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#4170665 - 09/18/15 08:47 PM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: bogusheadbox]  
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Originally Posted By: bogusheadbox
Originally Posted By: scrim
...


Btw, what's this mean? "Synthetic runway display on HUD"


Synthetic vision is artificial terrain overlay on HUD. I am sure not as fancy as this, but here is what it can do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9N_PFtBUOA




Well, why not?
Consider this- probably the real one uses a database of the terrain to overprint behind the HUD data.
Well, the terrain database for the game is exactly all it needs.

If anything it's hard to make it as slightly imperfect as the real one. Probably is actually pixel perfect. biggrin


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#4170701 - 09/18/15 10:16 PM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: komemiute]  
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Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere.

For those that cannot get enough of the Mirage, I came across the following that may be of interest. Think Top Gun in French, (English subtitles available), flying the Mirage.

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndYeuZ10Ppo

#4170705 - 09/18/15 10:34 PM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Moved_on]  
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Wow, that was worthy of a first post! biggrin

Originally Posted By: BeeDeeBee
Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere.

For those that cannot get enough of the Mirage, I came across the following that may be of interest. Think Top Gun in French, (English subtitles available), flying the Mirage.

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndYeuZ10Ppo


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#4170716 - 09/18/15 11:05 PM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: nirvi]  
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Originally Posted By: nirvi
Now available for pre-purchase, release in december 2015
http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/shop/modules/mirage2000c/


Friggin' Brilliant.


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#4170792 - 09/19/15 04:16 AM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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I agree!!! Awesome video that sold me instantly!

#4171019 - 09/20/15 12:37 AM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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A nice looking aircraft no doubt. The length of time it has taken to get to this stage and it's still going to be released in beta?
What is with betas and dcs? Are folk still falling for this line? $60 for a product that may never be finished? I don't get it.
It's ironic that folk are so desperate for new stuff in dcs that they'll pay through the nose for a beta which is killing the game for most folk. Trust is disappearing fast. 1.5 was supposed to be released in September, now it's just for the open beta. How many folk can say "told you so". Quite a few


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4171027 - 09/20/15 01:05 AM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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The whole DCS line is still in beta. Maybe the final "release" will start with DCS World 2.0, but we'll know when it comes 'round.


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#4171052 - 09/20/15 03:39 AM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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The word "beta" becomes meaningless in a world where almost all software/firmware is delivered incomplete and buggy, and almost never finished before being abandoned. For me, the DCS "beta" releases are better than the final releases of every other flight sim I have ever owned and I own quite a few of them from Jane's Fighters Anthology and later. The UH-1, Mi-8, MiG-21bis are modeled in DCS in ways that have never been achieved in any other sim before. The MiG-15 and F-86 are pretty much that same standard. Despite all the WW2 sims I have played and enjoyed (Aces High being my all time favorite for the detailed/accurate flight modeling), I enjoy the DCS P-51, Fw-190, and Bf109 more than any of them.

RAZBAM Mirage 2000C -> already pre-ordered smile

Not everyone has become bitter toward DCS from all the delays and changes in plans.


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#4171069 - 09/20/15 06:08 AM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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Better late than never.

And as for beta? I'd rather fly the aircraft sooner in beta than not at all and wait for the final product.

While I'm on cliches - never look a gifthorse in the mouth.

If you're not happy with DCS, just hit on the next developer that's making combat flight sims.... oh wait...

#4171084 - 09/20/15 09:11 AM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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I also think that the word "beta" in all the DCS planes can be a bit misleading.
Just think about it ... they can all also all be released as "final" and every patch to them would than be 1.01, 1.02, etc. an no one would say "oh man they are still in beta YEARS after the release!"

So I'm with streakeagle on this. Personally I don't give a **** if they call it beta or not as with nearly all simulations nowadays it's NEVER final and thats good! Just look at PCars. New patch version now released is 4.0.


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#4171096 - 09/20/15 10:28 AM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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The issue with DCS Betas is that some developers have become notorious for using it as an excuse to never finish their product. BST still hasn't implemented engine heat for the Huey, the Sabre still lacks emergency gear release and has the thrust of a brick (though I strongly suspect this is an issue of nationalistic bias rather than a Beta issue), and the Mi-8 should by all rights be called an Alpha. VEAO and Aviodev have both released simple trainers that after several months still lack an AFM, etc. So no, I disagree. The fact that Betas have become synonymous with "we're in need of charity. We'll give you a half finished module, but don't go holding us accountable or we'll rage quit basic PR" is a real issue at this point.

