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#4187968 - 10/29/15 06:24 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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Raw Kryptonite Offline
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Americans no longer think big?

We've got our ROBOTS ON FRIGGIN MARS.

"A PC in every home"...DONE

That "internet" thing. It might catch on one day and even go global. LOL

Tesla Motors, a line of electric cars...NOT GM, Ford or Chrysler. Don't think it's an American, but it's being done here.

Amazon...buy it today, very likely have it tomorrow if you want. Damned near anything. Next? Working on drone delivery.

Apple. Like it or not, but i____'s are huge. Unfortunately no one in the US cares to update our manufacturing to be able to build their products for them.

Virgin Galactic isn't just Richard Branson, there are Americans involved too. And the space port is located here.

Crazy Horse.




Not saying other countries don't have things going for them too, but don't sell the US short.
If Russia wants to go to the moon, that's fine. Been there, done that. Over 45 years ago.


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#4187974 - 10/29/15 06:29 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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PanzerMeyer Online centaurian
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+1 Raw.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4187983 - 10/29/15 06:34 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted By: Raw Kryptonite
Americans no longer think big?

We've got our ROBOTS ON FRIGGIN MARS.

"A PC in every home"...DONE

That "internet" thing. It might catch on one day and even go global. LOL

Tesla Motors, a line of electric cars...NOT GM, Ford or Chrysler. Don't think it's an American, but it's being done here.

Amazon...buy it today, very likely have it tomorrow if you want. Damned near anything. Next? Working on drone delivery.

Apple. Like it or not, but i____'s are huge. Unfortunately no one in the US cares to update our manufacturing to be able to build their products for them.

Virgin Galactic isn't just Richard Branson, there are Americans involved too. And the space port is located here.

Crazy Horse.




Not saying other countries don't have things going for them too, but don't sell the US short.
If Russia wants to go to the moon, that's fine. Been there, done that. Over 45 years ago.

Not quite right, A lot of people still want to invest in the country but govt regulations and treaties penalize just about anyone who tries.


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#4188043 - 10/29/15 07:28 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Entil'zha
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Originally Posted By: Raw Kryptonite
Americans no longer think big?

We've got our ROBOTS ON FRIGGIN MARS.

"A PC in every home"...DONE

That "internet" thing. It might catch on one day and even go global. LOL

Tesla Motors, a line of electric cars...NOT GM, Ford or Chrysler. Don't think it's an American, but it's being done here.

Amazon...buy it today, very likely have it tomorrow if you want. Damned near anything. Next? Working on drone delivery.

Apple. Like it or not, but i____'s are huge. Unfortunately no one in the US cares to update our manufacturing to be able to build their products for them.

Virgin Galactic isn't just Richard Branson, there are Americans involved too. And the space port is located here.

Crazy Horse.




Not saying other countries don't have things going for them too, but don't sell the US short.
If Russia wants to go to the moon, that's fine. Been there, done that. Over 45 years ago.


Other than the Mars probes and the internet every one of those things was invented to make money, not to explore. Notice the Mars probes and internet were not funded by corporations, but public money.

A company won't spend if it won't make a profit, and there's no profit in going to the Moon. Not until it's proven there's money to be made there, and no one will know if there's money to be made there until public funding spends for more exploration.

Columbus got gov't funding to blunder into the Western hemisphere, no company would foot his bill. Once he found it, and other gov'ts spent the early years trying to exploit it, they were pushed aside by the corporations who made real money doing it.

Why would space go differently?




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4188067 - 10/29/15 08:01 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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Raw Kryptonite Offline
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Nothing wrong with that. The space race was originally out of competition more than the sake of exploration. That's what making money is about--beating the competition.
That doesn't diminish it, there are a lot less risky ways to make a buck.


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#4188098 - 10/29/15 09:12 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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It was also an excuse to tinker with currently rocket technology to produce better and more reliable ICBMs.

Everything has a secondary mission.


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#4188109 - 10/29/15 09:42 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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In other news...man bites droid...... neaner


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#4188242 - 10/30/15 03:44 AM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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I prefer the term "Space Exploitation" over "exploration".

