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#4225401 - 02/04/16 06:58 PM Combat Mission  
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So my 5 year old son was rooting through some boxes in my closet and he pulled out several old game manuals that had covers that caught his attention. Among them was the manual to CMBO. So I ended up reading through it and it brought back memories of how much fun I had with it. I had also then purchased CMBB and enjoyed them both.

So that made me look in to it again and I checked their website. I was surprised, but not shocked, to see their pricing, especially on older titles. I'm not opposed to paying that, after all with all the hours I spend playing, gaming is easily the most cost-effective form of entertainment for me. Take EU IV for example. Through the years I've probably dropped $100 on it and DLC. I've played it for 2000 hours. That's a paltry nickle an hour. But I also want to make sure if I get a new(er) CM game I want to get the right one.

I think I want to stay with WW2 games, although maybe I could be convinced to try a 'modern' title. Which CM game would you buy if you could buy only one? Why? If not a WW2 game, which WW2 game would you buy?

As I recall, it was the operations that made me stop playing all those years ago. For whatever reason, I need to have some sort of campaign or season to play in my games. Like in FIFA or racing games I pretty much only play a career or season, aside from probably the first try.

It's the same in strategy games. I rarely, if ever, play a single scenario other than to learn the basics. In CMBB I would play the operations, but there were things about them that I felt were sterile or incomplete, and left me wishing it was more fleshed out. So here we are 15 years later. What's the story with the operations or campaigns or whatever they may call it now?

I was looking at Battle for Normandy. Could anyone who played CMBO or CMBB compare the state of operations between then and now, or in comparison to CMBN? How have they changed?

And finally, is there a place to buy these games aside from Battlefront?


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#4225509 - 02/04/16 10:59 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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GOG has CMBO and it's awesome...still.

#4225588 - 02/05/16 06:50 AM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  

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Newer CM games (CMBN, CMFI, CMRT, CMBS and soon CMFB) are only available on BF webstore. All of them have single missions and couple of campaigns. Campaigns are mostly linear. Just a linked set of scenarios. The game keeps a record of every scenario in a campaign so when you finish it you will get combined statistics. But that's about it. Of course you also have multiplayer and quickbattles.

Remember that every CM title has a demo so you can test them. In each demo there are usually 2-3 scenarios to play. I suggest the CMRT demo as it's based on the newest version of game engine - 3.0, but other demos are also fine if you prefer a different theatre smile

#4225682 - 02/05/16 03:08 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks gents. It's a shame about the operations. I've always thought the series could use a campaign system similar to what's used in the later Close Combat games or in the Total War series. A strategic map where you move your various battlegroups and when two opposing forces occupy or attempt to occupy a certain region then a battle is fought. If each is moving in to it there is a meeting engagement, and attack/defend if a force is already there.

Having a go at a demo is a fine suggestion and I think I will do so.


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#4225862 - 02/05/16 11:28 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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If you want a WW2 title and can only buy one, get the Normandy bundle that includes everything. It has the best bang for the buck, and it is the most fleshed out WW2 CMx2 game right now. You can play campaigns from Normandy through Market Garden, and there are a plethora of single scenarios.

If you want a modern title, you can't go wrong with either Black Sea or Shock Force. They're both a lot of fun. I think I actually like the modern games better than the WW2 ones. Bang for the buck goes to the Shock Force bundle. The modules expand the game to include Brits, USMC, and various NATO countries, and there are lots of campaigns and scenarios to play. However, it's on an older version of the CMx2 engine. Black Sea is more cutting edge military technology than Shock Force, and it's on the most recent version of CMx2. Only the base game is available, though. You'll be limited to playing US/RUS/UKR forces.

I'd also recommend spending some time with a demo before you buy. CMx2 titles play a lot different than the old CMx1 games, and with that comes some quirkiness you'll have to get used to. Don't get me wrong, they're good games, but they also have some issues; LOS/spotting being one of them.

Finally, get your feet wet with multiplayer, whether PBEM or TCP/IP games. IMO, this is when CM is at its most fun.

#4226019 - 02/06/16 02:24 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks Rambler. The Normandy one is the one I'm looking at, but that full package is $105. I will have to play the demo to be sure I want to spend it. Completely worth it if I love the game and play it alot. But an expensive mistake if I don't. As a wargamer and fan of previous titles I doubt I wouldn't like it. But as to how much I would play it... then again my son would think it's really cool.

I was thinking of getting the CD/DVD version, can't remember the last game i bought with a hard copy. Wait actually I do and it was Skyrim. But who cares.

