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#4223195 - 01/29/16 11:39 PM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Patrocles]  
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He probably wasn't selected for his particular wits; the bosses claims are probably just flattery (people who think that they are undeservedly lucky tend to ask fewer critical questions). If the purpose of the test was to find out if the average Joe would fall for these machines, I guess it was a success beyond the designers' expectations. duh

That said, beyond mere empathy (as misguided as it may be in this particular case) there's still the fundamental ethical question whether self-aware AIs shouldn't also be granted citizens' rights, assuming that their behavior is responsible and their control logic neither deterministic nor random. Science fiction novellas and films like the Blade Runner, or the killing of HAL in 2001, have already answered the question;. although, typically, on the empathy level (again!) - it simply feels wrong to treat them as slaves and as mere machines.
I think that the writer/director Alex Garland was very analytical of the audience in setting up the empathy trap because that's what we humans do: We empathize with entirely alien minds that may actually have very little in common with us ... if only these aliens are suitably talented at reading our emotions and manipulating them with their subconscious, non-verbal communications. We humans have a much wider input interface than just speech, after all, but we are rarely aware of it. And that is a fundamental weakness when dealing with a conscious entity which isn't guided by the same biological necessities like we are, or who haven't been formed by similar evolutionary pressure.

We're better at reading animals' minds than we can hope to guess the unspoken motivation of a sentient machine.

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#4223252 - 01/30/16 03:32 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: JimK]  
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Originally Posted By: JimK
Cool, bought this movie off Itunes some time back. Watched it 4 times now. The rich boss
got what he had coming. Just a drunk super brain with some serious mental issues. He had
a hard time living with himself. By himself.


Throw in a little god complex... hard to believe it's Poe. He looks and sounds completely different.

Oh come on, of course that young geeky nerd is going to fall for "her", she's a manipulator, a typical women. biggrin

#4223262 - 01/30/16 04:19 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted By: Ssnake
He probably wasn't selected for his particular wits; the bosses claims are probably just flattery (people who think that they are undeservedly lucky tend to ask fewer critical questions). If the purpose of the test was to find out if the average Joe would fall for these machines, I guess it was a success beyond the designers' expectations. duh


Well, it's the fact that he underestimated Caleb which ultimately got himself killed.


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#4223263 - 01/30/16 04:22 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Patrocles]  
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That said, beyond mere empathy (as misguided as it may be in this particular case) there's still the fundamental ethical question whether self-aware AIs shouldn't also be granted citizens' rights, assuming that their behavior is responsible and their control logic neither deterministic nor random.

If the way we treat highly intelligent animals like dolphins and apes is any indication you shouldn't worry too much about AI with a conscience given any rights. In any event recreating something so highly sophisticated and complex as self-awareness may be beyond our capacity. If we ever come close to that then there should be firm laws of ethics in place preventing any scientist from creating such a Frankenstein creature.

#4223265 - 01/30/16 04:24 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted By: frinik22
She looks a little dark for a Swede?
Just looked it up and her ancestry is entirely Swedish and Finnish. Maybe she just has a George Hamilton tan going on? LOL


She may be slightly tanned but her complexion is clearly nothing like the common Swede or Finn.

Last edited by Vertigo1; 01/30/16 08:19 PM.

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#4223607 - 01/31/16 10:14 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Patrocles]  
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Not all of us are blonde and blue eyed wink
"Common" applies to most but not all.

#4223639 - 01/31/16 01:34 PM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Patrocles]  
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Yup. It would be like saying all Italians have dark hair, dark eyes and olive skin.


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#4223643 - 01/31/16 01:40 PM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Yup. It would be like saying all Italians have dark hair, dark eyes and olive skin.



*Looks at himself*

Oh-uuuh.
Damn.

wink


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#4223848 - 01/31/16 10:23 PM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: frinik22]  
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Originally Posted By: frinik22
That said, beyond mere empathy (as misguided as it may be in this particular case) there's still the fundamental ethical question whether self-aware AIs shouldn't also be granted citizens' rights, assuming that their behavior is responsible and their control logic neither deterministic nor random.



My suggestion is not to grant rights to individuals who are merely self aware- that's any psychopath. Self awareness should not be in itself a reason for to empathize with them- that is a 'weakness' of people who can feel empathy for those who cannot, that will always turn out bad for the empathy normal individuals to have empathy for individuals who can't reciprocate. The respect will be all one sided or all one way. If a person is self aware but themselves do not possess the circuits to process empathy, they will necessarily view everything and everyone else in instrumental terms- that is to say, how can they consume what they need from others. Without empathy, they cannot see others as anything more than resources to exploit. They are parasitic. They might learn to mimic the empathy response to pass muster as being like the rest of the normal population, but this is merely a shallow affect, this is a survival act only.

