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#4192664 - 11/09/15 03:41 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: MarkG]  
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Originally Posted By: MarkG
This HAS to be two separate code bases, right? Surly there's no classified stuff in the game versions, while some stuff must be intentionally modeled wrongly as to not get into trouble with their major paying customer (USAF).


Yes, some avionics code is of course altered from the original, but the game engine is much the same. The avionics code of a few modules has a lower footprint than the graphics/physics engine as well as the mission editor environment.

Last edited by Sobek; 11/09/15 03:42 PM.
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#4192701 - 11/09/15 04:52 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: MarkG]  
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Originally Posted By: MarkG


A Russian game company (based in Moscow, no less) making realistic simulations of active American warplanes?! biggrin



Remember Jim interviews..... about military market that continue actualy.
https://youtu.be/feiPqkvSfPM
https://youtu.be/gQxrHFDRV-0




Last edited by Silver_Dragon; 11/09/15 04:52 PM.

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#4192709 - 11/09/15 05:08 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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Regarding the DC - since we've had several old sims with that seemed to do them in a convincing way where is the real difficulty in implementation?

I know that DCS can trigger units into and out of the 3d world in it's current form. Computing their behaviour off-screen (which only has to be the most basic stuff) has been done convincingly enough too, albeit not by ED yet.


Thoughts?

Last edited by Vitesse; 11/09/15 05:08 PM.
#4192717 - 11/09/15 05:38 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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Originally Posted By: Silver_Dragon
Originally Posted By: MarkG


A Russian game company (based in Moscow, no less) making realistic simulations of active American warplanes?! biggrin



Remember Jim interviews..... about military market that continue actualy.
https://youtu.be/feiPqkvSfPM
https://youtu.be/gQxrHFDRV-0

I remember these well, thanks (and RIP Jim).

So they started as a game company and "Oracle-based products"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Dynamics

...and then were awarded military projects (like DID)?

Ok, cool. Now make a DC for the consumer market. smile I know, it's not feasible.

#4192723 - 11/09/15 05:44 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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Originally Posted By: Silver_Dragon
Originally Posted By: MarkG


A Russian game company (based in Moscow, no less) making realistic simulations of active American warplanes?! biggrin



Remember Jim interviews..... about military market that continue actualy.
https://youtu.be/feiPqkvSfPM
https://youtu.be/gQxrHFDRV-0





I remember these interviews as well. RIP Jim.

#4192764 - 11/09/15 07:24 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Vitesse]  
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Originally Posted By: Vitesse
I know that DCS can trigger units into and out of the 3d world in it's current form. Computing their behaviour off-screen (which only has to be the most basic stuff) has been done convincingly enough too, albeit not by ED yet.


Thoughts?


It's not just the rendering of units that guzzles up ressources. It's also the AI, flight models, damage models, ballistic calculations, seeker logic, etc. If you add abstraction, in certain situations some things will always be oversimplified, which changes the course of battle. This is the reason for the objection.

#4192772 - 11/09/15 07:42 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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Quote:
This is the reason for the objection.


I suppose if you work on a very basic 'probability of kill' ratio (say f15 vs a10 is always 95 percent in f15's favour) then yes, I agree, too simple. If you start to add in relative speed, heading, aspect, numbers of aircraft etc then you start to use up processing power and processor cycles are precious in DCS.

It'd be interesting to know how much resource F4 uses for the DC compared to the 3d.

#4192786 - 11/09/15 08:06 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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Originally Posted By: Sobek
It's not just the rendering of units that guzzles up ressources. It's also the AI, flight models, damage models, ballistic calculations, seeker logic, etc. If you add abstraction, in certain situations some things will always be oversimplified, which changes the course of battle. This is the reason for the objection.

Unless your AI code can mimic well trained human pilots, SAM operators, tank drivers, ship captains, officers in charge, etc., isn't this detail outside the bubble a bit overkill?

A description of Falcon's campaign can be found in several documents here, under the "Flight Guides" and "Development Notes..." sections...

http://www.lead-pursuit.com/downloads.htm

...although it's now years old.


