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#4191400 - 11/06/15 08:50 AM Multiplayer stability Issue /Request  
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Powerstomp Offline
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I am very impressed and thankful to everyone who put the time and effort into updating EECH. It is amazing how far this game has come and how much work these guys have done.

I would like to make a suggestion. (Not sure if anything can be done .... just throwing it out there)
It seems for every major update ,the game's multiplayer compatibility and stability gets worse and worse. I currently host regularly and fly in group formation and succeed in completing multiple campaigns with a friend. We fly 3 or 4 times a week together ,and it is so much fun. Although the new Master Server Thealx created went down recently , multiplayer is still available and used by connecting direct IP with the host. My friend and I are forced to use Version 1.15.0 because Version 1.15.2 is just too unstable for multiplayer. If you're lucky enough even to connect (v 1.15.2),the host's and/or client's game will crash constantly. Version 1.15.0 has it's problems as well ,but I have had much more success & stability with the exceptions of a few maps when hosting.


I have read where some of these new graphic updates are incompatible with multiplayer all together (trees ,water ,etc). I was hoping that once all the recent work is compiled together into the new version that's eventually coming out, it will all be compatible for multiplayer. Even so .... the damage is done with v 1.15.2 original even with no add-ons or graphic updates.

My request is.... Can someone please look into the current multiplayer stability issues and put time and effort into resolving these for the new version before it is made available. This game is getting so much attention and upgrading on every other aspect ,it is just a shame to keep ignoring this.
I would love to experience all these amazing new updates while still flying with my friends as well. But until something is done ,I'm forced to stay at V1.15.0 and can go no further.

I will be glad to lend my time and provide hosting ,debug info , and whatever else is needed to help. I know it's difficult to repair bugs without consistent trial and error testing.
(pm me for any assistance)

Thanks to everyone for the progress so far. It is awesome!

Thankyou , Powerstomp

#4191401 - 11/06/15 09:00 AM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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Soczkien Offline
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Trees addon arent anything diffrent than older trees in 1.15.0 because those one i made too. Its just diffrent models.
Also water - its only textures so it shouldn't be problem too.

#4191614 - 11/06/15 06:59 PM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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it's true, visual mods have nothing to do with stability issues. it's mostly AI units behavior as I remember correctly, not specialist in this part of the game - that's why I wasn't able to find the source of real problems in short period of time (before 1.15.2 release). but I'm quite busy these days, can't promise I will be able to find any free time to work with eech. I will contact you if some assistance will be needed.

#4191736 - 11/07/15 12:16 AM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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Powerstomp Offline
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Yeah , I didn't see how visuals alone would affect anything.I haven't experienced any of these graphics issues myself. Unfortunately I haven't used them yet. Maybe when I read that ,they were talking about the client and host need to be using the same graphic updates together. Anyhow , thanks for the quick response ,and all the hard work you guys do.

Hopefully the bug or bugs can be found and worked out eventually. I understand Thealx . . . It takes alot of hours to address this issue. Thanks again guys!

Powerstomp

#4191907 - 11/07/15 03:24 PM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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As I remember from the very first attempts at editing EECH, modders report the MP commands are directly tied and mixed into graphics. and thats the issue. I used to be user Kimchoc maybe you've seen some of my missions. Thats the way I remember it. Looks like theres still no fix. Everyone before gave up.

#4192138 - 11/08/15 04:31 AM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: BammerVB]  
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Powerstomp Offline
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Ahh yes. I have played your missions and I definitely remember you from years back. Nice to hear from you.

Originally Posted By: BammerVB
modders report the MP commands are directly tied and mixed into graphics.


That's very interesting and the instability occurrence does coincide with updates that contain major graphic changes.

Through all the years , I don't remember any issues with multiplayer until the most recent updates from a few years ago. I hosted alot in 2000 through 2006 and even earlier years with Apache/Havoc. I've been absent from the game for a few years,so I can't say for certain which update the trouble started to appear ,as I'm sure I missed a few.

There used to be alot more multiplayer action before the Master Server went down.
But I don't ever recall any issues in those days even when I had 10 or more people flying in my server at the same time. I'm not sure what the updates contained back then , but I don't remember any visual changes ,and the game remained perfectly stable.

If these graphic updates are indeed the problem ,I'm afraid that everyone is just going to ignore it and trade stable multiplayer flight for updated beauty ,especially since most are just doing singleplayer these days.
I just hate to see what's happening here. From this point ,as time goes on , more and more version updates will take us further and further away from a side of this game that few have experienced and never will.

I've been trying to revive the multiplayer side of EECH for some time now , and had some major help from Thealx .... but my hands are tied with these bugs. Even though the new graphics and features are amazing , enhancing one part of the game isn't worth killing another part.

Well , it's nice to hear from you. Thankyou very much for the input.

