Wow, advice on how to deal with women. Even women admit it can't be given - but some man here thinks he's got it down, well where's that Rosetta Stone?

Man I really seriously feel sorry for guys still trying to analyze women. I guess I was just lucky and got the right one from the get go. It's pretty simple and it doesn't need to be analyzed. Listen to them, look a woman in the eyes during conversation, and never ever put her down in any way shape or form. My wife didn't even like me at first. And still to this day, I live by the above rules. There isn't a man or a wallet than can take her away from me. I trust her completely, and more importantly she trusts me completely.

I knew a girl who would have one just by rubbing her shoulders and neck.

I couldn't pass this one up so sorry.

Mechanus, also known as Kontakt5, also known as DevilM.

When's the next identity change?

I've thought the same, but concluded the style of disertaions were too different. I could be wrong though.

I'm sure all long-term relationships have unique reasons for success (is the divorce rate still 50%?).

My wife of almost 28 years knows I never really grew up, and while my immaturity sometimes stresses our marriage, we try to make the most of it.

For example, only 'old men' sit at home on Saturday afternoons watching college football, drinking beer and eating pizza. I still want to drive to the mall and browse Spencer Gifts, check out the music stores (the few remaining) and just do stuff with her (nothing beats a rock concert, although symphonies are also enjoyable). I'd still be taking her roller skating if we could, I just don't know of any rinks that do '70s/'80s.

"Being with you makes me feel like I'm still 20!" I take that as either a compliment or a putdown (depending on context). I just try to make the most of the positives and she responds to it (like recently wanting to date her like we were still courting teenagers).

I've never felt as comfortable or as secure about us and our future, yet I've never worked so hard to not be complacent. Maybe that's a contradiction, or I'm freaking a little because it's going SO well (calm before the storm?).

After having 2 wives, ( one of 12 yrs and the other 19 yrs and counting) I still dont understand women ! They sometimes act with the wisdom of the ages and at other times with out any responsibility at all.

Chicks, man. Why waste the energy trying to understand them. From what I'm told they don't understand us either. So what.

So that's what I've been saying over and over again. A lot of men think that way. If that's the way you think, then of course you'll never get beyond that. If you don't want to, fine. But if you want to understand more, then you have to approach it with a new set of eyes. And this what's hard to get men to realize, they refuse to believe it. They refuse to believe that women are capable of really enjoying men sexually and sensually. If this is what we should believe, then it's like going out on the football field knowing already we've lost. We may as well forfeit, because that's what's going to happen.

Men these days are taught how to be gentlemen with them, how to get along with them, how to work with them (which usually means the women start holding the cards if the guys don't know anything more than this). But what they're not taught is how to turn women on. Parents don't usually do it, who else is going to do it? Women won't come out and tell you- they're not going to do that, and they're not usually going to admit it. If that's how it worked, then women aren't going to be selective and they'll give the game away to any male. What turns them on are guys who know already- that's why the guys who 'don't get it' get stuck in this mindset that it can't be done, because the results they get confirm this.

Women seem mysterious because of course we know what is attractive immediately about them- their faces and their bodies, what they like about us seems like a mystery. Except I've explained this I hope enough, but it's like a refusal to believe it.

Do men's looks matter? They do to some extent- looks will get you noticed and get you through the door. So, the more good looking you are, the more leeway with mistakes you can make, but looks will not compensate for a lack of confidence, comfort around women, attitude, your charisma your sense of self worth. So there are good looking guys who eventually wind up being the 'girlfriend' in the relationship, and the women they date kind of run the show, and the girls have the option of staying or leaving when they want to. The girls might even start letting themselves go, knowing that they good looking guy is a bit whipped.

I think it is hilarious that some of you really think you have women and what they want all figured out. At 71 I can tell you I have been there done that and you will never, ever know what is on her mind at any given time. As for following her clues I can say, as I look back, that I missed so many clues that I could put them end to end and they might make it China.

Mechanus,

You are obsessed and preoccupied with women, and in particular towards a very narrow perspective of dating them in a game of one-upmanship and not much else.

That's all you ever seem to talk about, if you ever bothered posting. And when you do post, you start psycho-analyzing the most microscopic nuance of human interaction right down to the last pubic hair with verbosity that span several pages of tortured ramblings.

I don't pretend to understand what kind of life tribulations got you in this frame of mind and I don't particularly want to understand either. I'm just telling you matter of factly how you are perceived here on this forum.

You strike me as someone who is trying to overcompensate for something. I do not hold that against you. We all have our own ways of dealing with the world. Whatever works for you, is all good and more power to you if that is what makes you happy.

By your own self-admissions, you have severe problems with intimacy at establishing or maintaining conventional relationships with females. And yet, you continue to lecture people here, including some of our senior (by age) members how we all seem to be missing the plot when it comes to females.

Mate, many of these guys are way older than you. They've been around the block many times over with families of their own and long successful marriages under their belt.

Did you understand what OG meant when he said that if he wanted financial advice he would go to someone who knows how to make a profit ? Are you married ? Do you know what it takes to make a marriage and a family work ?

