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#4185899 - 10/25/15 11:57 AM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games *** [Re: Force10]  
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Starting to wonder what you all have on your pc's that make you so paranoid? Like I mentioned earlier use an old XP pc to do your banking or whatever and keep the cable unplugged only plugging it in when you use it. If your really paranoid why do you keep anything that important on a pc?

As far as games and flight sims go for win 10 I have not found one that did not work as well or better than any outdated obsolete op system.


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#4185925 - 10/25/15 02:49 PM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Warbirds]  
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Originally Posted By: Warbirds
...

As far as games and flight sims go for win 10 I have not found one that did not work as well or better than any outdated obsolete op system...


CFS 1 and CFS 3 come to mind as well Jane's F/A 18 for me. Weird thing is, CFS 2 works fine.


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#4185975 - 10/25/15 05:16 PM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Warbirds]  
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Originally Posted By: Warbirds
Starting to wonder what you all have on your pc's that make you so paranoid?


Oh Lord...why does not wanting your every keystroke monitored, cataloged, and referenced mean you're a bad person?

Would you accept a free house if your every movement and conversation was video recorded 24/7? If not...that means you're a bad person with something to hide...right?


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#4186062 - 10/25/15 11:21 PM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: Warbirds
Starting to wonder what you all have on your pc's that make you so paranoid?


Oh Lord...why does not wanting your every keystroke monitored, cataloged, and referenced mean you're a bad person?

Would you accept a free house if your every movement and conversation was video recorded 24/7? If not...that means you're a bad person with something to hide...right?


I agree that not wanting to have all of your information monitored in that way ("every keystroke monitored, cataloged, and referenced") does not make you a bad person, or even paranoid. However, anyone who believes Windows 10 is doing that at this point, with all of the actual evidence showing the contrary, *is* paranoid.


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#4186083 - 10/26/15 12:15 AM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted By: Arthonon

I agree that not wanting to have all of your information monitored in that way ("every keystroke monitored, cataloged, and referenced") does not make you a bad person, or even paranoid. However, anyone who believes Windows 10 is doing that at this point, with all of the actual evidence showing the contrary, *is* paranoid.


Again, from Microsoft's terms of use:

Quote:


We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to.


If Microsoft admits to it...what makes it so hard for you to believe? It may not be "24/7"...but it goes beyond any OS I have used before.

I'm curious Arthonon...are you using Windows 10? If so, do you realize they're using your bandwidth to seed Windows updates for everyone?

http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-silently-uses-your-bandwidth-to-send-updates-to-others/

You also commented about the forced Windows 10 fiasco recently...you don't think anyone has a right to be paranoid about this company?

I just don't see how you can put your faith in a company with so much shady crap going on. Who knows what updates will come down the road that pushes the envelope even further.


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#4186126 - 10/26/15 02:14 AM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10


Again, from Microsoft's terms of use:

Quote:


We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to.


If Microsoft admits to it...what makes it so hard for you to believe? It may not be "24/7"...but it goes beyond any OS I have used before.



I want to discuss this first, because it affects answers to the questions in the rest of your post. Can you show me the link where you got that quote? I can't find it in reference to Windows 10. All I found was a references to other services, such as OneDrive and Outlook.com, in which case that data is actually stored on Microsoft servers. Here's what I found at https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement :

Originally Posted By: Microsoft
Finally, we will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails in Outlook.com, or files in private folders on OneDrive), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to:
1.comply with applicable law or respond to valid legal process, including from law enforcement or other government agencies;
2.protect our customers, for example to prevent spam or attempts to defraud users of the services, or to help prevent the loss of life or serious injury of anyone;
3.operate and maintain the security of our services, including to prevent or stop an attack on our computer systems or networks; or
4.protect the rights or property of Microsoft, including enforcing the terms governing the use of the services - however, if we receive information indicating that someone is using our services to traffic in stolen intellectual or physical property of Microsoft, we will not inspect a customer's private content ourselves, but we may refer the matter to law enforcement.


The Windows 10 section of that page does not contain a reference to accessing any folder content, only performance data that includes information such as the number of folders on the desktop. If you can show me where you got that quote, instead of just quoting it, it would help track down what's really being claimed by Microsoft.


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#4186194 - 10/26/15 05:15 AM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted By: Arthonon


I want to discuss this first, because it affects answers to the questions in the rest of your post. Can you show me the link where you got that quote?


Sure...here ya go:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/02...-DO-NOT-INSTALL

Interestingly enough...the article has a link to their quote but it appears Microsoft has changed the wording to what you posted...at the time it said what I had posted. I'm sure what they collect hasn't changed...but the brutal truth of their wording needed to be "spruced up" to not sound as intrusive.

