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#4192860 - 11/09/15 11:36 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: Chuck_Owl]  
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Tom_Weiss Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chuck_Owl
Originally Posted By: straycat
Sounds like a PR trick. Just to alleviate concerns of people complaining about it.


Tom Weiss, time to give back your award. This guy deserves it even more.


only if you get me a copy of the Mirage 2000 when it comes out wink

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4192862 - 11/09/15 11:41 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: straycat]  
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bogusheadbox Offline
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Excuse me for butting in between the personal attacks.

But.

And please correct me if i have the wrong idea........Isn't the term EFM an all encompassing term?

EFM = external flight model. Could this encompass everything from a basic flight model more basic than old fc3 to a flight model more detailed than the best offering from ED?

Or does the term EFM hold a minimum level f fidelity and if so what are the requirements for such


Fighterops...

The only TRUE Stealth crowd funded game.

Devs said there was stuff there, but you just couldn't see it.
#4192901 - 11/10/15 01:35 AM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: straycat]  
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GrayGhost Offline
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EFM is the responsibility of the 3rd party. Yes, it could be anything, including some sort of SFM equivalent.

However, if it's typically strongly implied that EFM is a step up from SFM (otherwise why do it?), more equivalent to AFM. P/A/SFM are ED's terms for their products, and EFM is an API that allows the 3rd party to plug in their own FM engine. So while it could be anything, IMHO if you're not using the existing SFM, it implies your implementing a more complex FM IMHO.


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#4193036 - 11/10/15 12:29 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: GrayGhost]  
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straycat Offline
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Which part of "Due to that, from now on the aircraft will use the EFM exclusively in all our tests/development sessions" is so awfully weasely?

It delares intent quite clearly. When all that's on your head is weasel words, that's the only thing you'll see everywhere.



I have a reason for that.

Mig21 - Shipped with AFM
F86 - Shipped with AFM
BF109 - Shipped with AFM
FW109 - Shipped with AFM
Mig15 - Shipped with AFM
Huey - Shipped with AFM
Mi8 - Shipped with AFM
L39 - Shipped with AFM

CC101 - Announced they would ship AFM after release
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=136750

Quote:

The C-101EB model is now complete, with the light attack C-101CC version close behind. The AvioDev Technical Team is comprised of rated pilots and engineers that are dedicated to providing the highest level of accuracy and realism.

The Beta of the C-101CC is scheduled to be released by the end of February 2015. Advanced flight models are currently in development and will follow the release of the C-101EB and C-101CC.


Hawk - Announced they would ship AFM after release



Mirage - Has not yet confirmed AFM for release
Quote:
Folks, today we have passed a milestone. Today we have declared the EFM in Beta status. Due to that, from now on the aircraft will use the EFM exclusively in all our tests/development sessions.



The weasel wording is that they make it look like it is just around the corner, implying it as people would say. But when they fail to deliver half a year later they can claim "we never said that we would...". Also if we get no clear release dates or confirmations and instead they post vague progress reports on how well stuff is progressing, that is usually a very strong indicator of something not being ready soon in DCS. Compare it to CC101 statement. If you read that post in January, would you have expected at least 11 months delay?

If they can not confirm wether major features like AFM are in the game on release, less than 2 months before release then that is some #%&*$# project management. My other concern is that some 3rd party devs are using this esablished "standard" of

initial release, followed by unspecified delays until the thing is complete, so they can leisurely work on it on the side apart from their day jobs, while already receiving the money up front.

So to conclude the post, all modules that mentioned "AFM right around the corner, after release!" failed to deliver it. Razbam cant confirm, and is dodging any clear answer.

For comparison: Fallout 4 cost 55€, had a release date 5 months ago, and shipped with all announced features.

Last edited by straycat; 11/10/15 12:31 PM.
#4193041 - 11/10/15 01:00 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: straycat]  
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Davemetalhead Offline
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Abingdon, Oxon.
Originally Posted By: straycat
[quote=GrayGhost]

For comparison: Fallout 4 cost 55€, had a release date 5 months ago, and shipped with all announced features.


