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#4127183 - 05/31/15 09:29 PM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Polovski Offline
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AI in OFF is nothing at all to do with WOFF AI which is utterly brand new.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4189201 - 11/01/15 03:48 AM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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I'm reviving this dead topic because of information which is new to me that I read and would like to share - to perhaps convince the devs to change their viewpoint on the role of support flights. smile2

Historically, the support flight would always engage. Examples,

"German KTB data shows that the majority of 1917 Jasta patrols were between 5 and 10 machines - but often in the upper & lower patrol configuration. Jasta 2 look to have pioneered the upper & lower patrol formation "

"On 1 June 1918 a notable Allied ace, flying alone, dove on a solitary Fokker triplane, unaware of the others waiting above for just such an opportunity. His wrecked SE5 was found near the village of Lievin."

"Lieutenant John Wright, C Flight, 4AFC. During the afternoon of 6 September 1918, Camels of 4AFC, SEs of 2AFC and Bristol fighters rendezvous over Foret De Nieppe then patrol together. He describes the formation as the 6 Camels at 12,000 ft, the 6 SEs at 14,000 and to the rear of the Camels and the 6 Bristol fighters at 18,000. He spots 7 Fokkers 1,000 ft above the Camels and the Bristols engage another formation of Fokkers higher up"

"On 9 Nov 16, 12 bombing BE2's (pilot only) went over with close escort of ten 11 Sqn FE2's and six 29 Sqn DH2's, with further top cover of 12 Nieuports from 60 Sqn . These were engaged by upwards of 30 German machines, with fighters from Jasta 1, Jasta 2 & Jasta 4."

"the big air battles over Polygon Wood had multiple flight patrols from several British squadrons clashing with multiple Jagdstafflen."

#4189219 - 11/01/15 07:00 AM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Wodin Offline
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I only ever see A flight near the beginning of a flight..then they are either miles back or no where to be seen. They are def NOT top cover.

#4189222 - 11/01/15 07:55 AM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Guys this has been covered before - they DO NOT FORMATE and stay with your flight.
They provide support at the target or top cover at the target.

Players are advised to actually formate with them....otherwise you will not have their support at the target they may well arrive before you or indeed after you.

The only time two flights formate and stay together is ESCORT

Read here:

http://www.overflandersfields.com/features-Dev.html


Basically:

Supporting Flights:

AI will fly to the same target and attack it - if possible.
They do not formate or stay with player flight

Top Cover Flight:


AI Will fly to target and loiter at altitude over the target (Top Cover) and attack any incoming enemies - if possible.
They do not formate or stay with player flight (they also may not get there).

Escort or Escorted:

AI will track your flight and aim to protect you or vice versa - they will stay with you and do their best to protect or you must stay with them and protect them.
They formate and stay with player flight in protective role all the way to target and back as best as possible.


Remember they may not make it to the target - just like you:
They may be attacked by other aircraft
They may be hit by archie
They may suffer too many failures

But if you fly with them you will see this unfold....


Bottom line: yes they do go to the target and either attack it or loiter above it and scout for enemy craft.
Its up to you to get there with them.

WM


OBD Software
#4189224 - 11/01/15 08:07 AM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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I appreciate your detailed explanation Winding Man and I don't mean to sound dense, but as I'm reading more I'm still trying to figure out what is historically correct.

So, based off of OBD's WW1 knowledge, do you think it would be more historically accurate to have either top cover or support aircraft to behave like the escort(ed) ones?

It sounds very appealing to have 20 to 30 aircraft engaged in a dogfight during the later part of the war.

#4189225 - 11/01/15 08:15 AM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Winding Man Offline
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Its a game - we have tried to make the AI behave as well as we can within the context of that.
Its one of the best AI out there.

No I wont make that function escort - because in WW1 even formation keeping was in its infancy and often times the flight never even made it to the target never mind all together.
Now some folks will post quotes 'proving the opposite' - really? - well its tiresome

The fact that two years on some folks dont believe that support or top cover flights dont carry out their duty is frankly a bit worrisome - well we have seen it so many times

Its one of the reasons why we are mulling another phase - TBH I think there is too much in WOFF already and most users have not seen it yet or dont want to believe it because of they have not seen it

I suspect we will be moving on to other pastures - we have made a game that has almost 70 player craft - has over 1000 targets per period of the war - in 12 periods - thats over 12000 targets - has up to 250 machines going about their business, 100s of real historically accurate squadrons to choose from, and a living moving front line, and thus gives the player one of the most immersive WW1 rides he can have.