When there is profit to be made in space we will colonize the entire solar system, as long as we make it only about "science / exploration" it will never happen.


“Together, let us take up the challenge to reawaken America's religious and moral heart, recognizing that a deep and abiding faith in God is the rock upon which this great Nation was founded.” - Ronald Reagan, May 4, 1982
#4188249 - 10/30/15 04:04 AM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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I agree. This is how the Europeans virtually colonized the whole planet. Looking for trade ( spices, precious metals etc) and profits from the 15th to the 20th centuries....Not for the beauty of discovery but for the beauty of profits.

#4188330 - 10/30/15 11:25 AM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: frinik22]  
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PanzerMeyer Online centaurian
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Originally Posted By: frinik22
I agree. This is how the Europeans virtually colonized the whole planet. Looking for trade ( spices, precious metals etc) and profits from the 15th to the 20th centuries....Not for the beauty of discovery but for the beauty of profits.


Well, at least Mars and the other planets we know about don't have any indigenous tribes so we don't have to worry about them getting wiped out. wink


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4188353 - 10/30/15 12:36 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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The main reason that the northern part of North America was colonized was actually for food. Codfish fed Europe for many generations and the Grand Banks were considered more valuable than any Spanish gold mine in S. Am.


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#4188439 - 10/30/15 03:01 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted By: Raw Kryptonite

That doesn't diminish it, there are a lot less risky ways to make a buck.


Which is why it's going to happen at a snail's pace if at all. Why take such huge risks when you can make it more reliably here?

Earth orbit is easy. Close, safe, cheap. Moon? Mars? Beyond? Not so much.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4188492 - 10/30/15 04:19 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Originally Posted By: Raw Kryptonite

That doesn't diminish it, there are a lot less risky ways to make a buck.


Which is why it's going to happen at a snail's pace if at all. Why take such huge risks when you can make it more reliably here?

Earth orbit is easy. Close, safe, cheap. Moon? Mars? Beyond? Not so much.



Earth orbit is far from easy. Getting to and from Earth orbit are the hardest and most expensive things about spaceflight. As Robert Heinlein wrote "Once you're in orbit, you're halfway to anywhere."


“Together, let us take up the challenge to reawaken America's religious and moral heart, recognizing that a deep and abiding faith in God is the rock upon which this great Nation was founded.” - Ronald Reagan, May 4, 1982
#4188549 - 10/30/15 05:44 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted By: frinik22
I agree. This is how the Europeans virtually colonized the whole planet. Looking for trade ( spices, precious metals etc) and profits from the 15th to the 20th centuries....Not for the beauty of discovery but for the beauty of profits.


Well, at least Mars and the other planets we know about don't have any indigenous tribes so we don't have to worry about them getting wiped out. wink


And that ignorance will lead to your DOOM, earthling!

abducted

#4188588 - 10/30/15 06:32 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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Hmmm, no mention by the Russians about getting the men back once they're there.

shedevil


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#4188603 - 10/30/15 06:47 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted By: U-96
Have they said whether they intend to bring their humans back? Getting them there is relatively easy biggrin


The Russians plan on hiring Matt Damon for the mission. He can take care of himself.


The US government will still spend ridiculous amounts of money and time to rescue him.


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#4188635 - 10/30/15 07:28 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted By: F4UDash4
Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Originally Posted By: Raw Kryptonite

That doesn't diminish it, there are a lot less risky ways to make a buck.


Which is why it's going to happen at a snail's pace if at all. Why take such huge risks when you can make it more reliably here?

Earth orbit is easy. Close, safe, cheap. Moon? Mars? Beyond? Not so much.



Earth orbit is far from easy. Getting to and from Earth orbit are the hardest and most expensive things about spaceflight. As Robert Heinlein wrote "Once you're in orbit, you're halfway to anywhere."



Earth orbit has: Van Allen belt radiation shielding, emergency return to Earth in an hour, easy access to resupply of any stores, instant comms, no need for massive payload dedicated to fuel, psychological support for astronauts being able to see it out the window.