My dad used to tell me to never tell grandma how to suck eggs. She's been at it lomger than any of us and got it down to an art.

I don't think we have any definitive answers amongst us but we have our own ways of going about it under the circumstances and environment unique to each of us.

I'm 46. I have dated my fair share of women. Now married in a beautiful partnership to a woman that I adore and who return the affection in kind. And she knows how to take care of a family. But I never needed to work as hard as you seem to think is necessary just to be interesting to a woman or to anyone for that matter. It's probably because I always prefer to be myself when I deal with people, male or female. I don't need to put on a persona. If I needed to go all that just to entice someone, I find it too tiring. There are enough demands to my time and life.

Not to say you are wrong but the point you seem to miss is that you seem unable to gracefully admit that everything you believe and say is not gold-plated and that other people have other opinions.

That's all fine and good.

So there are people who live in cities, there are people in the country, there are people who like sports, people who don't. Different strokes for different folks.

I'm not advocating that people do anything- I'm not saying what you should do. Some people are fine when they find one person to settle down with within certain parameters and that's what they're going to do for their entire life. Other people do other things.

So nothing I say should be a pronouncement that what other people do is right or wrong- unlike some people who have a problem with what other people watch on TV or whatnot. Doesn't affect them, but bothers them anyway.

But I am describing things that can be demonstrated that might be of interest for some people who have curiosity. Things like when I go out and meet a date at a bar, and when we're laughing and having a good time, all of a sudden all these other women in the bar will start to come over to us and try to wedge themselves in between us and try to get attention. Women know this and they get attracted because of that. I remember one of the first things that I found out accidently, when I found something quite funny about the girl I was out with, and I started laughing at her, that actually made her more attracted. When you kind of laugh at girls playfully instead of put them down or criticize them or judge them or chase or over pursue them or worship them, it's a different effect- one that turns them on. It makes them wonder about the guy does that.

Think of them of crazy or don't believe it- but I'm saying what turns them on can be quite different than what a lot of males are used to thinking of. I did not choose these girls to act like that- I'm only reporting what happens.

Man, everyone here has so many posts...having less than a hundred, I pondered whether to post at all, which would in turn explain my low post count, lol.

I just thought I'd share my experiences on the matter. I've too have used a dating coach (it's suddenly feeling like what I imagine AA is like in here) and have read up a lot of material on "the game". Growing up in a strict household and being an engineer, I felt like I was socially retarded and thought I needed the help. I picked the most ethical dating coach I could find, and am still friends with the guy.

Now, there are countless tricks, techniques, and gimmicks that are taught, but it all boils down to being a fun and confident guy who is capable to showing interest. Now for reasons that are theorized to date back to our hunter-gatherer days that I will not go into, most women are extremely social compared to men. They can subtly read body language, intonation, and other social cues probably around 2 to 3 times better than men, all subconsciously. Meaning they can sniff out insecurity and pretending pretty easily. That's where a lot of so called "pickup artists" fail: because their pretending to be a suave confident man while seeking to validate themselves through gaining a woman's affection. Eventually they're going to screw up and the house of cards comes tumbling down. And if a woman senses something is off, she will throw test after test at you, sometimes subconsciously, to see if you are real deal.

The best trick to appear to be a suave, confident man is, wait for it, to actually be one. Someone who talks to a woman because he genuinely is interested in her and isn't afraid to voice that interest. That's all "the game" is, it's speaking the language of attraction. Whether you want to just have some fun or a lasting relationship, you need to speak the language to work it out.

BTW, my dating coach only had one rule regarding ethics: "Leave them better than you found them." You'd be surprised how treating other people as, well, people gets the best out of them.

Stumbled on this gem on my own months ago.

The accounts I related in my first post were from a time when I was confident and had a very positive outlook in life. Women(complete strangers) just approached me.

That stopped happening when I realized the truth that life is meaningless and is not worth the effort. So I'm walking around with this attitude, "waiting to die". And lo and behold, ever since that time, I wasn't approached by a single woman.

Yes. The first thing I do is start making it known that I'm not just a friend. This is done through playful, flirty behavior. Because first impressions are strong- if their first impression of you is that you're a friend, you get friend zoned. If their first impression is that of a guy who flirts, they think 'Oh, this is a guy is not a friend, he's on a different track.' And it's up to them to take it or leave it- but even if they're not interested at that time, if done right and doesn't come off weird, creepy, stalkerish, clumsy, and so on, they're still impressed by the bold behavior. And it may set up a future date if they have a boyfriend and it doesn't work out later.


You still have to close the deal, though. If you just being suave and confident, but don't make attempts to a conclusion, the girl will lose interest. You can't just leave them on the hook, keep doing nothing but being suave. It becomes more like a movie that drags on without a climax. A movie that could have ended much sooner.


Attraction has a window- so this what I keep meaning to say, when that window has opened, then you have to start moving, or else you just leave the girl on the hook. Then she might start wondering if the guy is all talk or all game but no action. Even as I was practicing, this was still in earlier failures when I got them interested, I would be confident and smooth, but I didn't actually do anything more than that- because it still required that last move that I wasn't doing. So it requires some boldness to go from smooth and confident to making your intentions known or doing something which makes the transition from fun and flirting to more. Or you may get some girls who make the first move, but generally, they want the guy to make the first move.

