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#4162922 - 08/30/15 02:51 AM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: Toxin_1]  
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SharpeXB Offline
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Originally Posted By: Toxin_1
Not WWII, but the Kickstarter for CAP2 is trying to meet exactly this type of flightsim/fun game of old.
CAP2 Kickstarter

Those people should just make a 3rd party Harrier for DCS. It would be better and easier.


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#4162965 - 08/30/15 06:36 AM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: SharpeXB]  
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: Toxin_1
Not WWII, but the Kickstarter for CAP2 is trying to meet exactly this type of flightsim/fun game of old.
CAP2 Kickstarter

Those people should just make a 3rd party Harrier for DCS. It would be better and easier.


That's not what they are aiming for. The fidelity seems to be FC3 standard with clickable pit and the best part is: They are trying to do a dynamic campaign! You won't see this for DCS for a loooong time I guess ...


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#4163039 - 08/30/15 03:01 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: Dondy]  
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SharpeXB Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dondy
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: Toxin_1
Not WWII, but the Kickstarter for CAP2 is trying to meet exactly this type of flightsim/fun game of old.
CAP2 Kickstarter

Those people should just make a 3rd party Harrier for DCS. It would be better and easier.


That's not what they are aiming for. The fidelity seems to be FC3 standard with clickable pit and the best part is: They are trying to do a dynamic campaign! You won't see this for DCS for a loooong time I guess ...

So. Make a dynamic campaign for DCS. There are third parties make campaigns for DCS. They shouldn't start from scratch when they don't have to. Making an aircraft like this Harrier with a clickable pit is a huge undertaking. Why do that and invent a whole game engine and map when that's already been done? Otherwise the project does look cool. But the best it could hope for is to duplicate a game that's already there which they can just add on to. ED is already making a Strait of Hormuz map too!

Last edited by SharpeXB; 08/30/15 03:04 PM.

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#4163044 - 08/30/15 03:16 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: SharpeXB]  
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Johnny_Redd Offline
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: Dondy
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: Toxin_1
Not WWII, but the Kickstarter for CAP2 is trying to meet exactly this type of flightsim/fun game of old.
CAP2 Kickstarter

Those people should just make a 3rd party Harrier for DCS. It would be better and easier.


That's not what they are aiming for. The fidelity seems to be FC3 standard with clickable pit and the best part is: They are trying to do a dynamic campaign! You won't see this for DCS for a loooong time I guess ...

So. Make a dynamic campaign for DCS. There are third parties make campaigns for DCS. They shouldn't start from scratch when they don't have to. Making an aircraft like this Harrier with a clickable pit is a huge undertaking. Why do that and invent a whole game engine and map when that's already been done? Otherwise the project does look cool. But the best it could hope for is to duplicate a game that's already there which they can just add on to. ED is already making a Strait of Hormuz map too!

Why do anything then? Why not just wait until somebody else makes a harrier for DCS.
Why not just leave all flight sim advances to the current crop of developers?
I for one welcome more and more developers into the flight sim genre. The current crop of developers are severely lacking in my opinion. It takes an age for anything to be developed for DCS due to the delay in EDGE among other things. The very poor public relations that one gets from 1cgs/777 among the myriad of other things. I welcome competition in the genre. It's a good thing. It will make developers listen or fade away.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4163046 - 08/30/15 03:35 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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SharpeXB Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johnny_Redd
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: Dondy
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: Toxin_1
Not WWII, but the Kickstarter for CAP2 is trying to meet exactly this type of flightsim/fun game of old.
CAP2 Kickstarter

Those people should just make a 3rd party Harrier for DCS. It would be better and easier.


That's not what they are aiming for. The fidelity seems to be FC3 standard with clickable pit and the best part is: They are trying to do a dynamic campaign! You won't see this for DCS for a loooong time I guess ...

So. Make a dynamic campaign for DCS. There are third parties make campaigns for DCS. They shouldn't start from scratch when they don't have to. Making an aircraft like this Harrier with a clickable pit is a huge undertaking. Why do that and invent a whole game engine and map when that's already been done? Otherwise the project does look cool. But the best it could hope for is to duplicate a game that's already there which they can just add on to. ED is already making a Strait of Hormuz map too!

Why do anything then? Why not just wait until somebody else makes a harrier for DCS.
Why not just leave all flight sim advances to the current crop of developers?
I for one welcome more and more developers into the flight sim genre. The current crop of developers are severely lacking in my opinion. It takes an age for anything to be developed for DCS due to the delay in EDGE among other things. The very poor public relations that one gets from 1cgs/777 among the myriad of other things. I welcome competition in the genre. It's a good thing. It will make developers listen or fade away.

Oh absolutely. By all means I'd like to see more companies active in creating combat flight sims. Certainly!
But do something original that will stand out.


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#4163051 - 08/30/15 03:44 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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KodiakJac Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johnny_Redd

Why not just leave all flight sim advances to the current crop of developers?
I for one welcome more and more developers into the flight sim genre. The current crop of developers are severely lacking in my opinion. It takes an age for anything to be developed for DCS due to the delay in EDGE among other things. The very poor public relations that one gets from 1cgs/777 among the myriad of other things. I welcome competition in the genre. It's a good thing. It will make developers listen or fade away.


