fun.

So I'm editing the mission I can't get past. Started by unhiding all the hidden units. Let say I just employed some spies or something.

There are...
12 x ZSU-23 fixed radar AAA emplacements.
4 x ZSU-23-4 mobile radar AAA
2 x SA13
1 x SA9

On closer inspection, some of the innocently named tank, arty or HQ groups also have SA-18s within them.

There are 3 main units of tanks on the front line hidden in towns. EACH is defended by 2 or 3 AAA emplacements and a SAM.

I'm beginning to think if this was reality, we are not doing a CAS mission to defend allied troops from an attack, we are supporting an attack on their main air defense line! That is no place for a toad! If I have to fly a toad into that and do any good it will have to be high level bombing on the general positions of the AAA until they are thinned out or run out of ammo shooting at the Ka50s.

I'm determined this will not beat me though.

How do you determine the "Success" exit condition for a mission that is within a campaign?