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#4198749 - 11/24/15 10:51 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: Nate

Please explain what legal rights are required and for what? Also please specify what exactly did ED acquire, what funding or work, exact details please.

When RRG Folded the WW2 project should have died. IMO ED should never have stepped in when it collapsed, it is waste of resources.

Nate


Actually...I want someone to tell me that it's not just the Wild West out there in Kickstarter land. If your saying nobody needs any legal basis to take over a project...then you're saying that Electronic Arts could have just swooped in and took over the DCS WWII project? I doubt it.

There has to be some legal basis for someone to take over assets and a project.

Are you saying that anyone can take over any project at anytime without any legal issues Nate?


they could have swooped in and hired the artists when RRG dissolved and took their IP for BF Normandy if they wanted too.

In a simplest terms.

RRG dissolved, DCS WWII Died, project over as far as KS/Amazon/CF is concerned.
With company dissolved, IP shifts from company to original artists, assuming it wasnt always the artists IP to begin with.

Those artists can take their IP, sell ot on turbosquid, sell it to some other company, or bring it with them to another company (ie EA and Battlefield Normandy).

With 3D externals, Cockpits, textures, systems and Flight models already partially developed, ED can then Hire those artists and they can being their IP to DCS World as individual Modules.


The actual DCS:WWII Normandy project we funded died with RRG.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 11/24/15 10:59 PM.

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#4198754 - 11/24/15 10:54 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: Nate

Please explain what legal rights are required and for what? Also please specify what exactly did ED acquire, what funding or work, exact details please.

When RRG Folded the WW2 project should have died. IMO ED should never have stepped in when it collapsed, it is waste of resources.

Nate

There has to be some legal basis for someone to take over assets and a project.


I was asking you for the legal details. I got the impression you knew what they were, and this was the source of your indignation. But Skate has kindly cleared that up now.

Nate

#4198758 - 11/24/15 10:59 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla

Legally ED didnt have to provide ANY backer rewards, if I read the TOS Agreement with KS correctly. That is the responsibility of the company that published the KS Campaign, which is the same for other CF sites.


I guess we can go on this merry-go-round again if you like Skate.

ED's name was listed as a partner on the campaign...they also stated it was a joint venture...so there should be some responsibility.


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#4198759 - 11/24/15 11:01 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: OcelotPilot]  
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the details of how everything went down will never be public.

But like I said simplest terms
RRG dissolved, Project Dead, ED hires employees and continues developing with IP.

this happens alot with non AAA titles, you'd be surprised.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 11/24/15 11:02 PM.

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#4198760 - 11/24/15 11:03 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: Force10]  
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No, you believe that there should be some responsibility, but you simply have nothing to back that assertion with.

Name-dropping does not equal responsibility, like it or not. And I know for a fact that there were funny looks cast at certain promises; there's no fault of ED's here, no matter how hard you want to propagate that conspiracy.

Originally Posted By: Force10
I guess we can go on this merry-go-round again if you like Skate.

ED's name was listed as a partner on the campaign...they also stated it was a joint venture...so there should be some responsibility.


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#4198761 - 11/24/15 11:04 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: SkateZilla

Legally ED didnt have to provide ANY backer rewards, if I read the TOS Agreement with KS correctly. That is the responsibility of the company that published the KS Campaign, which is the same for other CF sites.


I guess we can go on this merry-go-round again if you like Skate.

ED's name was listed as a partner on the campaign...they also stated it was a joint venture...so there should be some responsibility.


Correct, it isna merry go round, which isnwhy crowd funding is a joke.

They legally dont as the project was published by RRG,

They did retain a rewards structure when they resumed development though, so they "shared some responsibility", as you put it.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 11/24/15 11:05 PM.

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#4198766 - 11/24/15 11:15 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
No, you believe that there should be some responsibility, but you simply have nothing to back that assertion with.

Name-dropping does not equal responsibility, like it or not. And I know for a fact that there were funny looks cast at certain promises; there's no fault of ED's here, no matter how hard you want to propagate that conspiracy.