Last edited by MarkG; 11/09/15 08:11 PM. Reason: Added quote


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Even though the day is done
Two suns in the sunset, hmph
Could be the human race is run
#4192791 - 11/09/15 08:16 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Vitesse]  
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Originally Posted By: Vitesse
I suppose if you work on a very basic 'probability of kill' ratio (say f15 vs a10 is always 95 percent in f15's favour) then yes, I agree, too simple. If you start to add in relative speed, heading, aspect, numbers of aircraft etc then you start to use up processing power and processor cycles are precious in DCS.


Just a simple example for you, how do you factor in terrain advantage into a groud forces engagement? Now i guess you'll agree that depending on the terrain, changing position, sometimes as little as a few metres, can make a sizeable difference. How does one go about aggregation of such a complicated matter without drastically changing the behaviour? Some areas get so incredibly complicated so fast that you might just as well simulate the whole thing. Of course the full blown 3d world engagement isn't completely realistic to begin with, but it is a better approximation than a statistic model.

Now for some, a good statistics model might be good enough. That's all good and dandy, after all nobody is saying that the F4 campaign doesn't work for its intended use, but for the reasons mentioned before, ED do not want to take that path, at least that was what they indicated in the past. As we all know, everything is subject to change, maybe in time they come up with strategies to alleviate this problem, maybe they won't.

Last edited by Sobek; 11/09/15 08:23 PM.
#4192798 - 11/09/15 08:39 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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MarkG thanks for the link. I'll have a look later.

Quote:
maybe in time they come up with strategies to alleviate this problem, maybe they won't.


I hope so. I don't mind about 'smoke and mirrors' as long as the player experience is believable.

#4192827 - 11/09/15 09:48 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted By: Sobek
Of course the full blown 3d world engagement isn't completely realistic to begin with, but it is a better approximation than a statistic model.


That's a bold claim, do you have any facts to back it up? Remember ground units constantly firing into the ground without any corrections, 6v6 MiGs vs Sabres - one team constantly wiping other clean without single loss. There always will be corner cases, but rock-paper-scissors model is much easier to tweak because it doesn't have to look "nice".

#4192835 - 11/09/15 10:16 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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I think many overestimate how hard a DC is to create.

Again, many, many older simulations have done this up to and including Pat Wilson's mission generator for RoF.

If ED wanted to do it, I don't think money is the reason to prevent them doing it, nor time, and I don't think it will break the bank if they sell it as an add-on. Furthermore, it can be a plug-in, it doesn't have to be part of core code that will conflict with their military customers. Then again, I'm not a programmer, so take my opinion for what it's worth.


"A week or even a month for someone basically saying "shucks, this is pants" maybe. But their banhammer only has the forever setting. Gotta set phasers to stun for the localization of female undergarments, not kill yo." - Frederf
#4192846 - 11/09/15 10:49 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Slider]  
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Originally Posted By: Slider
That's a bold claim, do you have any facts to back it up? Remember ground units constantly firing into the ground without any corrections, 6v6 MiGs vs Sabres - one team constantly wiping other clean without single loss. There always will be corner cases, but rock-paper-scissors model is much easier to tweak because it doesn't have to look "nice".


It's certainly easier to debug. hahaha

Yes there's oddities caused by bugs or design deficiencies.

#4192853 - 11/09/15 11:17 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted By: Sobek
Originally Posted By: Vitesse
I suppose if you work on a very basic 'probability of kill' ratio (say f15 vs a10 is always 95 percent in f15's favour) then yes, I agree, too simple. If you start to add in relative speed, heading, aspect, numbers of aircraft etc then you start to use up processing power and processor cycles are precious in DCS.


Just a simple example for you, how do you factor in terrain advantage into a groud forces engagement? Now i guess you'll agree that depending on the terrain, changing position, sometimes as little as a few metres, can make a sizeable difference. How does one go about aggregation of such a complicated matter without drastically changing the behaviour? Some areas get so incredibly complicated so fast that you might just as well simulate the whole thing. Of course the full blown 3d world engagement isn't completely realistic to begin with, but it is a better approximation than a statistic model.



