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#4223885 - 02/01/16 12:30 AM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: WingsOfHonesty]  
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Skoop Offline
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I've heard of people suspect of this hack for months now. It seems the competitive nature of the dogfight theme going on at the WOL server is sort of fueling it indirectly. Some will do anything to have an edge I guess. I just fly other servers and avoid WOL. Some times the WOL is the only thing populated, so when I do go there, I go 190 with strict 1 pass BNZ then evade. Even with hack icons on, it's nearly impossible for them to catch you when your diving in with that kind of speed.

I would like this fixed though, such a great sim, hate to see it spoiled with hacks.

The SP is improving with Pat Wilson's work BTW.

#4223981 - 02/01/16 07:37 AM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: WingsOfHonesty]  
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This sim is doomed. First russian BIAS to hell and back and now you can even cheat in the pile of programming shaite.
Official feedback on the offi forums by Jason Williams on BIAS (i repost cause its so funny and here they cant delete every bit of truth):
" Posted Yesterday, 19:40

There is no purposeful bias in our products. Each plane is researched and built according to our sources from different places including military test data etc. Any claims on this forum of such conspiracy to "balance" the sim will be deleted. We have the most detailed physics environment ever attempted in a WWII sim product and such complexities are impossible to get completely correct on a PC. Chances are through the lens of history, German planes might not have been as amazing as some claim and Soviet and Allied planes may not have been as bad as some claim. It's impossible to know for sure because the war is long over. But overall in BOS and BOM the German planes are better performers than Soviet planes as history remembers. You can nit pick about tiny details forever, but there is ZERO attempt to make them even. Any attempt to say otherwise is total nonsense.

Our product is not a casual game like WT, our flight dynamics are light years beyond WT. Just because we have presented certain parts of the product in a different way than previous "sims" takes nothing away from the physics and systems modelling.

Jason"

rofl and this in a sim where you get caught in levelspeed in either 109 and FW190 by russian airplanes, where the FW 190 climbs worse than a YAK-1 and rolls slower than y LA-5, Heck you even get outdived by russian airplanes. The sim in wich EVERY SINGLE loadingscreen shows a burning german planes. A sim in wich you need like 20 mineshells to down a russian woodcrate and most of the time even after 20 hits the thing just flies very well. A sim in wich all russina aircraft just DUMP THEIR Fin flaps in a dogfight to outturn you in the blink of an eye.... So LOL. Unbelievable! And they dare to say there is no BIAS. ROOOFLFCKNLOL

OH and i got to add this: The sim in wich you cant see shaite thru the glass of the FW190 as soon as you get above 3k height since the glass just turns milkglass.
Oh and did i mention that you can see better thru the oiled up by enginedamage windshield of a MIG-3 than thru a factory new FW190 windshield? This sim asks so hard for truth. And since the official forums squelch every word of criticism this is my place to go now.

Last edited by The_Winger; 02/01/16 07:45 AM.
#4223988 - 02/01/16 08:28 AM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: The_Winger]  
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LukeFF Offline
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Originally Posted By: The_Winger
This sim is doomed...


Dude, you really need to let it go already. And, as I've already told you once, move on if you don't like the way the game has modeled things.

#4223989 - 02/01/16 08:47 AM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: WingsOfHonesty]  
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The_Winger Offline
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I am practically gone already. Everytime i try to fly the game i stop soon after.
Be it cause i got outdived and afterward outrolled/turned by a LA5 in my FW or i get prophang snipeshot by nondispersionguns flaphangers. Even if only a little hole is in a german plane it almost instantly looses the ability to fly at all. Just like they guy in this vid here says. His words could be my words. He really speaks off my soul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oobd2_ko4Co

#4224141 - 02/01/16 06:41 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: The_Winger]  
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LukeFF Offline
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Originally Posted By: The_Winger
I am practically gone already.


Good, then go the rest of the way.

#4224214 - 02/01/16 08:42 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: LukeFF]  
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robtek Offline
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Originally Posted By: LukeFF
Originally Posted By: The_Winger
I am practically gone already.


Good, then go the rest of the way.


You might keep the thought police in the IL2 forum, it has found a home there.

#4224217 - 02/01/16 08:46 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: WingsOfHonesty]  
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CyBerkut Offline
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Both supporters and detractors can post here.

There's more than one way to reduce aggravation in one's life.