However, as I've said regarding Razbam: This time it's a 4th generation multi-role fighter jet. That, unlike antique first generation fighters, transport helos and mere trainers is something I full expect to see released as Betas and remain that for a few months. It's called for, and as curtesy made up for with a decent discount. Further, since Razbam's already a very well established dev in the flight sim business (they've released more modules by themselves for FSX than exists in DCS) so I don't feel uncomfortable with them coming through on their Mirage development for DCS.

#4171100 - 09/20/15 10:51 AM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: scrim]  
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Originally Posted By: scrim
The issue with DCS Betas is that some developers have become notorious for using it as an excuse to never finish their product. ....


I agree with you. However there's absolutely no competition for what DCS and third party developers are offering. Even the third party developers are sticking with their own airframes so there's no real competition between them either.

And we accept it exactly because there's nobody else out there doing what we simmers want them to do.

So it comes down to choice really. Don't buy the betas if you feel strongly enough about it all or buy it and enjoy your product. I'm with the latter crowd. Like i said before, having even a beta plane to experience is better than flying nothing.

#4171109 - 09/20/15 11:32 AM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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It looks gorgeous, and I'm very excited to fly it soon.

However, I don't trust razbam (yet), so no pre-purchase. I'll use beta testers impressions (one I know is expert on the 2k) to see if I finally buy it. If it's reported as great (ie equal or better than the 21), it may become my first full price DCS purchase.

#4171113 - 09/20/15 12:03 PM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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My issue with the Mirage 2000 is it doesn't really excite me, although it is a cool and interesting jet. Honestly, I'm not excited by the current list of announced airframes. Other than the F/A-18 I'm only looking forward to the F-14. Still, I'm hoping that a few of my historical sim favorites, like the Longbow, Strike Eagle, Harrier, and Tornado, show up some time in the not too distant future.

I will say, as an owner of a couple Razbam FSX planes, they know how to make planes well. Yet, I would guess developing an airplane for a ga sim is a bit different than developing for a combat sim. We'll see how the Mirage turns out.

--T


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#4171138 - 09/20/15 01:43 PM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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LOL... you guys are confusing "patches" with betas. A beta is basically an unfinished product. A "patch" is released to fix bugs found after release.

Just because there are no other developers making new sims, that doesn't mean an active developer can do whatever they want... release an unfinished product then leave it as they go do something else.... promise something and customers are still waiting 4+ years down the line....

While it's fine to support a "beta" product, I've stopped doing it because it has now become the norm. I purchased A-10C and BS2 at beta phases, but I've decided to put my money on finished products now rather than continue funding "betas." I still do support beta and even alpha games, but that'll depend on developer and game genre.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate on DCS for the PRODUCTS they are offering, I am simply displeased by the way they are going about it. I would love to one day eat my words and join you guys in the skies over Nevada but so far, Korea, Balkans, and Israel seems like my skies-of-choice. biggrin

As for the Mirage itself, well, I'm finding it very hard to resist it. I've watched so many documentaries and the Mirage was in a lot of them so I really like this aircraft. If the DCS World release gives significant changes, I just might revisit it with the new multi-role fighter.

Anybody got info about its ground radar?

Then again, even the F-18 or the F-14 release would only really tempt me... I don't like flying aircraft I like but with nothing to do ala FSX.


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#4171159 - 09/20/15 03:12 PM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: WynnTTr]  
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Originally Posted By: WynnTTr
Better late than never.

And as for beta? I'd rather fly the aircraft sooner in beta than not at all and wait for the final product.

While I'm on cliches - never look a gifthorse in the mouth.

If you're not happy with DCS, just hit on the next developer that's making combat flight sims.... oh wait...

Thanks for your money, we'll finish it when we finish it, stop complaining and move on. Seems about right.

Originally Posted By: streakeagle
The word "beta" becomes meaningless in a world where almost all software/firmware is delivered incomplete and buggy, and almost never finished before being abandoned. For me, the DCS "beta" releases are better than the final releases of every other flight sim I have ever owned and I own quite a few of them from Jane's Fighters Anthology and later. The UH-1, Mi-8, MiG-21bis are modeled in DCS in ways that have never been achieved in any other sim before. The MiG-15 and F-86 are pretty much that same standard. Despite all the WW2 sims I have played and enjoyed (Aces High being my all time favorite for the detailed/accurate flight modeling), I enjoy the DCS P-51, Fw-190, and Bf109 more than any of them.