I'm not name-dropping Ghost...I didn't put ED's name on the Kickstarter and press release...they did.


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#4198769 - 11/24/15 11:17 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: OcelotPilot]  
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You guys still going at it?

#4198771 - 11/24/15 11:17 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: OcelotPilot]  
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Originally Posted By: OcelotPilot
Hi everybody!

Just here to make a very quick post about Forum complaints. I admit I have been away from DCS for a while, but from reading in the forums I think some voices need a reality check and possibly a smack on top of the head.

Too long development, too long betas, other planes and helicopters should be made and so on.
Here's a company that makes attack aircraft to a crazy level of detail, like never done before, and then the community complains that it takes too much time? Would you guys rather have games like assassins creed unity, or fallout 3 where the bugs and crashes are normal, and maybe patched away a year later?
You guys should support the decision to wait and let them finish.

Beta is too long? Probably not comfortable calling it finished yet, that's a good thing! Don't like betas? Don't buy it. Betas are in progress, expect bugs, crashes, massive CTDs, computer completely frozen up and possibly on fire, you might even suffer a stroke

Wrong modules being made? That's largely a matter of our personal opinion and what ED wants to make. I don't send emails or write in EA forums complaining about not getting road rash 4 or desert strike 2, saying that battlefield makes no sense to produce. "Oh ED are so lame for making the L-39, I won't bother playing/buying any modules if I don't get the XB-70 soon"

If EA ran ED we would have had every plane ever made by now, but with the realism of strike eagle on Atari.

I know we have strong opinions about stuff we love, but if Matt and his ED pals decide to pack it up one day because they are sick of it... I say we will have a hard time convincing the money suckers in the fiery lake of EA, UBISOFT, activision and these places to carry on.

*ps; I'm not saying ED or their 3rd parties are perfectly perfect like Super Jesus™, there will be people out there with genuine reasons to be annoyed, however the complaints of the childish "I want everything now" nature is just unnecessary.

Thank you


Reply to some of the comments I got here;

1. amnwrx has a good point in that people with legitimate complaints get buried with non related whining.

2. Dont feel entitled to any updates or videos about projects in the works. Some of you are probably too young to remember how game developing was back in the old old days. You heard that Diablo 2 was in the works, and maybe they did an interview for a gaming magazine. No developer updates, weekly videos or screen shots. Heck, most games today wont even let you demo their games. DCS has a decent demo without time limits or anything.

3. For you Scrim; You just proved my point exactly with this post. You went on a long rant about broken deadlines and the Huey was a flop. Again with the deadlines. You need to understand that they work hard on making a good product, and unexpected hiccups occur and things take longer. If you have ever made anything in your life, then you will know that sometimes things take longer than you thought. Huey was a flop? A commercial flop? Or it was such a flawed product it was a flop? I cant say anything about sales of the huey, but it certainly is not a "flop product" A flop means "total failure".
A friend of mine plays with some real life UH-1H pilots on a server, these guys are also instructors on it. They teach others how the machine works and how you fly it properly and procedures for different situations. Im sure if you put a gun to their heads they will admit its not 1:1 perfect, but they do say its a lot of fun and pretty damn accurate. If those guys enjoy it, why cant you? You throw around the word fraud. Fraud is basically stealing someones money without getting anything back. Like if you buy a playstation on ebay, and when you open the box there is nothing but potato skins.

4. I somehow dont think the military will be on the ED forums, sending emails or calling every day or week asking wheres my product? where is my product!?!
Thats not how things work. Whenever something new is being developed, delays are guaranteed. I wish ED or 3p would just say; Its finished when its finished, maybe we will give some updates along the way. Or if for you guys desperate for deadlines; Release date 31.12.2035.

5. For you Foxtail; Im not even going to take on your utter rubbish. But if that was true: Shame on your friends for not sharing this with the rest of us!