- One can stop playing a game that they consider to be seriously messed up

- One can ignore postings from someone that they find aggravating

#4224236 - 02/01/16 09:11 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: WingsOfHonesty]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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The problem is there are other factors that they don't bother to simulate in games that would alter the playing field greatly.

Sims tend not to model reliability much. You tend not to deal with logistics issues...when was the last time you took off alone with a dozen other planes sitting on the tarmac waiting for spares? Fuel distillation issues, ammo reliability, getting stuck in a rut in the ground and bending the gear getting it out...they just skip this stuff.

On paper, the Germans should've won WWII with their jets and cannons and superior pilot experience. That they lost is not because the planes sucked or the pilots were incapable, but because of things sims do NOT simulate because A) they're not what a pilot would deal with and B) they introduce no enjoyment for the player if they did. Things like intel and pilot capabilities are touched on, but never as much as they counted in the real war.

So to make it "balanced" when Axis plane A faces off against Allied plane B is indeed wrong, but it can feel wrong when you have 5 of A vs 5 of B and A wins every time...even though if that situation occurred in the real war (pilots of roughly equal abilities and perfectly working planes with great intel) you can bet they probably WOULD have won every time.

This is where scripted missions/campaigns have value, because you can tailor the circumstances to be more realistic than in some random FFA encounter on a server.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4224332 - 02/02/16 05:20 AM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: LukeFF]  
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DrZebra Offline
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Could we please get back to things that matter instead of silly bickering?

Originally Posted By: LukeFF

Except that, in the case of BoS, confirmed methods of cheating have been fixed, once they have been reported to the team.


So, has icons on/simple fm switched on settings exploit been fixed yes or no? Luke?


or are they definatly working on it?

Last edited by DrZebra; 02/02/16 05:22 AM.
#4224342 - 02/02/16 06:17 AM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: WingsOfHonesty]  
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LizLemon Offline
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"Flight-simmers love as many graphics options as possible." - Jason, November 2012
#4224360 - 02/02/16 09:55 AM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: LukeFF]  
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The_Winger Offline
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I dont really care what you write. Noone can censor my thoughts here. So leave me alone.
I tell what i think is important to people potentially sinking money in this mess.

EDIT: I surely mean mr thoughtpolice. Not you Zebra:)

Last edited by The_Winger; 02/13/16 09:43 AM.
#4224371 - 02/02/16 11:31 AM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: LizLemon]  
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DrZebra Offline
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Originally Posted By: LizLemon


Do you mean this?

Originally Posted By: Jason

There has never been a cheat in ROF or BOS that we are aware of. If there was we would take steps to stop it.



And I agree, cheating is for losers.



Time to close this one. No need to discuss something that is not happening.



Jason



To be fair, the thread-closing post by Jason is from 2014.. I believe the hard evidence may have not been submitted to the devs at that time... but it has been now and giving an actual reply to that today would probably be reasonable. There is no "Doom" in some skriptkiddies, but it certainly hurts player fun as well as buisness so were technically all on the same side..

And with the discussion standind as it is, it would be wise to actually enlarge and specify statements such as:

Originally Posted By: LukeFF

Except that, in the case of BoS, confirmed methods of cheating have been fixed, once they have been reported to the team.


to the extent of what has been adressed so far... and if that statement does entail the actual hard-evidence backed hexeditor setting manipulation exploit.

WHY would that be important? Because there is feeling of mistrust ("only cover up, no issue adressing") spreading through the comunity which is basically toxic and bad for playing fun as well as buisness and accusation-flamewars hardly ever do anything good. So take a clear, coherent stance and openly say what is going on, even if it is "that issue is not widespread/important enough to throw resources at" would only be much more beneficial to the game. Both playersided and buisnesswise.

Last edited by DrZebra; 02/02/16 11:48 AM.
#4224424 - 02/02/16 03:38 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: WingsOfHonesty]  
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Mudcat Offline
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I wouldn't ever expect an official statement, plenty of companies have a policy of never acknowledging these things, or if they do, at least not till they are fixed.

No discussion of exploits period, because even discussing it would be acknowledgement.

I'm not sure if this is how they operate or not. Just saying I know from first hand experience there are companies that operate this way. This doesn't mean internally that they are clueless about it or that they aren't trying to fix it.

I can't imagine that they wouldn't know about it by now. But I doubt you would get official acknowledgement, although I would certainly be happy to be proved wrong in this regard.