They more or less were saying "Here's how we will be raping you" but changed it to "Here's how we will be pleasuring you"...lol (that's a quote from someone here at SimHQ on a different subject years ago)

Here's the "services" that are affected:

Quote:


Microsoft Privacy Statement

Your privacy is important to us. This privacy statement explains what personal data we collect from you and how we use it. It applies to Bing, Cortana, MSN, Office, OneDrive, Outlook.com, Skype, Windows, Xbox and other Microsoft services that display this statement. References to Microsoft services in this statement include Microsoft websites, apps, software and devices.

We encourage you to read the summaries below and to click on "Learn More" if you'd like more information on a particular topic. The Service-Specific Details below provide additional information relevant to particular Microsoft services.


I bolded Windows...as they are calling it a service.


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#4186197 - 10/26/15 05:27 AM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: 531 Ghost]  
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Originally Posted By: 531 Ghost
Originally Posted By: Warbirds
...

As far as games and flight sims go for win 10 I have not found one that did not work as well or better than any outdated obsolete op system...


CFS 1 and CFS 3 come to mind as well Jane's F/A 18 for me. Weird thing is, CFS 2 works fine.




Thanks for that Ghost.
Saved me the time it would take to check each one.
And I'm fairly sure, you missed a couple more that would not work on Win10.

Win7Pro was the last best OS, for flight sims, and numerous games.
I didn't make a list, but I've read a lot of complaints from users on numerous other forums.
I don't need to find out the hard way.

I just want what I paid for.
Leave it alone, unless I ask for changes, or "UP-GRADES".....lol.... rolleyes

They learned nothing from WinXP.
I'll not buy another OS from Microsoft.

My word.
We each learn at our own pace.
Guess I was slow, I should have kept WinXP offline gaming, and Linux for the internet.


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#4186200 - 10/26/15 05:58 AM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
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The way I interpret it is that they, in fact, have not changed what they collect, and the new wording is more accurate to what they do. You have to remember that these documents are largely written by lawyers that are not in any way involved with the development and have no idea what it actually does.

And yes, the statement includes Windows, but it is separated by product with a separate section of it specific to Windows, and in that Windows section, the text you've quoted does not appear. Where the text does appear it was changed to specify the services it affects (Outlook.com and OneDrive). If you want to argue that they actually do more, but changed the legalese to make it sound like they're not doing it, then how do you know other services are doing things and they don't even write it up? If Microsoft can do whatever they want and not say, then anyone else can too. So, you'll have to literally stop using everything if you don't trust their privacy statements.

Do I trust Microsoft? No, no more than I trust anyone else. But I research what's going on and base my decisions on facts, and I don't go into a paranoid panic just because a bunch of bloggers create a bunch of click-bait articles. If someone wrote up a blog article saying that SimHQ collects a bunch of personal info without disclosing it, I guess you would have to believe them. For example, here's part of the SimHQ privacy statement:

Originally Posted By: SimHQ
This policy is effective and updated on July 31, 2000, and is subject to change without notice, particularly as new site features are added. For any questions about this policy, please contact guod.


So that means it could have changed without notice some time in the past 15 years, and Guod isn't even involved anymore. How can you trust SimHQ? A blogger could have a field day with that, but SimHQ isn't well known enough to get enough clicks so it won't happen.

You have posted things here that are demonstrably inaccurate, and when shown that it was inaccurate, you seemed to concede that and moved on to something else, but then brought it back up again even though it had been disproven. It just sounds like you've decided what Windows does based on a bunch of bloggers with old info and/or no supporting evidence and refuse to accept facts if they are counter to your beliefs. Based on that, I'm confident there is no amount of evidence that would ever make you reconsider the situation, I've just tried to provide some facts for anyone else reviewing this thread, so I'm done here. I don't care whether people trust Microsoft, install Windows 10, or whatever, I just hope they base their decisions on facts (of which there are plenty to cause concern) and not fear-mongering blog posts.


Last edited by Arthonon; 10/26/15 06:10 AM.

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#4186208 - 10/26/15 07:54 AM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Arthonon]  
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So in the same sentence you say there is "cause for concern" and then label it as "fear mongering"? lol

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
and I don't go into a paranoid panic just because a bunch of bloggers create a bunch of click-bait articles.


Rock paper shotgun and Newsweek...a bunch of bloggers? Ugh.

Not to mention there are literally dozens of articles and some utilities that show you how to stop Windows 10 from spying on you...did I imagine those?