6. Mustang has a point and I dont want dig too deep a hole here. So I think I have made my self clear enough here and wont bother with any more replies

My closing statement would be that I think a part of the problem for a few people here is that you simply need to be patient. Instead of sitting in front of your computers smashing your head against the F5 key and get angry when nothing new has been released, how about taking a break from DCS? Play some other games maybe, you will get to experience some products that truly arent finished and maybe learn to adjust your expectations a little. Check in on the forums once a month instead, and find something else to do with your time. Learn to mod so you can appreciate the difficulty of making something, and at the end you will have contributed. Learn LUA scripting and make an awesome campaign that you can sell to ED or release for free!


This is entirely too mature and sensible. Go back and add some all caps and exclamation points.


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#4198783 - 11/24/15 11:34 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss
Originally Posted By: Revelation78



Quote:
in partnership with the experts at the Fighter Collection and Eagle Dynamics
You do realize that The Fighter Collection have a lot of old WWII aircraft? How do YOU know how involved TFC or ED was in the project? Could ED have only been ready to offer support for DCSW? Could TFC have only been ready to assist with the aircraft they have in inventory?

Do you have a copy of ANY contract or signed agreement to substantiate your claims?



is there any reason to be so angry ???

we are discussing a flight sim for Heaven's sake.


I'm not angry in my post.

#4198790 - 11/24/15 11:43 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: Hellfire257]  
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Originally Posted By: Johnny_Redd
A "joint venture/partnership" and "in co-operation with" are very different.


They can be, sure. How do you know the language of other 3rd party titles was't changed in reflection to the collapse of the RRG kickstarter campaign?

Originally Posted By: Hellfire257
I can't believe you're even trying to argue this point. They were in partnership. Partners.


How do you know. AGAIN, where is the contract or written agreement that they were a vested party in the project.

If some random Joe jumps online; starts a kickstarter campaign and states that Hellfire257 is his partner... Does that make it true? Now, you will probably comeback with the whole legal angle... At the time was it really a concern to ED?

#4198797 - 11/24/15 11:57 PM Re: ED And reality [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
the details of how everything went down will never be public.

And yet you are quite adamant that you know the whole story inside out. Don't you have some vested interest in ED? Moderator third party something or other? You would tow the company line and defend them.
Even if what you say is true, ED, taking control of the assets and continuing the project, cheated the backers out of a refund. If the project died the backers were entitled to a refund. After ED took over there was no possibility of that.
If ED couldn't afford to honour the rewards, as they were, why take over the project? Why do that? It makes absolutely no sense in any shape or form if what you are saying is true.
Here's what I see
Luthier took one for the team when the kickstarter total wasn't what was hoped for. ED having invested money in the project spun some BS to cut the rewards. The DCS community, always eager for new content, especially a new map, were all to eager to accept the BS story as long as the project continued. ED promising the remaining aircraft and map to be released by June 2015 a timeline of one year.
I no longer accept anything ED and it's spokesmen, that includes you skate, say as being truthful. I do not believe a word you say.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4198815 - 11/25/15 12:34 AM Re: ED And reality [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Revelation78

How do you know. AGAIN, where is the contract or written agreement that they were a vested party in the project.

Some folk just refuse to see what they don't want to see. It's clear as day on the kickstarter and it's clear as day right there on the DCS forums

Last edited by Force10; 11/25/15 02:34 AM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4198832 - 11/25/15 01:01 AM Re: ED And reality [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10



That's actually the first time I have seen that. Do you have a link?

Last edited by Force10; 11/25/15 01:43 AM.
#4198842 - 11/25/15 01:42 AM Re: ED And reality [Re: Revelation78]  
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Originally Posted By: Revelation78

That's actually the first time I have seen that. Do you have a link?


That was from a news article on the Bob game hub. After looking at that website closer...it seems they have it in for ED and are more of a "Luthier" fan site. So dis-regard that as it wasn't from ED themselves.

I'm deleting it from my post and from your quote.