#4224466 - 02/02/16 05:05 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: WingsOfHonesty]  
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Dakpilot Offline
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What other 'out in the open' discussion would one expect from any company other than what was said by Jason about one week ago?

"If there is any kind of technical cheat that is discovered report it to us and we'll look into it."

If you have proof report it, surely that is what they have asked for...did the OP report it?

Cheers Dakpilot

#4224489 - 02/02/16 05:44 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: DrZebra]  
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LizLemon Offline
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I meant my post in that thread, which I guess probably doesn't show the attached screens unless you are logged in.

To quote myself;

"2 is already very doable.

Its also very easy to make everything in the game a wireframe, allowing you certain advantages in visibility. There are also a few other, lets say "fun", things you can do with widely available tools. Not that I've done any of this online, but I definitely know its possible. As far as I can tell there is no anti-cheat of any sort.

These are older screenshots but this still works."

And the two pics I attached in that post


"Flight-simmers love as many graphics options as possible." - Jason, November 2012
#4224629 - 02/02/16 09:36 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: Dakpilot]  
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DrZebra Offline
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steppe
Originally Posted By: Dakpilot
What other 'out in the open' discussion would one expect from any company other than what was said by Jason about one week ago?

"If there is any kind of technical cheat that is discovered report it to us and we'll look into it."

If you have proof report it, surely that is what they have asked for...did the OP report it?

Cheers Dakpilot


Hi dak,
did you read the OP here? It was a vid showing the hexeditor options cheat beeing used on the Wings of Liberty server and it was most likely posted here, BECAUSE the reporting of said cheat in private via mail a while ago apparently did not yield any satisfactory response from the devs.

And the "are they just sitting it out and doint nothing" feeling in the online squadrons hurts gameplay as well as buisness. Hence even a nonspecific public "Were working on it" would be wiser then the current information politics which kinda lead to wild-running speculations. All longterm players know the cheat exists, but noone knows if it is beeing worked on.. that is something unhelpful.

#4224659 - 02/02/16 10:55 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: DrZebra]  
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Dakpilot Offline
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Originally Posted By: DrZebra
Originally Posted By: Dakpilot
What other 'out in the open' discussion would one expect from any company other than what was said by Jason about one week ago?

"If there is any kind of technical cheat that is discovered report it to us and we'll look into it."

If you have proof report it, surely that is what they have asked for...did the OP report it?

Cheers Dakpilot


Hi dak,
did you read the OP here? It was a vid showing the hexeditor options cheat beeing used on the Wings of Liberty server and it was most likely posted here, BECAUSE the reporting of said cheat in private via mail a while ago apparently did not yield any satisfactory response from the devs.

And the "are they just sitting it out and doint nothing" feeling in the online squadrons hurts gameplay as well as buisness. Hence even a nonspecific public "Were working on it" would be wiser then the current information politics which kinda lead to wild-running speculations. All longterm players know the cheat exists, but noone knows if it is beeing worked on.. that is something unhelpful.


Well maybe you are right, and I am just old fashioned, but I feel the better way is with decent and continuing dialogue through the correct channels

Cheers Dakpilot

#4224850 - 02/03/16 02:49 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: Dakpilot]  
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robtek Offline
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Of course a decent and continuing dialogue through the correct channels is the better way, but as I understood this the OP was talking to a wall there.
It always takes at least 2 for a dialogue.

#4224866 - 02/03/16 03:13 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: robtek]  
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Dakpilot Offline
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Originally Posted By: robtek
Of course a decent and continuing dialogue through the correct channels is the better way, but as I understood this the OP was talking to a wall there.
It always takes at least 2 for a dialogue.


Maybe, but that does seem to be an assumption, I think Jason's request for info on cheating was before (a short time) the OP and today's request

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/20876-joint-voluntary-invisible-planes-testing-initiative/

(part of a longer term work) seems to show a willingness and intent to fix issues

Cheers Dakpilot

#4225059 - 02/03/16 09:08 PM Re: Wings of Honesty [Re: LukeFF]  
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Originally Posted By: LukeFF
Originally Posted By: 80hd
Sadly, this is how these things seem to go in *every* flight sim online...