I could have sworn just a page or two ago...many users (including yourself) were trying to help our very own admin Murphy, try to get rid of a Windows 10 update download that he didn't ask for and that Microsoft sneakily put on his machine. Only a registry hack worked for him. Something non-tech people and our older generation will not know how to do...I'm guessing these are Microsoft's intended victims.

There is one thing you are 100% correct on however:

You will never...ever...convince me that Windows 10 isn't spyware. Regardless of your "interpretations" or parroting Microsoft doublespeak...Windows 10 out of the box is the most intrusive piece of spyware ever created for an operating system.

Coincidentally, you never mentioned if you were using Windows 10 and if it was poaching your bandwidth to deliver updates to the world. You actually don't have to...everyone that installs Windows 10 has this turned on by default, and it's done so without letting the user know or aware of it.

I know...it's just "fear mongering".

Meh


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#4186276 - 10/26/15 12:51 PM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
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No, the point is that they have always done this. All that has changed is they're being more upfront about it now.

So by avoiding Windows 10 it's like quitting smoking the "new" cigarettes that have the surgeon general's warning on them, because those are bad, but thinking it's ok to keep smoking really old packs that predate the warning, because those cigarettes back then were fine.

The paranoia is thinking A is safe and B is unsafe. They are equally safe or unsafe, depending on your point of view.




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#4186282 - 10/26/15 12:58 PM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
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I like to keep things simple. I will not go to Win 10 until there are at least 2-3 games out there that I want to play which require DX 12.


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#4186401 - 10/26/15 03:26 PM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
So in the same sentence you say there is "cause for concern" and then label it as "fear mongering"? lol

Originally Posted By: Arthonon
and I don't go into a paranoid panic just because a bunch of bloggers create a bunch of click-bait articles.


Rock paper shotgun and Newsweek...a bunch of bloggers? Ugh.

Not to mention there are literally dozens of articles and some utilities that show you how to stop Windows 10 from spying on you...did I imagine those?

I could have sworn just a page or two ago...many users (including yourself) were trying to help our very own admin Murphy, try to get rid of a Windows 10 update download that he didn't ask for and that Microsoft sneakily put on his machine. Only a registry hack worked for him. Something non-tech people and our older generation will not know how to do...I'm guessing these are Microsoft's intended victims.

There is one thing you are 100% correct on however:

You will never...ever...convince me that Windows 10 isn't spyware. Regardless of your "interpretations" or parroting Microsoft doublespeak...Windows 10 out of the box is the most intrusive piece of spyware ever created for an operating system.

Coincidentally, you never mentioned if you were using Windows 10 and if it was poaching your bandwidth to deliver updates to the world. You actually don't have to...everyone that installs Windows 10 has this turned on by default, and it's done so without letting the user know or aware of it.

I know...it's just "fear mongering".

Meh

This post perfectly exemplifies what I've been saying. If you actually read the article from Rock Paper Shotgun, for example, you will discover they don't reference a key logger at all, nor do they provide any details on file access. They base their entire argument about it on the outdated text of the privacy agreement you quoted. Yet you continue to state the key logger as a concern. Microsoft is not watching everything you type, nor are they going through your personal files stored on your PC (that we can find any evidence of).

What they are doing is generating and advertising ID, monitoring how your PC is used, what apps are running, etc. I can see people being concerned about that. Cortana and Bing need to track what you type, and if you want things synchronized across multiple PCs, data (such as browsing history, favorites, etc.) has to be uploaded to Microsoft to allow it to be used on another device you log into. It has to get the data onto the other device you log into somehow, and uploading it to a central location that's available from any system you log into seems to be the most logical way to do that. I can see people not liking that, and therefore I think it's a valid concern. If you don't want those things done, in most cases you can avoid them by simply not logging in with a Microsoft account and use a local account instead. Cortana doesn't work, and it can't sync across multiple devices so none of that data is uploaded.

That's the kind of stuff discussed on the Rock Paper Shotgun article called "Windows 10 Is Spying On You: Heres How To Stop It" found here:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/30/windows-10-privacy-settings/

In it, again, they don't even mention the key logger you can't seem to give up on, and even though they mention files, it's not clear what they mean. They link to two other sites to detail their concerns. The first one is HERE, and it provides no evidence of anything, but bases its concerns on the privacy agreement, and specifically the section that you referenced that has since been clarified. It was also written before the final version of the software was even released.

The second link they use, found HERE is actually a comment about another article found HERE. It also largely bases the file access concerns on the outdated privacy statement.

Both of these articles also discuss the advertising ID, the encryption key being uploaded to Microsoft servers, Cortana, etc., all of which are largely valid concerns, but again, for the most part they agree that doing those things are necessary to make those items function as described (you can't have Cortana find nearby shops automatically if your location isn't shared, etc.).

