WTF are you even talking about now.

Agree with it, or not... it appears his point was:

"What you say is irrelevant when you say it all the time, whether it's true or not."

Like when ATC repeats to a pilot that he should change course and altitude to avoid collision with other aircraft... the more ATC repeats it the more irrelevant it becomes... lol

Well... if ATC repeats it long enough, one way or another the information will become irrelevant.

Exactly. If you've said it a dozen times, what exactly do you expect will happen when you say it 100 times?

Isn't there some adage about insanity defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

I also laugh at the idea that these people think they are doing some great public service by pointing it out again and again to people who don't care, already know, or already know and don't care. Certainly everyone here falls into one of those three categories, so what's the point?




The Jedi Master

Sounds like it was ignored the first time but here you can't ignore the 100th. Perhaps the squeaky wheel does get the grease?

No. It wasn't ignored.

Not getting your way =! ignored.



The Jedi Master

And yet, when the MiG-21Bis was first introduced, it had unrealistic nose wheel steering. Comments from the community got that changed. When the MiG-21Bis had unrealistic engine behavior making it impossible to overspeed, outcry from the community got that changed. So yes, it's a case of, if you complain enough, something may change.

And let's be clear, LN aren't angels here. They've been leading the community on and on, and on... and on... and on. So yeah, a little complaining is catharsis, and should be taken in stride.

Those are good examples of an attentive DCS community facilitating solid improvements to a DCS module....but it's also entirely out of context in this situation. You are describing a situation in which complaints from the community leads to corrections/improvements in a product that customers paid for and was in use by the customers.

The complaints spelled out in the thread are from past or aspiring customers complaining that they have not been given any details about a product that is not for sale and has not been paid for or pre-purchased. Is there any industry where companies are required to discuss future products before they are ready for sale? Especially when the company has explicitly said that the product is not ready and they want to give an accurate account of the future features/timeline. Saying the product is not ready is a totally reasonable explanation for not talking about it.

I agree that it would have been better if there were no potential dates mentioned, but if Leatherneck hadn't mentioned a single thing about their future product people would still be outraged by the total lack of information.

Leatherneck is in this situation because people are really excited about their products and can't stop thinking about it. If people were genuinely turned off and decided to not become a future LNS customer, they wouldn't bother talking about it. When people move on and don't care, they don't talk about it.

It's hard to wait for things that could be awesome, but there is no alternative....

Plus, it's the case with ED and every other 3rd party, DCS users are well-practiced at the waiting game. Plus, the wait is almost over...probably.

-Nick

I'm amazed at some of the choices these dev teams are making. Doesn't it make sense to recreate one that will sell the most copies? Tomcat, I get that. Viggen? Doubtful anyone in my squadron will waste their time with it. Kinda like ED choosing the Black Shark. A chopper that doesn't even really exist in real squadrons. What's next, Comanche? The point is that if ED is looking to enlarge their audience a Hawk or some other trainer really isn't the best choice. That is if you intend to make money.

ED isn't doing the Hawk.
Looking at the Viggen thread over at the other site it seems to gather some interest.
What airframes should they go for, in your opinion (be it ED or 3P)?

Obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. Aren't there only about 100 A-10C's? Seems pretty obscure to me.

Though in the case of the Black Shark, I'm guessing it's simply a practical matter. Isn't the Ka-50 the only single-crew attack helicopter? I think it was a work around for the multi-crew problem.

-Nick

You recreate an aircraft as best you can and craft an enjoyable experience. Quality leads to sales.
Whether the aircraft is a niche or not.



Just like the thousands who "weren't interested in the MiG-21" prior to release who ended up loving it and it becoming their favourite DCS Module. We're seeing lots of interest from all over the community; we will deliver an excellent product, and I have no doubt it will be successful.

Regardless, if you think our products are a waste of time, I'm not sure why you're posting in this thread.



Who exactly told you ED chooses aircraft or theatres for independent, 3rd party companies?

I am always the odd ball. Other people are screaming for the F-16C, F/A-18E, F-22, and F-35. But what I want is the F-4E and MiG-21bis. Until DCS MiG-21bis was announced as a crowdfunding project, the only sim that even came close to making me happy with jets was the SFP1/WoX/SF2 series. I was constantly flying variants of the F-4, MiG-21, and MiG-23, as well as the Century series of American fighters. It just so happened, just as Third Wire announced it was possibly going to make the "sim lite" even "liter" or even switch over to tablet games, the DCS MiG-21bis announcement arrived an lifted my hopes of finally getting a decent hard-core study sim of the F-4 and MiG-21.

Despite a long and rocky development period and less than accurate announcements, the MiG-21bis turned out to be almost perfect, for a beta release.

The Draken, Viggen, and Gripen are all fantastic aircraft and rarely modeled at all in sims, much less to a study sim level. I would gladly buy them all. While I would be even more excited about the JA-37, the AJS-37 will almost be just as much fun.

I may not care much for LNS marketing/announcements techniques, but I sure do look forward to the final results... whenever they finally become available. The F4U-1D and F-14A are just as exciting to me as the AJS-37. I will hate waiting for them to be made available for download.

Technically you are correct, they don't choose them BUT they can deny them the license to produce it and while that may not be choosing which aircraft to develop, they do have the final say on what gets produced.

Mig21 is an iconic plane. People that hate it or despise it were well aware of its iconic value and although complaining about it not being the F18 or Su37 they were hoping they slowly fell in love with the 21 or at least fell for it enough to buy it. For Viggen... it might be the same due to the quality or LNS might hit a bump. It is possible that Corsair to drag the sales on Viggen if they will have similar great (if) quality.

But imho, Viggen will not have the same impact as the 21 if they will be on equal quality. Maybe if it will be better quality wise... maybe.

P.S.

I can still move my Mig21bis sideways at 6Km/h withot using brakes... just the rudder pedals.

For the Russian market it makes a lot of sense, the Ka-50 was/is the Russian equivalent of Airwolf. Quite an iconic aircraft, just not in the Western world, and I dare say the same is true of others.

Ka-50? A-10C? Military contracts that become free profits when turned around to become consumer grade products.

Very well said - my thinking from the start.

I was aghast at the 26 page (when I last looked) forum thread at LOF thoroughly pounding ED because they (a Russian dev team) had dared to make a Russian aircraft and not an American one. It was embarassing.

Haven't been back to LOF since and don't intend to.

DCS has opened a whole new world of simming for me. Do tell, where else would I have discovred that performing a realistic engine start on a Mig15 is pure joy? Where else would I have realized how enjoyable it was to dive into the cockpit of a Mig21, with all functioning switches and gadgets? I don't even have any books on early Russian post-war jet technology.... Now because of DCS, I have to take a trip to every book store I can find to add to my vast library of military reading material.

I would hope that DCS was purely about 1950's jet technology. Period. Bring em all. Every F model, every Mig model up to the Mig 27, I'll even go as far as the "modern" F4.

So sick of modern jets they don't even interest me anymore, with their fly by wire, can't crash, all too easy to fly technology. I want roaring, screaming, unstable flying, shiny cones of aluminum.