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#4153509 - 08/03/15 08:21 PM Nothing to see here, move along...  
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HeinKill Offline
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Pointless. Withdrawn.


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#4153550 - 08/04/15 12:15 AM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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Meanwille we can "simulate" Chain Home. wink


#4153590 - 08/04/15 03:38 AM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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Not going to say much as I am an in the shadows SP member at Atag, but I was disappointed when I heard that TF 5.0 will not be out until the end of 2016 at best. I don't want to discourage any of the TF Members or anyone at ATAG because what you all are doing is simply amazing and CLOD would not be used if you hadn't stepped in and tamed CLOD where everyone could use it. CLOD has such potential and is fabulous right now, but if you wait a year or more to release anything, I fear most will have tired of the BOB with no new content. I think Heinkill makes a very good point with intelligent and practical real world examples of the benefits of doing smaller releases, at least yearly.
I have to agree with him, I wish you all would really think outside the box on this one and weigh out the consequences vs. the benefits of your current blueprint. Just want to close with, Thanks all in and at ATAG and All involved in TF. You guys are all awesome and I am really enjoying what you have done so far. I will be there whenever TF 5.0 is released and respect your decisions either way. salute

S!Blade<>< salute

#4153594 - 08/04/15 04:28 AM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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Airdrop01 Offline
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Originally Posted By: HeinKill
Dear Team Fusion

Firstly, thanks for all your hard work. I realise you do it in your spare time, out of love for the game and passion for making it better.

I was disappointed to see a good discussion locked, on all places, Team Fusion forum.

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18232

Why? Because apparently too many people disagree with the TF strategy of delaying release of content until the mother of all updates is ready, some years after the last release.

"This is our decision. If others disagree, they are free to find the time and skills to investigate the game on their own."

Very disappointing. I would rather hope TF would remain open to discussion.

Because in this experienced modder's opinion you are wrong (and I reserve the right to tell you so.)

Especially about this:

ATAG COLANDER - Preparing a smaller update for release is as big a pain in the INSERT_BODY_PART_HERE as doing it for a large one. That said, TF accomplish nothing by giving you a release with, for example, new sounds or textures only. This will just increase the complaints because of the lack of substance.

Sorry, but that is simply not true. In the BoB Developers Group (BOBII) we released an annual update with bug fixes and incremental improvements, releasing whatever was ready for prime time eg new aircraft variant, new sounds, new objects, new campaign mode, new FMs/DMs. Not all at once, but once a year. We did this for several years.

And mostly what we got was thanks for what we did, not complaints about what we didn't.

Yes, the release requires work, but it has the following benefits:

- It generates PR and news on community forums and websites
- It maintains and even grows interest in the title
- It attracts new members to volunteer their time
- It motivates the existing team to continue its work because you get positive feedback from happy players

In this way we kept BOBII alive and thriving between 2005 and 2012 when most (not all!) of the team moved on to other things. Don't like the example of the BDG? Then how about Team Daidolos, six patches for IL246 since 2009.

I find it tragic that TF thinks the better strategy is to release nothing until you can release everything.

You have so many talented people, working so hard, making new and exciting content and every year you don't release whatever you have, no matter how big or small, the number of Cliffs of Dover players declines.

Sorry guys, that is not a good plan. Whoever is telling you it is, is just wrong.

Yes, that's just my opinion, but a qualified one.

For your sakes as much as anyone else's pls reconsider.

Yours sincerely,

Heiny




Dude, they are doing this for free, in spare time. If they are anything like me, that means they're middle aged guys with jobs, families, kids from college aged to early grade school, and probably work very hard at their real life jobs.

They're kinder than I'd be faced with complaints because I'd just shut the whole thing down, tell you to pound sand and enjoy my life.


"For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Matthew 5:11

Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and merciful. James 5:11
#4153616 - 08/04/15 09:01 AM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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Hello Henkill (and everyone else). I posted the following on the Team Fusion Facebook page. I hope it helps ease the pain and gives an insight into why the date is in 2016:

Well Buzzsaw's announcement certainly caused a bit of a kerfuffle

To be transparent was the best decision. We had every expectation of the community a suing that it 'must' be a Christmas release, the anticipation would build and then nothing. "TF have let us down", "We were promised the patch, what's going on", etc, etc.