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#4198845 - 11/25/15 01:53 AM Re: ED And reality [Re: OcelotPilot]  
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You might want to delete it from my post too


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4198847 - 11/25/15 01:57 AM Re: ED And reality [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted By: Johnny_Redd
Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
the details of how everything went down will never be public.

And yet you are quite adamant that you know the whole story inside out. Don't you have some vested interest in ED? Moderator third party something or other? You would tow the company line and defend them.

...

I no longer accept anything ED and it's spokesmen, that includes you skate, say as being truthful. I do not believe a word you say.

Not choosing to believe a person is entirely your perogative, but assaulting his integrity because he happens to be a moderator on ED's forum is something entirely different.

I have known SkateZilla for a number of years, as he has been involved in modding and playing flight sims (including those other than DCS/LOMAC) for a lot longer than he has been a volunteer moderator for ED's forums. He has also been an ED beta tester for longer than he has been a moderator, and it's fair to say that he has access to some knowledge that can not legally be made public.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, but if he states something as fact I tend to take that at face value.
You have the option of disregarding what he says because of his affiliation, and nobody here would hold it against you if you asked respectfully about any possible conflicts of interest. However, an accusation of a conflict of interest based on the assumption of one's willingness to "tow the party line" without any proof is irresponsible.

Last edited by HomeFries; 11/25/15 03:45 AM. Reason: clarification

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#4198848 - 11/25/15 01:59 AM Re: ED And reality [Re: OcelotPilot]  
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This is always a good read

Quote:
We have been reading the discussions here and we will try to answer your questions as soon as we have concrete answers for them. The exception will be the circumstances which led to this change in product management and development. Sorry, but that simply is not going to happen due to legal agreements.

One item I can shed some light on is where the Kickstarter funds went. All of the funds have been spent and they helped develop the Bf-109, P-47, Me.262, Spitfire, and Normandy map. However, given the massive amount of work, those Kickstarter funds were only a drop in the bucket of what is needed to flesh out this project. The vast majority of funds needed to finance this project have and will continue to come from Eagle Dynamics (not Kickstarter).

Why would a non partner have been funding a project that was nothing to do with them?
Edited for bearcat

Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 11/25/15 02:33 AM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4198854 - 11/25/15 02:27 AM Re: ED And reality [Re: OcelotPilot]  
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You really should consider using quotes or something when you make posts like this because the point gets lost and it is hard to differentiate between your post.. and your post of a quoted statement elsewhere.

{quote}your text here{/quote} with the {} being replaced by [] would really help.

Originally Posted By: HomeFries

Not choosing to believe a person is entirely your perogative, but assaulting his integrity because he happens to be a moderator on ED's forum is something entirely different......


That kind of stuff happens all the time though ... (cough cough...)

I take this stuff with ED as it is. I think a lot of folks in the sim community put way too much stock in all this.. I dropped a piece in the ED KS... so far all I got out of it was a 190 and a 109... I already had the P-51. I am waiting on the Jug and the Spit... and Normandy ... if they come.. GREAT!! If they don't... the money I spent is already gone... so while I will be disappointed I won't take it personal.. Given the developer in question and the whole CoD debacle.. I knew it was a risk and anyone who "bought in" not considering that.. especially if they were old sticks from back in the day.. well that's on them. The truth of the matter is that buying into a promise is always a risk. The same can even be said for ED... Look for whatever reason we have been in the Crimea since what.. LOMAC IIRC.. It is what it is... Will we ever see Nevada? I don't know... I hope so. Will we ever see Normandy? I don't know... I hope so.. Will I get my Spit and my Jug..? I don't know... but it is what it is... and all this extra stuff does not change that...

From the looks of things it would seem that SHQ has become the complaint desk of the sim world..


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#4198859 - 11/25/15 02:39 AM Re: ED And reality [Re: Bearcat99]  
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Originally Posted By: Bearcat99
The truth of the matter is that buying into a promise is always a risk.


That's true. Don't you think that folks "perceived" the risk was minimal considering ED was listed as a partner in this "joint venture" though?


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