That only applies if the AI is capable of making use of such terrain advantage, or any environmental factors. AFAIK in DCS's current state, it isn't. And you can generally account for major factors like cover, logistics and surprise the same way wargames at all operational levels have done for decades.

#4192858 - 11/09/15 11:32 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: toonces]  
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Originally Posted By: toonces
I think many overestimate how hard a DC is to create.

Again, many, many older simulations have done this up to and including Pat Wilson's mission generator for RoF.

If ED wanted to do it, I don't think money is the reason to prevent them doing it, nor time, and I don't think it will break the bank if they sell it as an add-on. Furthermore, it can be a plug-in, it doesn't have to be part of core code that will conflict with their military customers. Then again, I'm not a programmer, so take my opinion for what it's worth.


I am a programmer, and trust me when I say it is a massive effort to do it right. Not impossible, but a massive effort.

#4192868 - 11/09/15 11:52 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: toonces]  
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Originally Posted By: toonces
I think many overestimate how hard a DC is to create.

Again, many, many older simulations have done this up to and including Pat Wilson's mission generator for RoF.

If ED wanted to do it, I don't think money is the reason to prevent them doing it, nor time, and I don't think it will break the bank if they sell it as an add-on. Furthermore, it can be a plug-in, it doesn't have to be part of core code that will conflict with their military customers. Then again, I'm not a programmer, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

I sometimes pretend to be a programmer (Blitz Basic), then I take one look at the original Falcon source code in VC++6 and realize I'm not. smile

Another (legal) way to check out the source of a real-time campaign is EECH, if you can make anything of it (plain C). If anything, EECH gives me hope that you don't need OOP (object-oriented programming) to make a complex sim with a DC.

From what little I can make of both sources, the campaign code is no small undertaking. But then, I'm not the genius that ED programmers are so who knows...

Last edited by MarkG; 11/09/15 11:54 PM.
#4193046 - 11/10/15 01:59 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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I believe that toonces didn't want to imply that developing a DC was "easy".

He does make a very good point of mentioning other DC generators done for other combat flight sims, many of them done for free and often developed by one person or two the most.
Examples of such DC campaigns are for example Lowengrin's DCG for IL2 or OFF and WOFF dynamic campaigns. Basically these campaigns work by being a program that generates text code which generates a mission (most of the flight sim missions are composed by text lines and DCS is no exception to this), the generated mission is read the game/sim itself then the player will play the generated mission and then according to the mission's results, the results which should be text as well are read by the campaign generator and based on the last mission's result it will generate a new mission.

I believe that many players would be happy with such as solution.
Remember that this kind of solution helped to make IL2 (up to IL2 1946) what it is now (probably the most famous WWII combat flight sim of all times).

Of course that making a real time DC such as the Falcon 4 campaign or the EECH campaign would be much harder indeed but again an easier solution would be great al well.

#4193109 - 11/10/15 06:12 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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Considering DCS already has the Mission Generator (aka Fast Mission Bulder), this isn't much of a stretch. You can already set criteria for a quick mission. It's really a matter of adding constraints to that criteria for objectives, tasking, et al., as well as applying an order of battle and FEBA based on the conclusion of the previous mission.

The hardest part would be consistently developing missions that makes sense given the context of the campaign. Right now, even with entering arguments the missions are pretty random.


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#4194011 - 11/13/15 03:24 PM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Jerkzilla]  
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Originally Posted By: Jerkzilla
That only applies if the AI is capable of making use of such terrain advantage, or any environmental factors. AFAIK in DCS's current state, it isn't. And you can generally account for major factors like cover, logistics and surprise the same way wargames at all operational levels have done for decades.


At least right now the mission designer can set a path so that the terrain may work somewhat to the advantage of one party.

#4194984 - 11/16/15 06:10 AM Re: Wags require to the community [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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In DCS 1.5 I have noticed the Sabers getting really, really low. During an engagement they have surprised me lately with their new flight regimes. I am also no longer safe diving away. This brings a new level of complexity to the fight.
As far as using terrain to avoid AAA and surprise in an attack.... I think that would be asking to much of the current technology. But I know nothing of these matters.


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