RAZBAM Mirage 2000C -> already pre-ordered smile

Not everyone has become bitter toward DCS from all the delays and changes in plans.

The phrase "study sim" becomes meaningless in a world where nothing is complete. How can one study that which is not finished?
It's not a case of being bitter. It's a case of being angry. ED and it's 3rd parties have taken money for unfinished products and moved onto new products with no sign that their old, unfinished products, are being worked on and finalized. When one talks about aircraft there is no continuous development. These historic aircraft are not still in development. They were finished and in some cases out of production. There is a finish line that is clearly defined. All the developers need to do is copy. If one has the data, and were told they do, it shouldn't be hard to actually finish and yet it appears it is too hard to finish, either that or...
Were told that these development studios are small, it's a constant argument, and yet they say that while they are working on new products they still dedicate some of their team towards working on the old products? it really doesn't add up to me.
Anyway, good luck Razbam, I hope you'll buck the trend. I'll wait and see. If you can actually finish the Mirage maybe i'll purchase it and buy into you're next "beta" release. Until then...


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4171245 - 09/20/15 07:58 PM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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I think, but I've been wrong before on a number of things, that the main problem with completing modules is tightly knitted in the DCD world 2 release.

It's not just a game changer, but a completely reworked platform.

I'm ready to bet that after six months DCS World 2 is "stable" many will eventually be completed.

Nobody really likes leaving things hanging, and my guess is they* know that the situation is dire.

Less and less people will buy their* beta release modules because previous ones are still in beta. Which makes sense from a customer point of view.

But if as a programmer my hard work is going to be made useless by the release of DCS World 2 well I rather bring a new module to beta stage rather than staying home twisting my thumbs.

As a person involved in the matter laterally I can understand both sides.
Hope this eases some mids even though I got my doubts.

* I mean here 3rd party developers...

Last edited by komemiute; 09/20/15 08:03 PM. Reason: Zpellink

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Ice

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MigBuster

"What people like and what critics praise are rarely the same thing. 'Critic' is just another one of those unnecessary, overpaid, parasitic jobs that the human race has churned out so that clever slackers won't have to actually get a real job and possibly soil their hands."
Sauron
#4171267 - 09/20/15 09:38 PM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Prowler1111]  
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Yep... like I said, I would LOVE to look like an idiot and DCS proves they know what they're doing but until that day comes.... well, I'm not holding my breath.

I'm off to dream about carrier ops now with the F-18 and F-14... biggrin


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#4171268 - 09/20/15 09:43 PM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted By: Johnny_Redd
Thanks for your money, we'll finish it when we finish it, stop complaining and move on. Seems about right.


The phrase "study sim" becomes meaningless in a world where nothing is complete. How can one study that which is not finished?
....


Exactly right.

It sucks but like I said.. you don't like it, just hit on the next combat flight sim developer. Name me another that's doing what they're doing and faster. Go on.

In the absence of any competition they can do whatever they like. You either accept it or grumble on forums.

Me, I'd rather enjoy what I have. I don't take the angry perspective cos it'll give me grey hairs and unnecessary stress for what's meant to be entertainment time. Instead I'd rather just enjoy the experience of flight simming in aircraft I'll never touch in real life.

You go right ahead and keep being angry and flying nothing. I won't stop you cos it's nothing off my back.

When you start up your own combat sim development house to compete with DCS then it'll affect me directly and if you do a great job, I'll be more than happy to throw money at you.

Last edited by WynnTTr; 09/20/15 10:02 PM.
#4171269 - 09/20/15 09:51 PM Re: RAZBAM M2000C DCS almost there, in fact, it will be available for pre order, pretty soon! [Re: komemiute]  
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Originally Posted By: komemiute
I think, but I've been wrong before on a number of things, that the main problem with completing modules is tightly knitted in the DCD world 2 release.


You don't need to wait for new engine to fix bugs like typos in mission descriptions, mismatched waypoint numbers etc. There are bugs that can be fixed in five minutes. But they simple don't give a damn. And that's the worst part of it, because that means so there is no prospect of this getting any better.

Last edited by Slider; 09/20/15 09:58 PM.
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