Getting to Earth orbit in an orbital vehicle is far simpler than getting a vehicle that can go to Mars, land, and then return to Earth into Earth orbit. It's greater than the difference between packing your 20 ft boat for a day of fishing and packing it to sail around the world by the equator, without hugging the coastline.

Sure, if you want to spend unlimited amounts of money it's feasible (as far as we know), but since everyone wants to do it super-cheap (under $100 billion is super cheap for a project of that magnitude) it's really not.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4188908 - 10/31/15 12:10 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master


Sure, if you want to spend unlimited amounts of money it's feasible (as far as we know), but since everyone wants to do it super-cheap (under $100 billion is super cheap for a project of that magnitude) it's really not.




The cost equation is undergoing a huge transformation.

"If one can figure out how to effectively reuse rockets just like airplanes, the cost of access to space will be reduced by as much as a factor of a hundred. A fully reusable vehicle has never been done before. That really is the fundamental breakthrough needed to revolutionize access to space." - Elon Musk


“Together, let us take up the challenge to reawaken America's religious and moral heart, recognizing that a deep and abiding faith in God is the rock upon which this great Nation was founded.” - Ronald Reagan, May 4, 1982
#4189006 - 10/31/15 05:20 PM Re: Russia just announced that it's sending humans to the moon [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Originally Posted By: F4UDash4
Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Originally Posted By: Raw Kryptonite

That doesn't diminish it, there are a lot less risky ways to make a buck.


Which is why it's going to happen at a snail's pace if at all. Why take such huge risks when you can make it more reliably here?

Earth orbit is easy. Close, safe, cheap. Moon? Mars? Beyond? Not so much.



Earth orbit is far from easy. Getting to and from Earth orbit are the hardest and most expensive things about spaceflight. As Robert Heinlein wrote "Once you're in orbit, you're halfway to anywhere."



Earth orbit has: Van Allen belt radiation shielding, emergency return to Earth in an hour, easy access to resupply of any stores, instant comms, no need for massive payload dedicated to fuel, psychological support for astronauts being able to see it out the window.

Getting to Earth orbit in an orbital vehicle is far simpler than getting a vehicle that can go to Mars, land, and then return to Earth into Earth orbit. It's greater than the difference between packing your 20 ft boat for a day of fishing and packing it to sail around the world by the equator, without hugging the coastline.

Sure, if you want to spend unlimited amounts of money it's feasible (as far as we know), but since everyone wants to do it super-cheap (under $100 billion is super cheap for a project of that magnitude) it's really not.




The Jedi Master


Getting a payload to orbit takes however much fuel the booster needs. Basically, you're wasting something like 99% of the total mass just to reach LEO. That's like having a trucking company go to the 7-11 and pick up a soda for you. Getting the payload to where it needs to go once it's in LEO requires a couple 5-gallon gas cans strapped on the outside, and inertia does the rest. If we ever get a space elevator built, the cost to LEO drops to a small percentage of what it is now, even figuring in the cost of building the elevator.

Safety can't be the primary criterion in any kind of exploration. People die all the time while flying, sailing, playing sports, having sex, whatever. Considering the way we get things into orbit, I'd say the space program as a whole has an exemplary safety record. The same goes for psychological issues; if we keep looking for reasons not to go as opposed to just going and dealing with non-technical problems as they come up, we're going to be earthbound forever. Sailors of old crossed the oceans on months-long voyages without knowing what was on the other end, and even when they were sure they'd fall off the earth if they went too far they still went. They thought there were monsters that would destroy their ships and devour them, and they still went. That can't have been much easier, psychologically speaking, than knowing you're 20 million miles from earth with no hope of rescue if something goes seriously wrong. Wallowing toward the Normandy coastline on June 6 1944 in landing craft had to have been pretty psychologically traumatic, yet people did it and generally turned out OK if they lived through the war.

CG2015's thread on our turning into wimps was right, but not because our troops don't wear steel armor and swing swords. Rather, because we as a people in general worship absolute 100% safety to the point where if we can't be guaranteed of it we won't do something. It's pretty sad, really. Maybe in order to run for office in this country you should have to be an extreme athlete or someone who risks his life on a regular basis for no other reason than getting a thrill.


Phil

"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils."
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