Cheating is suspected... it's confirmed beyond the shadow of a doubt... and then the following happens:


  • Problem/exploit is reported to the devs/community
  • Devs immediately assault the whistleblower
  • Community sycophants assault the whistleblower
  • Discussion of the problem is actively suppressed (hence why we must come here to discuss - btw, thanks SimHQ!)
  • Problem is never officially addressed, because that will surely make it go away
  • Everyone just hopes the cheaters get bored and decide to go fail at life elsewhere


I dunno what it is about flight sim communities... they are strange, strange places... MMOs take this stuff seriously, because it's absolutely a blight on the integrity of their commodity... heck, even ARK (which has a server model like IL2) PAYS hackers for reporting exploits.


Except that, in the case of BoS, confirmed methods of cheating have been fixed, once they have been reported to the team.


I should have clarified that my experiences have not been with BoS, or that Dev team, but several other games where cheating is not rampant by any means, but absolutely present in one form or other.

In several cases, long ago, I tried to help expose some of these things to the light and was basically demonized even though I was simply trying to do what is right... I absolutely abhor cheating, bias (not talking about ZOMG RUSSIAN BIAS b/s, I mean lack of objectivity), and illogical assumption. A cursory glance at my statistics has ALWAYS shown that I most assuredly do not cheat in flight sims hahahahaha...

The reason this thing struck me was due to the fact that these are simple bit-flips that are painfully easy to pull off with freely available software and very little instruction. This is the EXACT same thing I was threatened to be banned from a flight sim I will not name (Aces High) for posting about. In THAT case, all I even said was that if the same client that included the code to enable a lead indicator, continuous computed impact point reticle, etc in the training arena was also used in the main arena that his was a VERY BAD THING. My business IP was banned from even loading the forum page immediately after I posted the suggestion to separate the two clients.

Literally, instead of fixing the problem, the answer is to ban a paying customer. It's as myopic as it is arrogant.

In this case, watching the video, it's the exact same thing. If it exists in the engine, it can most assuredly be turned on by force with very little trouble.

I'm not saying the end-state solution is "simple", as I am of course not privy to either the source code or the resources available to the dev team to implement the fix, but the premise is indeed uncomplicated:

If you have two game modes, one of which includes "assistance" (LCGS, CCIP, Icons, Range to Target, sometimes even things like unlimited fuel or depending upon the engine even physics dependent things such as modeled weights, drag, etc) and another mode where all of these things are absent, you MUST completely separate the code for those two game modes.

This can be done several ways I am sure, but certainly the following are options in the case of IL-2:

1. You launch the initial game, and then you launch a specific sub-set of that engine upon selection of a MP gametype... i.e., if you connect to a "Normal" server, you launch with that code (the current IL-2 code). If you connect to a realistic server, you get that set. Modularity here allows for things like the use of icons, but not even having the required code for LCGS and CCIP running or available within the engine itself. Literally it's absent from the code. You are unable to circumvent this by spoofing the "Normal" code as expert settings based on a number of factors (it's essentially a different game, and the connection would simply fail.)

2. Easier, more restrictive, sledgehammer approach... you package two client binaries and two dserver binaries with the application. IL2_N.exe only connects to a DserverN.exe instance, and IL2_E.exe only connects to a DserverE.exe instance. These could be selected from the launcher directly. In fact, It could be IL2.exe and IL2_XMP.exe, and you basically launch one to go to SP or Normal MP, and another to go to Expert Multiplayer Only.

Now, can someone still hack this? Certainly... but now you've upped the price of admission to cheat from simply downloading a program and reading a paragraph on the concept to requiring some serious programming skills, not to mention the end result is bound to be janky and not the very nice and neat built-in Normal settings that the original RoF dev who created them never intended to be used against earnest expert players.

You don't have to personally get food poisoning from Taco Bell to avoid Taco Bell.

Anyway, I'm back flying IL-2 after like a 9 month hiatus... I'm not the guy that's going to avoid the game because of this, but I also have the benefit of wingmen who are breathtakingly better at the game than I am... like a retarded guppy in a school of allied piranha, I am insulated enough from these asshats that I won't as keenly feel the barb.

On the other hand, the guy who ups a solo He-111, cleverly devises a surreptitious route to target, and gets bounced regardless because [Possible player name deleted] the coolguy pilot is running Fan Song radar and vectors in on him from 50k away... that dude ain't gonna want to play anymore real quick.

TL;DR - I didn't mean to imply that the IL-2 team didn't care or wasn't doing anything about this at all... I just really, really, really hate cheaters... but the one thing that I detest more than a dishonest player is the vilification of whistle-blowers and the blamers of victims.

wave

Last edited by CyBerkut; 02/05/16 01:23 AM. Reason: Possible player name deleted
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