I think its done.


BTW what you are wanting is larger flights - on Patrol - and there is a real CPU/GPU limitation with that.

Yes in the latter stages of the war there were such large flights - we need more power to do that in campaign.

Maybe 2020

WM



OBD Software
#4189226 - 11/01/15 08:20 AM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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I didn't understand your answers at first, so I re-read your post.

thumbsup

Last edited by OldHat; 11/01/15 08:30 AM. Reason: removed sad face
#4189227 - 11/01/15 08:50 AM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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lederhosen Offline
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I have had escorts break off and engage distant HA, and next day do nothing at all. Just don't count on them thats all.


make mistakes and learn from them

I5 4440 3.1Ghz, Asrock B85m Pro3, Gtx 1060 3GB
#4189242 - 11/01/15 11:36 AM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Quite so!

#4189243 - 11/01/15 11:37 AM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Im currently reading Raymond Collishaw's book Air Command. According to him the top flight was usually attacked first, so as to remove any chance of helping the lower flight.

I tind if I just imagine this is what happened it can be a little less frustrating when they watch you get shot up.

#4189256 - 11/01/15 12:44 PM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Olham Offline
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Thank you for the details, Winder (which have already been all there, if we only had read them...)

My tip to everyone who has problems with Escorts:

First make sure you REALLY meet them at the meeting point.
They circle there for a while, and only when the meeting really happens, they switch into "escort" mode.
You can see that when you have LABELS on, set to "Activity".
Their LABELS first say something like "...on transfer"; then they will show "...escorting unit X"
Only then they have really met your flight and escort it.
If the meeting doesn't happen, they may fly home.

If you are flight leader, make sure you fly close enough to them, until that "switching" happens.


Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club)
Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
#4189273 - 11/01/15 01:54 PM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Hey WM,

Thanks for the response.

I guess I understand that these requests get tiresome after awhile. But I think you need to understand that people get pretty obsessed over this game.

From that standpoint, I'm not sure that you would want it otherwise necessarily; first from what is says about how well OBD has done in making a truly immersive sim and second from the fact that most people on this forum will pay pretty much what you ask just for you to continue turning out more good stuff.

The consequence of course is that the people who love your sim for its laudable realism will, frequently, hound you for more of it.

It's certainly understandable that you have designed the AI to act in a certain way, based on your own perspective on history. To be honest, it's less understandable that you expect that fact to be inherently obvious. WOFF is a great sim. One of the very best I've played and I started playing them on a Timex Sinclair in about 1981.

But like any sim, WOFF has its limitations. The necessary assumptions of the claims system to keep it from simulating Godlike omniscience comes first to mind. So, when a fan who is absolutely steeped in his Flanders alter ego sees something like a "support" flight as often as not not, you know, supporting him, I'm not sure that it's entirely unreasonable for him to ask himself "why?" or "Is this a bug, or a stroke of genius on the AI's part?"

That is just human factors and no different than watching people repeatedly push the elevator button because the doors don't open immediately. Maybe the elevator is going through a thorough series of safety checks. Maybe the button is broken. Maybe something in between. But, without knowing, one can only wonder...and ask.

As for the fact that this was explained previously, perhaps it was. But naturally these things slip from the collective consciousness after awhile, and that's if everyone had read them in the first place. For my own part, that was before my time here. So, I would hope that you would forgive the masses their poor corporate memory.

In the end, it's sad that OBD finds itself debating on whether to continue the series because of the (sometimes wearying) enthusiasm of its fanbase. If you guys don't enjoy what you are doing anymore, I personally would not consider asking you to continue solely for my enjoyment. You've done a tremendous job and I don't think anyone would argue the point.

But consider, that OBD has proven itself a victim of its own success (though I generally loathe the phrase). The only way to avoid it on the team's (or individuals') next project(s) would be to fail at them. wink

With Regards,

Deacon

#4189281 - 11/01/15 02:10 PM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Well said Deacon.
BTW, can I hire you if I ever need a lawyer? smash


"Take the cylinder out of my kidneys,
The connecting rod out of my brain, my brain,
From out of my arse take the camshaft,
And assemble the engine again."
#4189290 - 11/01/15 02:41 PM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Olham Offline
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Some good points from the users' point of view, Deacon - which often are quite different to the developers' of course.

But my memory fails me where this was said:

"...it's sad that OBD finds itself debating on whether to continue the series because of the (sometimes wearying) enthusiasm of its fanbase..."