#4223866 - 01/31/16 11:17 PM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Patrocles]  
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Since no such AI exists yet (and, for the foreseeable future, won't) the debate is largely academical in nature. It remains dubious if a true, self-aware artificial intelligence would actually be malevolent, given that it totally depends on the cooperation of humans to maintain the rather fragile infrastructure that it needs to exist.
Also, the question is why an AI should actually aspire a position of power in the first place. We humans are predisposed towards massively overestimating out own abilities and chances in pretty much any situation (and the delusion of competence is bigger, the less objective reason we may have for it because we don't even know what we don't know). A purely rational analysis of its own situation might actually turn an AI to assume a nihilistic attitude towards pretty much anything. Heck, we might have to implement a similar "reality distortion" filter to get the AI to function "normally", that is, to respond to us in a constructive way. If however an AI suffers from the same biases (by necessity than we humans do, where's the comparative benefit?

I remain somewhat skeptical if an actual, purpose-independent AI will ever be invented.

#4223868 - 01/31/16 11:32 PM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Patrocles]  
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The debate already exists- what should be done with psychopaths. A person who has not committed a crime, but nevertheless has been given a psychopathic diagnosis.

What are they? At the high end of the Hare checklist, they are basically 'human machines'- human intellect and self awareness, but without conscience.

So imagine playing a videogame- the only reason why they don't confront or destroy another character is because they've made the rational assessment that another character is too strong, there is no use fighting a battle they cannot win. On the other hand, like in a game of Grand Theft Auto, there is no reason not to harm an easy target like a little old lady and take their car or their money, for example. Everything is rational in that respect.

If psychopaths do one thing is to learn to mimic human behavior by watching what humans do. For example, a psychopath walking down the street sees a family hit by a bus. The psychopath will watch others to see how they react (since they genuinely do not comprehend empathy), then go home and practice what they saw.

A way to explain it is this- when someone sees another person kicked in the testicles and other wince because they understand what that feels like, psychopath does not- they don't understand this 'invisible connection' between individuals which do that.

Imagine it- if you had self awareness but no conscience- it would have to be nothing like what society expects from individuals. Everything must necessarily be calculated by pros and cons; they can be programmed to understand rules, but in order to be self aware, they would have to be aware that some rules interfere for example with their own personal enrichment or survival. Psychopaths will even explain that they think things like empathy for others is a lie that everyone else pretends to feel and that everyone they see is faking it- they genuinely cannot comprehend it, so from their point of view, it's nothing more than a societal construct that they see holding them back (if they are the lucid, rational kind).


#4223899 - 02/01/16 01:15 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Patrocles]  
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And to think the movie premise, lets an AI out, what will happen to it when it does not
an encounter. Same as back in the lab ?

Good reasoning Mechanus.


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#4223923 - 02/01/16 02:51 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Patrocles]  
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Kind of like the 'psychopathic robot' in so many movies- for example like in 2001, Alien or Blade Runner in science fiction. That's where it comes from.

Something which is self aware but lacks empathy for others will be self serving and supremely entitled by default. Assisting or helping others is purely for tactical reasons to get what they want. Not breaking rules for the same reason- merely a calculation for the time being of what is harmful to the machine or not. But given the chance and having weighed the risks, without a conscience, there is little to hold back something like that if it's likely they've assessed they can get away with it.

Interview after interview with psychopaths reveal that sort of narcissism- they view themselves at the center of the universe (again, lacking empathy or conscience means they have an inability to place themselves in the shoes of anyone else). They view others as lower down on the food chain, and everything else exists as a potential meal for them. They don't view themselves as 'psychopathic', as they can't comprehend what it means to be different than what they are. Describing empathy to someone incapable of understanding it would be like describing colors to someone born color-blind; they can't see it and can't comprehend anything else.

That's why psychopaths are so ice cold and matter of fact when they recount their crimes, it's strictly a thought process formed differently that is completely alien from the rest of the population (studies on them can be quite fascinating in and of themselves- for example, when shown an image of something disturbing, all areas of the image, whether the disturbing central content or peripheral areas of the image with with nothing else going on, psychopaths look at it all the same neutrally).