I agree. One of the arguments for support of BoS is "this is all we've got." I would like more options. A jet sim is not really my thing, but if it is released with a dynamic campaign I would buy it in a heart beat.

There seems to be "group think" with the current Russian flight sim developers. Both DCS and BoS are aircraft centric with very little "game" around them. It would be great to get some fresh blood from western countries into the mix of flight sim developers who are completely independent and not tied to the current Russian design philosophy. Building add-ons for DCS places you in a subordinate position to the Russian developers.


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#4163052 - 08/30/15 03:47 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: SharpeXB]  
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
But do something original that will stand out.


A dynamic campaign would stand out!


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#4163053 - 08/30/15 03:51 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: JimBobb]  
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Although not totally original
This is what Dondy said
"That's not what they are aiming for. The fidelity seems to be FC3 standard with clickable pit and the best part is: They are trying to do a dynamic campaign! You won't see this for DCS for a loooong time I guess ..."

The general consensus over on the DCS forums is that the folk want the high fidelity study sim that takes an age to release. A lot of folk want the FC3 level aircraft. I would love FC3 level aircraft. It would mean less development time, more aircraft, look how long its taken 3rd parties to release a study sim aircraft in DCS, there isn't one out of beta YET. More maps(less development time for aircraft) we all know only proven 3rd parties will get the map making tools.
It appears to me ED have abandoned the FC3 level aircraft which is a mistake in my opinion. CAP2 will fill a void
Edit
I looks, to me anyway, that with the current crop of trainer aircraft that ED is aiming for the military market. A study sim for military contracts. Less emphasis on the public consumer. Which is not a bad thing as business point of view.
An updated "strike fighters" would definitely fill a void

Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 08/30/15 04:05 PM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4163060 - 08/30/15 04:14 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: SharpeXB]  
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Oh absolutely. By all means I'd like to see more companies active in creating combat flight sims. Certainly!
But do something original that will stand out.


Unlike a rehash of a 2009 DX9 game engine marketed on a 2001 titles franchise with less features than either of the two and unlikely to ever see an upgrade into DX12 or virtual reality.

#4163069 - 08/30/15 04:38 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: JimBobb]  
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scrim Offline
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Apart from how they appear to be aiming at a different consumer group than solely the very hardcore flight simmers, I'll echo what others have said and say that if I was in the position of developing for flight sims, I'd really, really, really think twice about associating myself with Eagle Dynamics. An ancient engine, awful sim aspects, a single map for about 20 years, very long development schedules for even simple stuff, infamously bad at fixing bugs, shady interactions with 3rd party devs, etc.

Just one or two of those things and I'd be almost totally convinced that I'd be better off starting from scratch. Hopefully CAP2 will turn into an evolving series that actually makes campaigns fun again and gets us several modern planes as opposed to several years worth of waiting for just a legacy Hornet...

#4163072 - 08/30/15 04:48 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: JimBobb]  
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What makes DCS an ancient engine? it's about to go version 2 with the new EDGE engine.
What is so shady about the 3rd party content?

#4163077 - 08/30/15 05:18 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: dburne]  
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Originally Posted By: dburne

Based on the number of flight hardware peripherals still being offered to PC flight sim enthusiasts, I would have to conclude that flight sims are far from dead. When those guys start existing the business, then we know there is a problem.


Actually one can say that this new Space "sims" who are supporting this market. wink

But this guys are betting in Combat Flight Sim... erh Games, specifically WWII, specifically BoS and WT. smile

http://www.asian-games.com.tw/2015/JS-3601V/images/PaceWheel-140314.mp4

Quote:
Those people should just make a 3rd party Harrier for DCS. It would be better and easier.


And will result in another plane out of context... Unless one are interesting only in "sand box".



#4163081 - 08/30/15 05:30 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: bongodriver]  
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scrim Offline
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Originally Posted By: bongodriver
What makes DCS an ancient engine? it's about to go version 2 with the new EDGE engine.
What is so shady about the 3rd party content?


As much as I hope that DCS 1.5 will actually come out next month, they've said that 2.0 has been "around the corner, definitely coming this time" for several years now. Regarding 3rd party devs, I'm referring to things like DCS:WW2, the "you're taking too long with your L-39, we'll make it instead" and the ridiculously KGB-ish "oh dear, we've lost the paperwork making you a 3rd party developer. You can still go ahead with you F/A-18E of course. As a free mod that is."

#4163086 - 08/30/15 05:51 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: JimBobb]  
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From their Steam page:
(Emphasis added)
Quote:
Early Access Release

We’ve decided we’ll release CAP2 as an Early Access title. This will allow us to refine gameplay based on community feedback which has been invaluable so far.

Before releasing through Early Access we will run a KickStarter campaign. If successful this will ensure funding for CAP2 to completion without a penny from Early Access and also allow us to add extra features such as Multiplayer, VR support, satellite imagery and pro voice recordings.