I didn't see any such reason named for their thoughts about making a final version.
But that may be due to the fact again, that we never seem to read ALL posts - perhaps you can guide me there.


Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club)
Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
#4189291 - 11/01/15 02:47 PM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Polovski Offline
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As WM says it's top cover, not an escort. They are flying higher hoping to clear the sky there. If you are flight leader follow them or keep closer, and see what happens. They are a flight like yours and things can interfere on their way, many of which you will not see.

We did put too much into it, that's a fact. I don't think it's acceptable just because we put more in than most flight sim companies to say therefore it's our fault that people look for more and more, usually picking on niggly bits that aren't quite to their taste and forget about the massive positives in front of their faces.

Guess it's like you go into a cafe and they have coffee or tea. You choose coffee, it's Ok and does a job, no comments. Any fancy one opens with 200 different drinks people point out the one they don't have.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4189307 - 11/01/15 03:25 PM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: Olham]  
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Deacon211 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Olham
Some good points from the users' point of view, Deacon - which often are quite different to the developers' of course.

But my memory fails me where this was said:

"...it's sad that OBD finds itself debating on whether to continue the series because of the (sometimes wearying) enthusiasm of its fanbase..."

I didn't see any such reason named for their thoughts about making a final version.
But that may be due to the fact again, that we never seem to read ALL posts - perhaps you can guide me there.



Well truly that was a summation of what I read in WM's second post. I gathered that the arguments against the AI were considered a bit tiresome and were causal (in the aggregate) to the potential conclusion of development for WOFF.

Of course, the arguments might be tiresome AND WOFF was concluding, those two points being unrelated. If so, I would certainly be inclined to apologize for putting words in anyone's mouth.

In any event, I'd be sad to not see more from OBD, particularly if it was because of some miscommunication between the developer and the community. I can certainly sympathize with OBD's frustrations, though I can't share them never having undertaken a similar project. But, I was hoping to present the player's perspective in a different light.

#4189341 - 11/01/15 05:02 PM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Hi Duke,

Forgive my ignorance, but what are the "obvious" reasons for not using "AI Always Engages"? I suppose it's not historically accurate and allows pilots to rack up quick kills?

#4189344 - 11/01/15 05:13 PM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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because "AI Always Engages" turns out the human factor completely and makes them attacking zombies or terminators. Always engages off makes AI consider many factors if attacking or ignoring enemy flights. When to go home, when to break off attacks etc. Like humans would do. They want to survive, break off fights in time to go home etc. Always attack means a single AC would attack a Formation of 8. He would never consider going back home but always fight until he crashes. Also they don't sense if they are behind enemy lines or not, how low they are etc. Nice for QC but neither historical nor realistic in a way in campaign.

#4189356 - 11/01/15 05:59 PM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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lederhosen Offline
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yeah in the old days whole flight/squads would be wiped out because of mental dogfights to the death.


make mistakes and learn from them

I5 4440 3.1Ghz, Asrock B85m Pro3, Gtx 1060 3GB
#4189364 - 11/01/15 06:13 PM Re: Does anyone ever get "support" from the Support flight? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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I need to clarify two points.

In my opinion, WOFF's AI IS NOT FAULTY, BUT IT CAN BE IMPROVED.
There was a discussion that I started about the AI behavior and what I noticed still stands. For example, Take any DVII squad on any mission including escort and they will always run away from SPAD XIIIs (unless ambushed). Not 99% of the time, but 100% of the time no mater their skill level, fatigue, injury, altitude, which side they're flying over, etc... Same applies to other aircraft combinations where one is much more superior than the other. This doesn't mean that the AI is faulty. It just means that from my point of view (and maybe others) it could use a bit of tweaking. There are other AI behaviors which have been mentioned like "going home" and "landing" routines as well. Again, the AI is not faulty, but it can be improved in this regards. It's just my point of view which people can agree or disagree.

In my opinion, WOFF's FM, DM, SHADERS, ETC... ARE NOT FAULTY, BUT THEY CAN BE IMPROVED.
This doesn't need examples, but they do exist.

I understand that no more improvements like I mentioned above will happen to the current WOFF.

Imagine if not a single person who has bought WOFF never pointed out what they would like to see improved and everyone always praised WOFF, would that make WOFF seem any better? I don't think so.

Bottom line: WOFF stands on its own merit and it's the best WW1 sim whether I or anyone else says it or not. But it doesn't mean that it can't use improvements..... in my opinion, of course.


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