Buzzsaw's announcement is there to give the community an insight into a realistic deadline for completion. We, of-course hope to get it out sooner but as has been said many times before in Friday updates, we aren't a studio, we aren't paid and all of us do this as a hobby. As members of this/your/OUR community we do feel the frustration you do too but while members of the community get to fly and use the results of our previous work, we are involved in breaking apart the components further to rebuild them into an even better version.......v5.00

As Buzzsaw pointed out, releasing a compiled version of current work (it's been mentioned here just releasing the landscape) would still require a compile, alpha and beta testing, bug fixes, a recompile, alpha and beta testing, release candidate version, alpha and beta testing, bug fixing release candidate final, alpha and beta testing....launch. Feedback from the community, accidental bug released, find bug, fix, bug, compile, release candidate testing, launch patch, help forum users to install, fix installs for those who aren't sure...etc, etc, etc
Now if the above paragraph doesn't explain the reason that a 'small' interim patch would be a hindrance to the progress of getting a complete patch out, I honestly don't know what will?

In terms of whether the community will still be around, this I can honestly say, we can't answer. What I can say is that the community certainly wouldn't be around if TF hadn't fixed CloD. So if we had decided to stop at v4.312 then we would have left the community with a vastly improved flight sim that the players have and do appreciate and that would have been it.

We have to assume that the reason there is disappointment over Buzzsaw's announcement is because what we did before had such a big impact on the flight sim and for those who fly with it.

Looking at the comments here (on other forums), I see DCS brought up a lot and I have to be honest I can't wait to get into the P-47, however I haven't seen much (if any) footage of servers with 100+ players on a DCS server (or even 32?) and a lot of this has to be down to the net code? I read multiple forums and multiple posts about player number on server in BoS when limited to 32 and this was seen as a very limiting factor for online play, so unless DCS 2.0 (Edge engine) has improved net code, then would this still be the case?

Further to this, the next theatre as I understand it that will be released with BoS is BoM and this is in alpha testing until it's release next--year. So as it stands the IL2 community intends to be around until then, so hopefully when we release v5.00 it will still have an IL2 user base to see what we have done. As I/we have said. Time will tell.

Finally there is a vast amount of material coming in the patch, and we do expect to have a release candidate for internal testing early in 2016, which may allow us to get v5.00 earlier, depending on the results of compile, bug fix, rc1, rc2, and RC final (as mentioned above).
The community knows about a new theatre but not everything about new shipping (many more), aircraft AI and aircraft flyables, FMB objects, effects, sounds, AI, map tool, import export tools, FM/DM (like exploding oxygen tanks), fmb features, coding, and on and on and on. This is effectively if it were an A* game, a £19.99 add-on DLC, and we are making it for free.

We can't be more honest than we have been in Buzzsaw's message. We do understand it isn't the best message the community could hear, but if the community stays strong and with us, then v5.00 will be a turning point because everything being developed by the team is designed to make everything that comes after vastly quicker to use and create content with. Effectively once v5.00 is released the main content that will need to be produced will be maps and models and these features will have tools to simplify the process ready for TF members to use.

The future is bright for the CloD community, but it is just our personal time that we are using to make this update....and we have lives too, though sometimes when negativity prevails, we just think, let's get on with them and why bother frown

But we do bother. And will complete v5.00. We just hope you, the community, will be there to support and enjoy it when it hits the internet.
Time will tell, cheers, MP/TF

-----------------------------------------------

Feel free to discuss the above news but please understand that complaining about it wont make it happen any faster. All I can say is, it will happen and the above message gives an idea when and why it will be like that. Cheers, MP/TF


[img]http://i41.tinypic.com/2yjr679.png[/img]
#4153777 - 08/04/15 02:28 PM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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ATAG_Ohms Offline
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As an open letter to TEAM FUSION why not post it on their forums?

#4153814 - 08/04/15 04:38 PM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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Mysticpuma2003 Offline
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It's fair to see it from both points of view. I see your point and take it onboard. Currently we have a date listed for release, lots of features being worked on and as I said, time will tell how the community reacts. You never know what's around the corner, who knows, there may be a few surprises along the way smile

Cheers, MP


[img]http://i41.tinypic.com/2yjr679.png[/img]
#4153830 - 08/04/15 05:36 PM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: ATAG_Ohms]  
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HeinKill Offline
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Originally Posted By: ATAG_Ohms
As an open letter to TEAM FUSION why not post it on their forums?