I used to play a bit of hotseat and alot of PBEM with CMBO. You're right that it's fun.

What's the deal with LOS/spotting?


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#4226486 - 02/07/16 07:56 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Downloaded the demo for CMBN and played the Road to Berlin mission twice. It's much like it was before, with some obvious differences and improvements. But I enjoyed it enough to buy the full version big bundle thing, downloading now.


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#4226571 - 02/08/16 12:56 AM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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The issue with LOS/Spotting is how they designed and implemented their system. Expect to see instances where your troops won't be able to see a tank in the open 20 feet away, but it will of course see your troops and kill them all. BS stuff like that. I once ran tests on how long it took a tank to spot another tank. I put them about 100m apart in flat terrain with nothing obstructing their views, and it could take as long as 10 seconds for one to spot the other. Ummm, yeah, ok. Also, because LOS is tied to the action square system, you can't always use the LOS tool as Gospel truth. Where the tool says your guys can't see, they end up being able to, and where it looks like your troops should be able to see, they can't. WYSIWYG does not always apply to spotting. Just things to be aware of as you play.

Cool, I think you'll enjoy Normandy. Lots of content to keep you busy for quite awhile!

#4226782 - 02/08/16 03:44 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Yes, thanks. I had read a thread at the BF forums detailing some of the issue

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/121820-los-woes/

I've only played maybe 6 scenarios, and didn't notice any peculiarities, but 5 of those were in the demo which is version 1.1, or at least not the latest engine.

So I've played a few canned scenarios to get my feet wet and see what I recall, and what I don't or is new. In the previous titles I've played (CMBO and CMBB) the quick battle builder was my bread and butter. I love setting up combined arms meeting engagements, and being able to test drive different units. But I don't think I understand the purchasing, or it's changed.

I wanted to set something up like a company sized infantry unit with armor and support, using small or medium size. The purchasing screen says you must choose a formation first. But everything seems to be battalion size. In the older games it seemed I had far more choices here, even down to platoons. Am I missing a force-size filter? Because with the 1600 or so points you're given at 'small' you don't have alot of flexibility in what units you can choose from if you're restricted to battalions. I bet I'm just missing something obvious here.

Another thing I seem a bit hazy on, victory locations. Again, I'm sure it's right in front of me, but how do I know when I control one? The games I played before had a 'possession flag', and I don't see a hotkey combo for this. How do I know when a VL is 'touch' or needs to stay occupied? It would be obvious if I could see the control flags.

I seem to recall the earlier games had a relative strength meter that would show how well you doing based on observed casualties and destroyed vehicles. I'm sure I read somewhere it's in here, but I don't see it. Speaking of seeing, the UI seems needlessly small. Is there a mod to have it take up more screen/larger font? Especially for the pre-battle UI like briefings.

And lastly, any must have mods? Oh yeah, and does anyone have operations suggestions? There are only a handful that come with the game. I much prefer battles in open/rural/forested terrain. I am not a fan of urban combat, not just because it can be difficult, but also tedious in this game.

Edit: Found this UI mod. Gotta get me some of this!

http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah144/joakimwalldius/stuck_zpsm4a4btu3.png



Last edited by DBond; 02/08/16 07:11 PM.

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#4226982 - 02/09/16 12:48 AM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted By: DBond
So I've played a few canned scenarios to get my feet wet and see what I recall, and what I don't or is new. In the previous titles I've played (CMBO and CMBB) the quick battle builder was my bread and butter. I love setting up combined arms meeting engagements, and being able to test drive different units. But I don't think I understand the purchasing, or it's changed.

I wanted to set something up like a company sized infantry unit with armor and support, using small or medium size. The purchasing screen says you must choose a formation first. But everything seems to be battalion size. In the older games it seemed I had far more choices here, even down to platoons. Am I missing a force-size filter? Because with the 1600 or so points you're given at 'small' you don't have alot of flexibility in what units you can choose from if you're restricted to battalions. I bet I'm just missing something obvious here.


How QB force selection works is a little backwards than what you would think. You actually have to purchase the whole battalion, for example, and then whittle it down by deleting what you don't want. Here's a good video Ith did where he shows how to select forces via the force selection screen that may help you out:


Quote:
Another thing I seem a bit hazy on, victory locations. Again, I'm sure it's right in front of me, but how do I know when I control one? The games I played before had a 'possession flag', and I don't see a hotkey combo for this. How do I know when a VL is 'touch' or needs to stay occupied? It would be obvious if I could see the control flags.