Thx , Powerstomp

#4192392 - 11/08/15 10:29 PM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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pcriddle Offline
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A lot of the comms instability problems started after the Fly Any Aircraft was enabled years ago, try looking there.


If you want sympathy look it up, it’s between sex and syphilis
#4192401 - 11/08/15 11:00 PM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: pcriddle]  
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Powerstomp Offline
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Originally Posted By: pcriddle
A lot of the comms instability problems started after the Fly Any Aircraft was enabled years ago


I have already addressed that as a possibility. My client and I disabled this feature in the EECH.ini file when trying to get a more stable session with V1.15.2. It made no difference at all. Still crash after crash.
Also , the Faa feature is in V1.15.0 as well ,and it still remains very stable ,as we hardly ever experience any problems with the majority of the maps.

Powerstomp

#4192405 - 11/08/15 11:08 PM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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pcriddle Offline
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Have you tried an unpatched original game?


If you want sympathy look it up, it’s between sex and syphilis
#4192410 - 11/08/15 11:20 PM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: pcriddle]  
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Powerstomp Offline
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Of course. I've been hosting this game since it came out. (You already know this. You are one of my old clients)The problem is what the majority of the pilots out there are using. If I'm trying to get more people to join my game with an original unpatched version ,or any older update , I wouldn't get any clients at all to join.
Since host & client have to use the same version ,most aren't going to uninstall from the most recent update just to join.

Powerstomp

#4192426 - 11/09/15 12:04 AM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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hard situation confused On the one hand,you like multi, and I understand that.
But on the other hand, the latest version is light years compared to the old.
I could not go back to the old version.
These are quite different games.

#4192508 - 11/09/15 03:33 AM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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I hope 1.16.0 will be released soon, and it would be possible to debug the situation more in detail.

#4192891 - 11/10/15 01:09 AM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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Powerstomp Offline
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Originally Posted By: FireBird_[WINE
I hope 1.16.0 will be released soon, and it would be possible to debug the situation more in detail.


If you can't look at the bug in detail when it first appears in the current version ,waiting for the next version will only make it more difficult.
That's the problem. I'm trying to get some of the modders to look at the issue now ,so that the next version can be released (multiplayer)bug free. Why build a house with defective materials when you know you're just going to have to tear it down and rebuild ?

The bug is already apparent and obviously can be studied in the current version. It's just being ignored.
Basically , this bug is just going to be carried over. The longer we wait ,the more upgrades piled on top and the more difficult it becomes to track down. Burying the bug is what is happening here.

Powerstomp

#4192910 - 11/10/15 01:55 AM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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Well, the problem is that there is no "current version".
The code we have now is miles away from previously released 1.15.2. I say more - not only code, the data are changed a lot too.
While having all of beautiful mods "partially released" it's hard to say which player has which features installed.
And release of 1.16.0 while not fix bugs at least standardize "environment".

I'm fully agree that bugs must be fixed. But bugs are not only crashes and present not only in the code.
The are some textures released with strange dimensions - like 249x319. And nobody fixes that.
The texture for glass is bigger than the one for entire gunship's hull. But it looks great.
There are gunships without hull numbers. And nobody cares.
There are modded 3D scenes using six dozens of different texture files. Ah, let well alone.
It's nearly impossible to fly because of wild roll swinging... Well, maybe later.
Smoke stopped to be correctly affected by the wind, but it's one mile high now.
Havoc cockpit lost the needles and lamps again... Looks like nobody flies it.
Some maps are not loaded in debug version because of asserts? But release version has no asserts, no checks - no problems.
And more, and more, and more...

It looks like if you want some bugs fixed, it's easier to fix them by yourself, than to ask anyone to do that. We are all busy here, we have jobs and families, and so on. And we are not skilled in some questions, everyone has his own disadvantages.

Bugs fixing requires time and efforts, and they are limited. Will you provide yours?

#4192935 - 11/10/15 03:41 AM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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Powerstomp Offline
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I'm sorry if I seem over aggressive or even some what obsessive about this particular issue. I started this thread with good intentions and understanding. If you read the beginning of the thread ,I was very understanding with the replies from a few of the modders. I believe sometimes I have too much passion for this subject and come accross sounding a little more impatient than I mean to.

Originally Posted By: BammerVB
As I remember from the very first attempts at editing EECH, modders report the MP commands are directly tied and mixed into graphics. and thats the issue.

This makes me feel a sense of urgency to stop more damage before it's done. Because more and more graphic updates are being added constantly. So , I'm sorry if I sound impatient. It's not my intention. I just want "awareness" more than anything.
..

Originally Posted By: FireBird_[WINE
Bugs fixing requires time and efforts, and they are limited. Will you provide yours?


Yes. Even though I have no knowledge of working with the code ,I have worked with Thealx before providing hosting & debug info on multiplayer server testing ,Master server updating ,and the Fix5 update.