These are also things that Google and other companies do. And I don't say that to imply that because some other company does it you should be OK with it, I'm bringing it up because it shows that that's how these systems work - you just can't do what they try to do without it. You can use Google, or Yahoo, or Microsoft, but if you want it to find data based on location, etc., then you've got to share it with someone.

I don't like having an advertising ID created, but again, to a large extent lots of companies do something like that (including SimHQ - look in the privacy agreement). Also, Rock Paper Shotgun has this bit of irony in their discussion of Windows 10 advertising: hello, uh, please either whitelist RPS in your adblocker and/or take a look at our Supporter scheme.

So yes, there are things about Windows 10 that I don't like, but I understand them and know what data they are gathering - NOT key logs nor personal files. I don't like the fact that Windows 10 downloaded automatically to people's PCs, nor that it's seeding other updates - all valid concerns and issues. However, the Windows 10 files have nothing to do with gathering personal information, so just because Microsoft is doing that, it doesn't automatically mean they've installed a key logger or are looking at my personal files - they are two completely separate issues.


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#4186418 - 10/26/15 04:06 PM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
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So you're saying this article from PCWorld last month about the key logger and how to disable it is bogus?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2974057/w...ll-has-one.html

I'm very curious why Microsoft doesn't file a lawsuit for making this up.


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#4186435 - 10/26/15 04:48 PM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
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That article is mis-characterizing what it is - it's not a keylogger, it's a tool that analyzes text to work better with certain systems. For example, on my phone, I type the name of my girlfriend a lot, so now, when it sees the first few characters of her name, it comes up as a suggested word I commonly use.

I can understand that people wouldn't like that and would want to turn it off, but it's not the same as a keylogger. The difference is subtle, and the article doesn't say MS is doing something they're not, so they are not going to sue.


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#4186442 - 10/26/15 05:04 PM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
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Ummm...no. It is the definition of a keylogger.

Just because they aren't using it to steal info for illegal usage like a hacker would...it doesn't make it any less of a keylogger. I understand that given your long rant against me stating Windows 10 doesn't have a keylogger...that you can't reverse your opinion now.

Windows 10 has a keylogger...period.


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#4186450 - 10/26/15 05:20 PM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
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OK, seriously, my last post on this. I think it's a matter of semantics at this point. Do components of Windows 10 view and analyze your typing? Yes. Are they logging and storing every keystroke somewhere? No.

Here's Kaspersky's definition of a keylogger:
Keystroke logging is an act of tracking and recording every keystroke entry made on a computer, often without the permission or knowledge of the user.

Windows 10 doesn't do that - it analyzes text and records information relevant to the usage, it does not record and store every keystroke. So it me, it's not a keylogger, but if it is to you, knock yourself out, I'm not going to argue it. Regardless as to whether it's a keylogger or not, I can see people not being comfortable with it. Fortunately, there are ways to turn it off.

Last edited by Arthonon; 10/26/15 05:27 PM.

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#4186461 - 10/26/15 05:35 PM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted By: Arthonon
OK, seriously, my last post on this. I think it's a matter of semantics at this point. Do components of Windows 10 view and analyze your typing? Yes. Are they logging and storing every keystroke somewhere? No.

Here's Kaspersky's definition of a keylogger:
Keystroke logging is an act of tracking and recording every keystroke entry made on a computer, often without the permission or knowledge of the user.

Windows 10 doesn't do that - it analyzes text and records information relevant to the usage, it does not record and store every keystroke. So it me, it's not a keylogger, but if it is to you, knock yourself out.


I guess PCWorld should have you as a consultant then...that way you can correct all of their mis-information and mis-characterizations. wink

I agree that we are down to semantics now.

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#4188829 - 10/31/15 03:29 AM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
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And in related news, Microsucks is going to make it even more difficult for Windows PC users to get out from upgrading to Windows 10.

http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/29/9639414/microsoft-windows-10-automatic-update-recommended

My solution is easy. I totally disabled Windows Update.

The only way my computer will check for new Windows Update files is for me to click on start/all programs/windows update and then on check for updates.

See? Totally disabled!

If it can't download from Windows Update, it can't install anything to create dialogue telling you to update to Windows 10 or anything that will force the Windows 10 installation without your permission.



#4188831 - 10/31/15 03:46 AM Re: Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 365
frinik22 Offline
Member
frinik22  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 365
In an age where the NSA can spy on every World leader's phone conversations and yours as well I wouldn't worry too much about Microsoft trying to spy on what program I use or website I visit....

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