If the KickStarter is unsuccessful then we still have the necessary funds for completion but the extra features will not be committed to without the required level of Early Access sales.

Multiplayer and VR support are two of our most requested features; we already have our Oculus DK2’s and are queuing patiently for HTC's Vive. We think CAP2 will be great in VR smile
Multiplayer will include game modes such as ‘Fleet vs Fleet’ where you’ll have the option of playing cooperatively against an AI fleet or forming teams. You’ll also be able to assist other players complete their campaigns.

We have a projected release date of September 25th (2015!)

We’ll be ramping up our update frequency as we approach release to keep everyone informed.


Based on the Kickstarter delivery dates listed for rewards, I'm concluding that the "release" mentioned above is the Early Access release.

From their Dev Blog, the engine is currently using DX9, but due to upgrade to DX11 in the coming months.

I think they are wise to spend less attention to switch-ology and more to gameplay. It still looks like the Kickstarter will fail, but that was for additional features. I wish them luck with getting the game out, as it looks promising, and they seem to have their heads screwed on right. As Jedi Master pointed out though, the pitiful Kickstarter (so far, at least) doesn't reflect well on their marketing person.

#4163089 - 08/30/15 06:06 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: scrim]  
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Originally Posted By: scrim
Originally Posted By: bongodriver
What makes DCS an ancient engine? it's about to go version 2 with the new EDGE engine.
What is so shady about the 3rd party content?


As much as I hope that DCS 1.5 will actually come out next month, they've said that 2.0 has been "around the corner, definitely coming this time" for several years now. Regarding 3rd party devs, I'm referring to things like DCS:WW2, the "you're taking too long with your L-39, we'll make it instead" and the ridiculously KGB-ish "oh dear, we've lost the paperwork making you a 3rd party developer. You can still go ahead with you F/A-18E of course. As a free mod that is."


Probably an over simplification of how things have transpired, they probably mentioned a version 2 is planned years ago but I highly doubt it's been round the corner for years, as usual I expect it's a symptom of the notoriously impatient consumer to claim so.
I get the impression some 3rd party developers have messed ED around just as much, either way there is a growing list of additional content for DCS and plenty of evidence of the existence of version 2.

#4163101 - 08/30/15 07:05 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Originally Posted By: Bucksnort
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
But do something original that will stand out.


A dynamic campaign would stand out!

Well there's nothing to stop anyone from making a dynamic campaign for DCS
Except $$$


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#4163105 - 08/30/15 07:25 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: CyBerkut]  
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Originally Posted By: CyBerkut
"This will allow us to refine gameplay based on community feedback which has been invaluable so far."

By "community feedback" do they mean a bunch of haters attacking them all over the web when they don't get every demand met?
The same sort of "feedback" that really helped Cliffs of Dover huh?

Or Star Ctizen?
"Cloud Imperium Games and Star Citizen have been fending off some vocal detractors the past couple months. From Derek Smart to impatient supporters, CIG has buckled down and fairly successfully defended the company, game, and development schedule from the recent criticism"

Buckled down and defended the company. Yeah I'll bet... "Community feedback" uh huh...

Hey I chipped in a donation. Hope they succeed.

Last edited by SharpeXB; 08/30/15 07:52 PM.

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#4163122 - 08/30/15 08:07 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: SharpeXB]  
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
By "community feedback" do they mean a bunch of haters attacking them all over the web when they don't get every demand met?
The same sort of "feedback" that really helped Cliffs of Dover huh?


So you are basically admitting Cliffs of Dover did not deserve to get so much community feedback? that cliffs was really killed by said feedback?

#4163139 - 08/30/15 09:18 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Originally Posted By: Bucksnort
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
But do something original that will stand out.


A dynamic campaign would stand out!


So something we are working on right now is a dynamic MP campaign. The Editor has the ability to set end parameters so on load, the next map based on criteria met or not met by the previous mission, will load. The next can also be generated by a parser that counted previous mission results. No its not SP, but could be designed to be played SP. You just need a server to run your mission and you connect to it, lock it and PW it, and whalla, you have a Dynamic SP campaign.

Its in early development, but we have proven its possible. Of course the ability to host straight from your own games GUI like in RoF would be ideal. I hope they add that back in.

#4163144 - 08/30/15 09:44 PM Re: Are flight sims dead? [Re: Hooves]  
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Originally Posted By: Hooves
Originally Posted By: Bucksnort
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
But do something original that will stand out.


A dynamic campaign would stand out!


So something we are working on right now is a dynamic MP campaign. The Editor has the ability to set end parameters so on load, the next map based on criteria met or not met by the previous mission, will load. The next can also be generated by a parser that counted previous mission results. No its not SP, but could be designed to be played SP. You just need a server to run your mission and you connect to it, lock it and PW it, and whalla, you have a Dynamic SP campaign.

Its in early development, but we have proven its possible. Of course the ability to host straight from your own games GUI like in RoF would be ideal. I hope they add that back in.

That sounds awesome! Keep up the great work.


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