Originally Posted By: Powerstomp
I will be glad to lend my time and provide hosting ,debug info , and whatever else is needed to help. I know it's difficult to repair bugs without consistent trial and error testing. (pm me for any assistance)

This is my statement from the first post of this thread.

Again , I'm very sorry about my sense of urgency. I never meant to sound like something needs to be done right now. I just wanted the modders to be aware of the posssible cause and effect when they make the changes.

Powerstomp

#4192944 - 11/10/15 04:07 AM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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Originally Posted By: Powerstomp
I'm sorry if I seem over aggressive or even some what obsessive about this particular issue. I started this thread with good intentions and understanding. If you read the beginning of the thread ,I was very understanding with the replies from a few of the modders. I believe sometimes I have too much passion for this subject and come accross sounding a little more impatient than I mean to.


I have no intentions to blame you in any way.
In one of the posts above thealx said he would check the things when he would have free time for that. I cannot add anything to that statement, because I'm busy with different things.

Originally Posted By: BammerVB
As I remember from the very first attempts at editing EECH, modders report the MP commands are directly tied and mixed into graphics. and thats the issue.


Well, I cannot say that it is so. And that's all I can say now.

Originally Posted By: Powerstomp
This makes me feel a sense of urgency to stop more damage before it's done. Because more and more graphic updates are being added constantly. So , I'm sorry if I sound impatient. It's not my intention. I just want "awareness" more than anything.
..


Yes, I agree that bugs must be fixed. I remember once Microsoft spent a whole month only for bug fixing and no new features implementation.
But we here are no under anyone's control. And everyone chooses what he likes.
And I assure you - many graphic changes are not related to network code.

Originally Posted By: Powerstomp
Yes. Even though I have no knowledge of working with the code ,I have worked with Thealx before providing hosting & debug info on multiplayer server testing ,Master server updating ,and the Fix5 update.


And this is a very big problem of our (and maybe not only our) community. Anyone wants to do only some things, and some not. wink
I'm the same - I prefer to work with code only, and don't want to paint textures and construct 3d models.
If we had enough people of different skill it might work... But our efforts are very limited today.
The number of participants seven years ago was seventeen times larger.

Originally Posted By: Powerstomp
This is my statement from the first post of this thread.


Sure. I believe thealx will contact you when he's available.

Originally Posted By: Powerstomp
Again , I'm very sorry about my sense of urgency. I never meant to sound like something needs to be done right now. I just wanted the modders to be aware of the posssible cause and effect when they make the changes.


Well, again, I think you're a little too restrictive to modders. Not all of them may bring in critical bugs.

#4193067 - 11/10/15 03:57 PM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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"There are modded 3D scenes using six dozens of different texture files"
what exactly?
"Smoke stopped to be correctly affected by the wind"
It means ?They should be closer to the earth?Now are too high vertically, or do you have something else in mind?

#4193155 - 11/10/15 08:17 PM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: ]  
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Originally Posted By: XIII
what exactly?


The one I worked on, indirectly. Viper.
BTW, others are a little better - 2-3 dozens of textures per scene.

Originally Posted By: XIII
It means ?They should be closer to the earth?Now are too high vertically, or do you have something else in mind?


Well, when it became possible to tune the smoke, at first not all parameters of effects may be edited.
The modder had a goal - to make smoke to go much higher. And the vertical speed of the smoke was increased a lot. From physics we know, that if we increase a vertical vector much saving the horizontal one the same, its sum will be at greater angle from horizon. And it was. Smoke stopped to hang low.
The correct way of height increase, as we know from physics, was to increase time of life for smoke. Distance is a multiplication of speed and time.
Thus in 1.14 release smoke went the separate install file, in 1.15 release smoke was not re-released (the old installer was used), and suddenly it became a part of 1.15.2 installation.

Bugs, bugs, bugs are everywhere. And nobody may influence nothing - the anarchy reins.

#4208126 - 12/20/15 10:22 AM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: Powerstomp]  
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Powerstomp, can you recommend most unstable maps? currently I'm testing game in local network and it works without problem after increasing comm buffers, but I suppose some code issues are hiding somewhere.

#4208269 - 12/20/15 08:44 PM Re: Multiplayer stability Issue /Request [Re: thealx]  
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Powerstomp Offline
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(List was obtained through testing both Version 1.15.0 & 1.15.2) ( All maps were tested under Campaign )
_
Stable Map List : (Maps with * beside them might be slightly unstable -no written records)

1.Georgia
2.Alaska
3.AfogNak
4.Aleut
5.Lebanon
6.Cuba *
7.Thailand *
8.Yemen *
_
_

Positive Unstable Map List :

1.Europe - Server crash
2.Kuwait - Server crash
3.Lake Powell - Flight shake bug

_
_
The rest of the maps in the game that are not listed above have either not been tested in Multiplayer ,or it's been so long ,I can't remember the results.

Powerstomp

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