There's really nothing to let you know if an occupy objective is totally yours. You have to make sure all enemy units are cleared from the zone in order to get the points. One stray dude you miss will cost you all of the points since the game sees it as contested. In regards to touch objectives, again, they don't look any different than an occupy, but the briefing will usually let you know there are touch objectives. When you touch the objective a little radio squawk will play and text will appear at the top of the screen informing you that the objective was reached. Also, the green zone will disappear from the map.

Quote:
I seem to recall the earlier games had a relative strength meter that would show how well you doing based on observed casualties and destroyed vehicles. I'm sure I read somewhere it's in here, but I don't see it. Speaking of seeing, the UI seems needlessly small. Is there a mod to have it take up more screen/larger font? Especially for the pre-battle UI like briefings.


There's no relative strength meter in CMx2 games, and there's no way to make the UI or text larger, unfortunately.

Quote:
And lastly, any must have mods? Oh yeah, and does anyone have operations suggestions? There are only a handful that come with the game. I much prefer battles in open/rural/forested terrain. I am not a fan of urban combat, not just because it can be difficult, but also tedious in this game.

Edit: Found this UI mod. Gotta get me some of this!

http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah144/joakimwalldius/stuck_zpsm4a4btu3.png


That UI mod is Juju's, and I highly recommend it. You can download it here: http://cmmodsiii.greenasjade.net/?p=741
I recommend mine as must haves biggrin http://cmmodsiii.greenasjade.net/?page_id=5#search/text=Rambler
Waclaw's HQS sound mod is also well done: http://cmmodsiii.greenasjade.net/?p=2668
Tank's a Lot's Normandy buildings are a must have: http://cmmodsiii.greenasjade.net/?p=2337 http://cmmodsiii.greenasjade.net/?p=2319
In all reality, spend some time poking around CMMODS III and see what catches your eye, since so much of what mods a person likes boils down to his personal tastes. http://cmmodsiii.greenasjade.net/?cat=4

#4227086 - 02/09/16 02:08 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Wow Rambler, great reply, thanks for taking the time, really appreciate it.

I will watch that video, because I suspected it must be something like you said, but I didn't figure it out.

I checked out your mods, those trees and foliage look fantastic by the way. I will have to try some.

I was reading more over at the BF forums and some members mentioned that version 3.0 of the engine had some negative effects on scenarios and especially campaigns that were made in a prior version of the game. Do you happen to know what this means, how they are affected?

Really enjoying CM again. Played a meeting engagement in the QB. Didn't know I could swap stuff out so had a Ami Glider Battalion with bazooka teams and medium MGs (1917s), on and off board mortars plus an armored car, a half track and a Priest. It all went very well. We had a huge advantage in casualties, like 90 to 20, but held neither VL, one of them because there was a flammenwerfer unit hiding nearby. Oh well, I'm learning. Had a go at making one of my MG ammo bearer teams in to a medic unit and they got some men back on their feet. What happens next? Are these revived men supposed to automatically rejoin their units or what am I supposed to do to get them back in the fight? Or are they out of the fight and just don't count as casualties?

I am really enjoying the fire support system. It was in there in the games I played before, but it's more refined and I like it. I've been playing Warrior mode, but I might bump it down one for shorter on-call times. A 7 minute wait time in a scenario that lasts for 15 or 20 minutes isn't very useful. By the time you get your spotter in to a position and shells raining down the mission is almost over. So I might 'cheat' a bit and go to Veteran.

But probably the single best improvement over CMBO/BB has to be relative spotting instead of 'Borg spotting'. This completely changes the game, and so much for the better.


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#4227499 - 02/10/16 04:45 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Casualties are not revived, they are cleared. If they are red (wounded) rather than brown (KIA), it does reduce their chance of counting as KIA rather than wounded at the end of the mission, but this serves no purpose other than role play / personal satisfaction since scoring counts WIA/KIA the same. However, clearing casaulties (whether wounded or dead) does acquire their ammo as well as heavy weapons like LMGs, bazookas, etc. if they are not damaged.

If you primarily like short QBs with company-sized forces, I recommend focusing on mortars for fire support, as you will get much better response times. If you do go with artillery, purchasing an FO team and using it to call in missions can also shorten times.

Any problems from 3.0 in missions / campaigns are minor and should be sorted out in upcoming patches.

Last edited by akdavis; 02/10/16 04:51 PM.

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#4227719 - 02/11/16 12:03 AM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks very much akdavis. That's good to know.