Because as stated in the OP, they locked the relevant thread.

H


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#4153834 - 08/04/15 05:55 PM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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Ratcatcher Offline
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Well as someone who has just re-downloaded this (now) great sim, I would have to say that I'm inclined to agree with Heinkill on this. I believe a release once a year would be more beneficial to all than a later release would be.

I also however completely respect the work that TF have, are and will continue to do on ClOD. If that is the route you are going to take, I cant say I'm happy about it but I respect your decision ( but hope you reconsider wink ) and wish you all the best with your continued work.


Last edited by Ratcatcher; 08/04/15 05:57 PM.
#4153843 - 08/04/15 06:40 PM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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Just checked you can start a new thread in the Team Fusion Forum, say in Releases, Mods, Patches none are locked as far as i can see.

#4153912 - 08/04/15 09:44 PM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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Np

#4153923 - 08/04/15 10:32 PM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: Airdrop01]  
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Originally Posted By: Airdrop01
Dude, they are doing this for free, in spare time. If they are anything like me, that means they're middle aged guys with jobs, families, kids from college aged to early grade school, and probably work very hard at their real life jobs.

They're kinder than I'd be faced with complaints because I'd just shut the whole thing down, tell you to pound sand and enjoy my life.


+1000000000000000

The problem is very few people understand what it takes to get something to a release state in the 1st place. Imagine creating tools to import/export planes with no source code, AKA, creating tools by staring at 10,000,000,000 0's and 1's? Just think about that for a minute. There aren't many people on the planet that can do that. That is not an exaggeration.

To try and compare, it's like Neo understanding "The Matrix", all the while everyone just sees pure jibberish on a screen. To say many people have tried is an understatement. But there is no guide. There is no source code. There is no help. And I would lay a huge amount of money on the line that there isn't as capable of programmer out there in all of flight simming, both customer and developer, in the entire simulation market on the planet.

There is not a "team" of people creating all those tools, deciphering the 0's and 1's, and creating tools/programs to run in that environment. There is 1 and only 1 person doing that on their free time. And that 1 person is doing miracles by starting at 0's and 1's. Because even if you are somehow one of the few people on the planet able to decipher it, you still have to be smart enough to find the errors in it in the 1st place with code. You have to know calculus, advanced math, aeronautical engineering, and to top it all off, you have to create code, tools, programs etc., just to be able to fix old code. And all these tools are needed to do everything from airplane creation, to custom FM, to custom DM, to custom textures, to creating maps, to moving parts programming, and so on.

So realize, the reason 5.0's expected release date is XXX and there aren't little mini patches released is because every single part of this creation relies entirely on tools to be able to do it. So if you take a plane and a 3d model. It's gotta have a tool to put it in the game. Then it's gotta have it's FM programmed. Then is has to have it's DM programmed. Then it has to have it's texture mapping programmed. Then it has to have all it's moving parts programmed. Now realize every single aspect of development works that way. And there will not be planes released without the proper map released for it. And to think about the map development, repeat everything above once again.

And just when you think you have something done and are ready to test, the patch version must be compiled. This compile (just like a TF patch) takes an ENTIRE weekend to get done. 1 single one or zero in the wrong spot, start that 24 hour compile process all over again. Then realize once the compile part is finally to a point where it is finalized and can be playtested, upon finding all the bugs, errors, and everything else that that particular version and the beta testers found. Guess what? All that stuff has to be fixed again (read the 1st few paragraphs above on how that is done), then realize it all has to be compiled again (another entire WEEKEND of work) just for one more test of the same version.

In closing, I hope some of this is sinking in. The reason TF is releasing stuff as they are and the schedule they have is simply because there's no other way to do it. I hope this gives the people thinking the management is all wrong a better understanding. And also realize, if said programmer had access to the source code, this sim would sell more copies than the original IL2. He could fix every single issue anyone ever think existed, update it to DX12 (for the hell of it), why not a 64bit version? Sure, why not? So yeah.. said person kicks himself in the ass for not approaching said dev team at the time, but like most, didn't know anything about what was going on in the background. \

Oh, and did I mention these people are doing this in their free time and aren't paid? To say the word "passionate" is an understatement.