Are you really comparing a AAA budget mainstream release to a niche title? Of course Fallout 4 had the release date and features, the budget and team of Bethesda dwarf any flight sim developers, and you know it.

Still, can't let that stop you from your daily rant ...


Part time poster
Full time lurker
#4193049 - 11/10/15 02:17 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: straycat]  
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straycat Offline
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Quote:
Are you really comparing a AAA budget mainstream release to a niche title? Of course Fallout 4 had the release date and features, the budget and team of Bethesda dwarf any flight sim developers, and you know it.

Still, can't let that stop you from your daily rant ...



http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/de/shop/modules/m2000c/
Quote:
$59.99


59.99$ = 56€

#4193061 - 11/10/15 03:48 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: Davemetalhead]  
Joined: Sep 2010
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Johnny_Redd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Davemetalhead
Originally Posted By: straycat
[quote=GrayGhost]

For comparison: Fallout 4 cost 55€, had a release date 5 months ago, and shipped with all announced features.


Are you really comparing a AAA budget mainstream release to a niche title? Of course Fallout 4 had the release date and features, the budget and team of Bethesda dwarf any flight sim developers, and you know it.

Still, can't let that stop you from your daily rant ...

To be fair these flight SIM developers are not developing the whole game. They are recreating an aircraft. 1 aircraft. An aircraft for which they have all the data. An aircraft that they have received pre release money to continue its development. They are not creating an ever expanding game world, they are "copying" an aircraft.
If you compare the screenshots of the in game mirage to the metal2mesh fsx mirage it appears the model is the same. All Razbam need to do is the fm and weapons systems.
I could take a model and, with using the wonderluft template, release it tomorrow. It's not that hard to get to the point where Razbam, veao and the c101 are, at this point.

Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 11/10/15 04:41 PM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4193077 - 11/10/15 04:19 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: straycat]  
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Tom_Weiss Offline
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3rd Planet, Sun
Originally Posted By: straycat
Quote:
Are you really comparing a AAA budget mainstream release to a niche title? Of course Fallout 4 had the release date and features, the budget and team of Bethesda dwarf any flight sim developers, and you know it.

Still, can't let that stop you from your daily rant ...



http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/de/shop/modules/m2000c/
Quote:
$59.99


59.99$ = 56€


the truth is - I'll have to skip most of the 3rd party add-ons as I cant support more than one flight sim full time (P3D) , buy some games and keep upgrading my GPU every year as I do, simply impossible, the only DCS add ons I plan to buy are Hormuz, F-18C and F-5E, and only the last two if they release the templates as well.

#4193095 - 11/10/15 05:35 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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hawkeye4640 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johnny_Redd
Originally Posted By: Davemetalhead
Originally Posted By: straycat
[quote=GrayGhost]

For comparison: Fallout 4 cost 55€, had a release date 5 months ago, and shipped with all announced features.


Are you really comparing a AAA budget mainstream release to a niche title? Of course Fallout 4 had the release date and features, the budget and team of Bethesda dwarf any flight sim developers, and you know it.

Still, can't let that stop you from your daily rant ...

To be fair these flight SIM developers are not developing the whole game. They are recreating an aircraft. 1 aircraft. An aircraft for which they have all the data. An aircraft that they have received pre release money to continue its development. They are not creating an ever expanding game world, they are "copying" an aircraft.
If you compare the screenshots of the in game mirage to the metal2mesh fsx mirage it appears the model is the same. All Razbam need to do is the fm and weapons systems.
I could take a model and, with using the wonderluft template, release it tomorrow. It's not that hard to get to the point where Razbam, veao and the c101 are, at this point.


This is way off base and borderline insulting with this statement.

All the resources are available to you, including my more detailed (although heavily flawed) F-16 example. To create both a cockpit and airframe model. So why haven't you done it??

That means over the past year you could have made 365 aircraft in a year! I'm looking forward to your high fidelity flight model including all systems logic in a day, thanks.

I think my days monitoring SimHQ are over.