About artillery... Are there any factors that speed it up aside from the type of asset? For example will a Battalion CO call it in faster than a Platoon HQ?Is there a difference in response time, ammo count, number of tubes between on and off board assets?

Now as I said it's been a long time since I played CM, but I recall you could call artillery/mortars in on any part of the map. If it was unobserved the rounds could and often would fall anywhere, but you could still call it in. This is not possible in the CM2 engine? I would love to be able to bring down some interdiction fires on likely junctions and chokepoints beyond my field of view, and not just on the first turn. Can't my guys read a map? Am I missing it and it can be done?

I've been having fun with the QBs. But the AI isn't really up to it are they? On the defensive they aren't so bad, but when they have to move out they lack any co-ordination, and sometimes their force composition is whacky. I fought a reinforced company size ME and the American opponents had at least a dozen quad-.50 halftracks. A potent weapon to be sure, but not leading the charge on the objective.

Do QB battles feature AI plans?







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#4227765 - 02/11/16 05:00 AM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Yes, quick battles feature AI plans.

The general rule with artillery support is that, the more qualified the spotter, the faster the response time. In that regard, Battalion COs are not necessarily any faster than a platoon HQ. And that's a good thing, because a lot of the time it will be a platoon HQ calling in fire support.

The spotter must have line of sight to the area where you want the fire support to land. The only exceptions to this are (1) fire missions plotted before mission start and (2) firing on a designated Target Reference Point.

The AI is abysmal on offense, yes.

Oh and one other thing: just to try to unlearn whatever you remember from CMx1. CMx2 is an entirely differently engine with entirely different rules about things work.

#4227952 - 02/11/16 03:33 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Hey Luke, thanks kindly. What makes the spotter more qualified? A radio, binoculars and what else? Command rating?

After messing around with some canned scenarios and the QB I started my first campaign yesterday, Devil's Descent. It puts the player in command of a company of 82nd AB paratroopers on D-Day. Great fun. Small battles with plenty of fire and maneuver required and plenty of time to do it. Paratroopers are hard as nails. As most of you know, the campaigns have a branching structure, which I don't fully understand yet.

For example after my first battle at the farm I was offered the choice of waiting an hour or two to see if more reinforcements arrived, or attack the town now. I had no idea what it meant really. The first battle ended in a total victory, and the Germans had a single man left. Our casualties were low so I chose to attack now. I was thinking that waiting would also give the enemy a chance to recover somewhat and there was no guarantee I would actually get reinforcements I guess. I was thinking logically, but I don't know for sure what waiting would have meant. But the situation called for keeping going so that's what I chose. I would however like to know more about these sorts of choices and their potential implications and mechanics. And also how success or failure in a battle affects the next. If I score a total victory does that mean the next battle will be more difficult or less than if I took a beating? Is there a function that nerfs or boosts the enemy depending on how previous battles have gone?

Each battle we've fought in this campaign so far has been a total victory with no waiting option chosen. Our mortar crews used all their rounds in the first battle at the farm, but have not received a resupply. Is there a way to do so? Or do I just wait and it might happen eventually. Same with demo charges for breaching hedgerows. Running very low and I really need those!

Another example... after one battle I was asked if I wanted to leave a platoon in the town or take the whole company west. What to do? Obviously leaving the platoon behind would mean a weaker main force for the next battle. But would leaving the platoon mean an additional battle involving them in the town perhaps? Would leaving them there keep open lines of communication meaning maybe I'd now have mortar rounds and demo charges? Is there any resource to help me understand campaign mechanics?

This Devil's Descent campaign is a gem, and just my cuppa. I just love being given an objective and a map and trying to solve the tactical puzzle. I'm sure it's what appeals to many CM'ers. Combat Mission continuously asks questions of the player. How do I solve it? Where are my avenues of approach. How strong will be my forces, where and how will I divide them? How will I commit them? How will I support them? For me the 'tactical problem' is at least as fun as the actual fighting itself.


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#4228102 - 02/11/16 09:31 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted By: DBond
Hey Luke, thanks kindly. What makes the spotter more qualified? A radio, binoculars and what else? Command rating?


The first and most important thing affecting qualification is whether or not the spotter is a forward observer. If this is the case, then the time from the initial call for support to FFE will in general be shorter than with other spotters. All units which can call in fire support are assumed to have a radio/field telephone of some sort.