#4153958 - 08/05/15 12:55 AM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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I left Team Fusion 6 months ago.
I left ATAG 6 months ago. (though I still frequent the forum, once in awhile)
I left CLOD and ALL flight sims and gaming 6 months ago.
I left it all, in good standing, of my own free will.
My reasons were health, personal and professional related.

I have no stake in the game anymore.

Everything Bliss said above is true.

I was one of the few who could decode the 0s and 1s (though nowhere near the level of said person mentioned in above post). There is nothing for TF to reconsidered. It simply can't be done. It is not BOB or 1946 or any other modded game out there. It is being created by pure brute force, literally restringing 0s and 1s back together to create new content. Yes, models are being built in conventional 3d modelling programs...yes, pretty images are being released as updates...but the importing of that data into the game must be done via 0s and 1s. In an order that was in an unknown format and must be deciphered without any help from some magical master code book. Don't even get me started trying to explain the map making decoding and restructuring that was/is being done.

I walked away 6 months ago, I have moved on, but it still pisses me off to no end seeing people taking the Team for granted. Yes, I realize, Heinkill, that you are saying "lets just talk about it" but you have no clue what you are talking about nor what it is like being on the other side, in the Team, and hearing this crap go on. You have no clue what these guys have done and go through to get it done. Yes, there is a plan of action. Yes, they continually are making progress. No, it is not impossible. IT ALL TAKES TIME.


Marmus

#4153962 - 08/05/15 01:27 AM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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bisher Offline
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I appreciate what you said Marmus, but as HeinKill stated this is offered as open discussion and this thread has become very informative

If conversation is crap, well................


#4153965 - 08/05/15 01:43 AM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: bisher]  
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Originally Posted By: bisher
I appreciate what you said Marmus, but as HeinKill stated this is offered as open discussion and this thread has become very informative

If conversation is crap, well................



While that is all well and good, bisher, the entire point is that it's stuff that shouldn't have to be explained in the 1st place. TF is aiming for date X, and there's already been an explanation of why. No amount of conversation lambasting that fact is going to change it one iota.

#4153974 - 08/05/15 02:14 AM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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Yes perhaps you should not discuss this, it's leaving a sour taste in my mouth

#4154017 - 08/05/15 06:09 AM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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komemiute Offline
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I don't expect my words to make any difference but if there's ONE reason I can give anyone who asks me "Why did you buy CloD?"- well that's Team Fusion.

Them. Their passion. Not just the end result.
They fought and are fighting nails and teeth to make it something that deserves to be played.

I've rarely if ever seen anything quite like that.

If anyone from TF is reading here... I don't know any of you, but I hold all of you very dear.

Thank you for facing everyday's real and virtual flak.

Last edited by komemiute; 08/05/15 06:10 AM.

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#4154023 - 08/05/15 06:54 AM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: Mysticpuma2003]  
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Originally Posted By: Mysticpuma2003

...will complete v5.00. We just hope you, the community, will be there to support and enjoy it when it hits the internet.


That is main concern - I think many of us, poor consumers and sim flight enthusiasist, is not so patient. I can tell you that from my own experience - after months of teasing and promising addons without any release I finally turn my focus to other flight sim titles (I will not advertise it here, but you can guess what). And that is really pity.
Just my two cents.

#4154026 - 08/05/15 07:05 AM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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@Heinkill: my "flak" wasn't even remotely aimed at you. smile


Click to reveal..
"Himmiherrgottksakramentzefixhallelujah!"
Para_Bellum

"It takes forever +/- 2 weeks for the A-10 to get anywhere significant..."
Ice

"Ha! If it gets him on the deck its a start!"
MigBuster

"What people like and what critics praise are rarely the same thing. 'Critic' is just another one of those unnecessary, overpaid, parasitic jobs that the human race has churned out so that clever slackers won't have to actually get a real job and possibly soil their hands."
Sauron
#4154097 - 08/05/15 12:18 PM Re: An open letter to Team Fusion [Re: HeinKill]  
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bisher Offline
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Originally Posted By: HeinKill

Originally Posted By: Marmus
Heinkill, that you are saying "lets just talk about it" but you have no clue what you are talking about ...You have no clue what these guys have done and go through to get it done.


Actually, yes I do. Intimately well thanks. Been there, done it over several years, got the t-shirt. Hence the (I hope) very respectful tone in my posts.

H


Yes I do not understand the angst

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