#4193105 - 11/10/15 06:01 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: hawkeye4640]  
Joined: Sep 2010
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Johnny_Redd Offline
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Johnny_Redd  Offline
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Originally Posted By: hawkeye4640
Originally Posted By: Johnny_Redd
Originally Posted By: Davemetalhead
Originally Posted By: straycat
[quote=GrayGhost]

For comparison: Fallout 4 cost 55€, had a release date 5 months ago, and shipped with all announced features.


Are you really comparing a AAA budget mainstream release to a niche title? Of course Fallout 4 had the release date and features, the budget and team of Bethesda dwarf any flight sim developers, and you know it.

Still, can't let that stop you from your daily rant ...

To be fair these flight SIM developers are not developing the whole game. They are recreating an aircraft. 1 aircraft. An aircraft for which they have all the data. An aircraft that they have received pre release money to continue its development. They are not creating an ever expanding game world, they are "copying" an aircraft.
If you compare the screenshots of the in game mirage to the metal2mesh fsx mirage it appears the model is the same. All Razbam need to do is the fm and weapons systems.
I could take a model and, with using the wonderluft template, release it tomorrow. It's not that hard to get to the point where Razbam, veao and the c101 are, at this point.


This is way off base and borderline insulting with this statement.

All the resources are available to you, including my more detailed (although heavily flawed) F-16 example. To create both a cockpit and airframe model. So why haven't you done it??

That means over the past year you could have made 365 aircraft in a year! I'm looking forward to your high fidelity flight model including all systems logic in a day, thanks.

I think my days monitoring SimHQ are over.

Before you get your panties in a bunch next time, re read what I wrote. I made no mention of high fidelity flight models. I said using the wunderluft template, (if that is yours, congratulations, I have used it many times and have put many aircraft into DCS world, it is an outstanding contribution to the community and I applaud you), I could put an aircraft into DCS and be at the same point as the 3 mentioned 3rd party developers. Your post just confirmed my point. "All the resources are available to you, including my more detailed (although heavily flawed) F-16 example. To create both a cockpit and airframe model." Not just me, anybody could, using your template and already having the model, put an aircraft into DCS world. What I've seen form razbam, veao and the c101 is a small step up from your wunderluft.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4193112 - 11/10/15 06:15 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: straycat]  
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bogusheadbox Offline
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Posts: 2,896
I really don't understand when someone has a barney with ONE other person, they have to throw in the "Well I am going to cry now and not visit here any more"

I don't understand it.

Sure some folk here are over the top with some of the things that they post. But can't you the other person go ok, you are wrong for this reason and just leave it as that.

To say that you want to quite a Simulation site because of that is a little more than childish in my opinion.


Fighterops...

The only TRUE Stealth crowd funded game.

Devs said there was stuff there, but you just couldn't see it.
#4193192 - 11/10/15 09:54 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: straycat]  
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,836
RainMan Offline
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Norman, Oklahoma, USA
I guess our concerns about EFM are justified. EFM could be 1%, or 100% of ED's PFM/AFM. I really wish that ED's own Yo-Yo would oversee the development of 3rd-party developer's EFM modeling.



PC: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz @ 4.6GHz | MSI GTX 980 4GB | ASUS Maximus VII Hero | G.SKILL Trident X Series 32GB RAM | 27" Acer Monitor (2560x1440) | 512GB Samsung 850 PRO SSD | Win10 Pro 64bit


Official VKB North America Sales & Support


#4193681 - 11/12/15 01:02 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: straycat]  
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Speyer Offline
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I suppose the best thing to do is wait and see.If it has EFM on release then buy it. Or don't.
What's with all the drama?

#4193686 - 11/12/15 01:37 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: straycat]  
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nirvi Offline
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Posts: 101
Switzerland
EFM video takeoff to landing.

Last edited by nirvi; 11/12/15 01:37 PM.
#4193704 - 11/12/15 02:45 PM Re: Mirage2000c will have AFM/EFM on release "if" ready [Re: straycat]  
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AZAviator Offline
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AZAviator  Offline
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Arizona
EFM is looking great! Can't wait to fly this thing.


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