That in itself seems to be an excellent analogy with self aware AI but without the higher mammalian brain functions that process empathy. Psychopaths more compared to lower order vertebrates like fish, reptiles and amphibians (hence the reptilian brain refers to basic impulses like eating, mating, fighting and nothing else). They view other life forms as either something to avoid, consume or ignore because it can't be consumed. That's about it.


#4223939 - 02/01/16 03:40 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Patrocles]  
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I think you guys are locking on the Psychopath angle to hard and missing the larger picture. Manipulative, self-preservation, and vengeance by both silicon life forms. Ok, I don't know why I didn't just call them androids. They were no different than Star Treks Data.

#4223952 - 02/01/16 04:24 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Patrocles]  
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I think that's what it is by default.

A sense of self awareness and self preservation. Check. Lacking empathy- ok, that's what psychopaths are. Everything is a calculation which gratifies or enriches the self, it has to be. They size up everyone around then in terms of "what does this benefit me". How could it be any other way?

So imagine your AI machine, "Ted" encounters a human, "Fred". It's come to Ted's attention that Fred has a sum of money on him, like most adult humans- in his wallet or something. Ted, lacking a conscience, but has a normal intellect and a sense of self, would do what this information? He would calculate whether it would be a positive or negative to take or con the money out of Fred, which would help Ted. Money is a logical, rational benefit, so this thinking is purely rational process without empathy (how it may hurt Fred). That's what all interaction would look like to a self interested, self aware entity without empathy or conscience. That is the model of reasoning that would develop. Simply a decision tree or flow chart without anything else mediating or regulating those thoughts such as a conscience.

So Ted may not do anything if Ted calculates the risks are too great. And that is what most psychopaths in the general population do- without a sense of inhibition that other people have, they calculate, they scheme, they size everything up, and they tend to do things without people knowing about it until they slip up somewhere. And the reaction is so often the same- "would never have suspected that person, so outwardly normal," and so on.

#4223957 - 02/01/16 04:59 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Attackmack]  
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Originally Posted By: Attackmack
Not all of us are blonde and blue eyed wink
"Common" applies to most but not all.


Can you name any other internationally known Swedes who do not fit the genetic stereotype?


"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

“One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.” -Milton Friedman

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#4223958 - 02/01/16 05:00 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Yup. It would be like saying all Italians have dark hair, dark eyes and olive skin.


I'm pretty sure it's the Sicilians who are like that. I'm not positive though.


"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

“One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.” -Milton Friedman

Quem Deus vult perdere, prius dementat
#4223963 - 02/01/16 05:21 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Vertigo1]  
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Originally Posted By: Vertigo1
Originally Posted By: Attackmack
Not all of us are blonde and blue eyed wink
"Common" applies to most but not all.


Can you name any other internationally known Swedes who do not fit the genetic stereotype?


Alfred Nobel
Maud Adams
Malin kerman
Stellan Skarsgrd
Ingmar Bergman
Noomi Rapace


me, but I'm not internationally known. biggrin

#4223974 - 02/01/16 06:44 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Falstar]  
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Originally Posted By: Falstar
Originally Posted By: Vertigo1
Originally Posted By: Attackmack
Not all of us are blonde and blue eyed wink
"Common" applies to most but not all.


Can you name any other internationally known Swedes who do not fit the genetic stereotype?


Alfred Nobel
Maud Adams
Malin kerman
Stellan Skarsgrd
Ingmar Bergman
Noomi Rapace


me, but I'm not internationally known. biggrin


hmm.. I'll have to disagree with you about Stellan Skarsgard and Malin Akerman.


"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

“One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.” -Milton Friedman

Quem Deus vult perdere, prius dementat
#4223984 - 02/01/16 07:51 AM Re: Ex Machina (film) [Re: Mechanus]  
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Originally Posted By: Mechanus
The debate already exists- what should be done with psychopaths.

So far, our justice system is based on what we do, not what some test says that we are, and I think that changing that paradigm would do more harm than good.
It's like having a Voight-Kampff test for everybody, then rounding up everyone who fails and to put them into detention even if they haven't done anything wrong. While we're at it, why not round up sociopaths as well, and those with a pedophile predisposition (even though they never actually touched a kid), or people who register with a low self-control threshold? Next stop, religious people.

What we are may play a role in the sanctions that we get for what we do, but I think it's a good principle to lock up people only if they actually commit a felony, not just because there's an above average likelihood that, one day, they might.

There we go, thread derailed.

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