Other things you want to consider for your spotter:

-Terrain. Not only does the spotter need a clear line-of-sight to the target, but he also needs to be able to see the surrounding terrain. The reason for this is that he needs to be able to see where errant shots from the mortar tube / artillery battery are landing. Without this sort of line of sight, your fire support asset will likely never be properly guided onto the target.

-Suppression. If your spotter is taking enemy fire, then he won't be able to properly call in the mission. So, keep him in terrain that conceals his appearance.

#4229331 - 02/15/16 02:20 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks Luke.

I've finished the Devil's Descent campaign and really enjoyed it. Company sized formations are my favorite. And I find I split my squads much more in CMBN than I did in previous titles. That results in more than double the number of units to control, so I can only imagine what it will be like when I play some large scenarios.

I also finished the Task Force Raff campaign. Another fun one where the player takes control of two separate forces, a paratroop company and an ad-hoc task force attempting to link up with the paratroopers from the beachhead culminating in a final battle with both forces fighting on the same map. This one was on the easy side, but is intended to be a training campaign.

I've started two more -- Road to Montebourg and Panzer Marsch, but at this rate I'm going to run out of campaigns to play before too long!

As much as I am loving the game, there are a few things I miss from the earlier games. One is the old hunt command. I don't know if it was possible in CMBO, but in CMBB I recall you could order a hunt, with a reverse at the end so you could perform shoot and scoots. Now hunt is like move to contact. How do you guys conduct a shoot and scoot? Just use move or quick and then reverse? It's how I've been doing it.

I also seem to remember that you could aim a pop smoke order to grunts. Now it's tied to facing, which is needlessly limiting. Tactical use of smoke is so important in this game and I'd like more control over where I can place it.

Campaigns (operations) in CMBB had plenty of shortcomings, but I find I miss the 'rolling map' and the dynamic lines. In CMBB you fought operations over one big continuous map. At the end of each battle phase, the front lines (and following set up zones) were redone based on what you captured and where your units ended the battle.

The current system is a series of related, but separate battles that are fought to conclusion. I like this system because it allows the author more of a free hand in telling the 'story' of the campaign. But I sure wish there were an auto-campaign generator that featured huge maps with 'sticky' end-states.

And I REALLY miss the combined arms setting in the QB. The current choices allow too much freedom for the AI picker to conjure up some super whacky forces. And if I were to pick the forces for the AI opponent I'd know what they have and that's no good. BF made a fantastic game here, but removing combined arms is puzzling. Or at least let me set percentage thresholds for unit types.


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#4229435 - 02/15/16 06:18 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  

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This how shoot-n-Scoot looks like in CMx2 games.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/81192-shoot-n-scoot/

Obviously it's applicable to WWII combat smile

#4229459 - 02/15/16 07:06 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks, and essentially that's what I've been doing, but it's still not as good (for me) as the old system. If the current hunt didn't cancel all subsequent move orders upon sighting the enemy I wouldn't have any issues. It works, but for me it's less than ideal.


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#4230610 - 02/18/16 03:12 PM Re: Combat Mission [Re: DBond]  
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I've started several campaigns over the past week or so, and I'm finding this Paper Tiger guy is a dastardly dude. The man is handing me losses. In game scoring terms not so bad, minor defeats and draws. But that doesn't tell the story as my infantry platoons are suffering high losses.

In the Road to Montebourg campaign you start with an infantry company attack across a huge expanse of open ground against a couple of wooden pillboxes, a minefield and some landsers with spandaus nestled in bocage. At first I was like oh yeah, this is going to be ugly. But suppressive fire in this game works and I got a major victory with surprisingly light losses. The next mission is an attack on a town on a hill. There is bocage everywhere and a hidden ATG placed in an absolutely diabolical position. Hats off to that bastage Paper Tiger for that one. I had a three-pronged attack plan, with a platoon with attached engineers performing a wide flanking maneuver blowing hedgerow after hedgerow to hit them in the flank. It was really beautiful, until I got in to the town and it all went to hell. The German company CO was a maniac with a MP40 and my infantry losses mounted and resulted in a minor defeat. Watching such a well planned and executed attack devolve into a fiasco at the final hurdle was rather disheartening.

In the Scottish Corridor campaign I lost the very first battle. Lousy weather, muddy ground and determined SS nutjobs with an uncanny ability to drop artillery on my platoons just when I reckoned it was safe to move. You're given a reinforced company of green Scots who get rattled at the sound of their own guns firing along with a couple of Churchills fairly restricted to a single road lest you bog 'em. My infantry suffered, and then some.

Perhaps if I built large wooden badgers.



No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
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