Well, what you're describing follows what's called the 7-5-7 framework: 7 seconds for a first impression, 5 minutes of conversation to establish the immediate relationship dynamic, and then the next 7 minutes to reinforce that dynamic. Not Jedi mind trick stuff, pretty much the staple of any first meeting, personal or business-wise.

Look, I fully agree with your notion to "close the deal". Yes, you have to vary your energy level, voice, what you say, etc to get a woman to that decision point where she'll have to decide if she wants to commit to anything further, be it a date, coffee, whatever. But it's just mimicking what a suave and confident guy would do. You want her number? Ask for it. If you have conveyed your interest correctly and she likes you, the deal is closed. My closer? Most of the time it's "Hey, I think you're pretty cool and I was wondering if you'd like to grab a cup of coffee sometime?" Lame? Sure, but it's worked more often than I care to admit.

So, in regards to your OP statement, I do agree with your notion that attraction has a window. It's really that you have a certain window for each certain phase: to turn the novelty of the first meeting to intrigue and comfort, and then finally enough attraction to finally "close the deal" as you say. It's all part of speaking the language.

I think what's prompting the other posters in this thread take issue with you is with what seems to be your motivation behind all this: granted, I've just skimmed this thread, but it seems that you've concluded that women are manipulative, you're trying to return the favor, and every time you succeed you're making another notch on belt. In pick up artist speak, you're lacking in "inner game"; at the end of the day, you're still deriving validation from their acceptance or rejection and something you do will eventually reek of that desperation. You talk as if women are some kind of combination safe where the right sequence will open, well, use your imagination. In female parlance, you're trying too hard.

Not that it should matter too much, but my advice? Stop trying to solve the science of attraction as if it's some kind of calculus problem. Build social skills to where you're genuinely cool and fun to hang out with. I used my new found social skills to make more friends. Also try to ground your methods: I've found that if you discuss your methods with you female friends (yes, make lots of those) and they take offense, you're probably doing something wrong.

PS: Boldness alone usually isn't enough to impress anyone. As my coach used to say: "Two steps forward, one step back, repeat." It lets them chase a little too and gives you an opportunity to gauge their interest level. Remember, they have a say in this too

I've said all along there's no magic tricks involved. But from a psychological view, there may be things that are hard wired, or strong impressions that society has made on people. Advertisers know this- they know that colors in package design, or even the price of things impact people's perception of its worth. And they have it broken down to things that make human behavior look quite deterministic. And they can show things on image scans of the brain of how the unconscious mind is operating.

Whatever the sexes do, I'm not making a judgment on it- I'm only saying that if people think that what I am talking about is manipulative, then both sexes are manipulative. Anything we do- getting dressed up, getting a ready for the date, even the way we behave- it's not necessarily how we are all the time, it's something that everyone does. It's just that it was coming out here that people think that I am employing manipulative tactics. It is what it is- there's primitive things that go on that people respond to, there's social programming as well, so if it's manipulative, it's what both sexes respond to. In other words, smooth talking is on the same level as what females do to work the game. It is what it is.

And I say when you accept things for what they are, rather than what we often think they should be, then things become much, much easier. In dating, the world opens up much differently. And a lot of what I'm explaining is very predictable, again like how females will be attracted to males who display certain body language and already have other women starting to notice, it's like a magnet.

I am also explaining not just how to interact with women, but how to start the interaction where the females begin to notice first and initiate contact. There's nothing wrong with it, and they often like to. Because again, the way they can behave is like cats. They come around and close when they're interested. But if you charge the cat when it approaches, it bolts. So it's a matter of enticing them and letting them feel the freedom to come and go when they are comfortable, like a cat. Do that, and they come around if they're really interested.

But there are guys who don't believe it, and they won't believe me when I say this. The fact of the matter is that I am aware of familiar behavior that I see, and that's perhaps what comes off wrong to people- well, look at it this way. After awhile, you can't help but notice. When you start seeing the same behavior again and again, it's impossible not to notice and remember. On top of that, once you see it happen again and again, it's what I said before- repetition is the parent of skill, you get exposed to it enough times, you start to be able to confidently read behavior and predict it. And your confidence grows more, because you've seen it before, and you're confident about what the females are doing. You get more comfortable and more confident, and it gets difficult to talk about it as if were all just random and mysterious. So, if it sounds calculating, it's because it does get a lot less mysterious and it's difficult not to talk about it in terms that don't sound 'artificial'. People actually start behaving like an experiment that you can reproduce results.

It's not so hard for males to accept when you turn it around- a good looking girl enters the room with certain body language and attitude, and a lot of males predictably take notice. Sure. Well, it can work the other way too with women taking notice- this is what's I'm explaining. The difficult part is getting males to believe that. There really is a resistance to it.

From several lectures back, on page 8.

This thread reminds me of butterflies for some reason.......