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#4145559 - 07/12/15 12:39 AM What I noticed with AI behavior, so far  
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Disclaimer: This post is not meant to start a flame war or discredit OBD's excellent AI routines - actually the best I've seen in any flight sim. I am just posting my opinion of how I've noticed the AI behave after about a year of playing WOFF and having activity labels turned "on" during making of my alternate mission, historical aces can die and DM mods. I'd be interested to know if anyone monitoring the AI behavior notices different than what I did.

Also, I realize the different factors that can come into play like morale, damage, skill, clouds, etc... but this observation is pretty much consistent in all types of situations.


Click to reveal..
All planes are within 100 meters of each other and this does not include when the label activity changes from one state to another (mix of campaign and QC results):

AI "going home" or "landing" or "bombing" and enemy AI in any state -> no encounter

AI "on patrol" or "on transit (to waypoint)" and enemy AI "on transit" -> dogfight


#4145576 - 07/12/15 02:35 AM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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That's been my experience as well.


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#4146838 - 07/15/15 12:28 PM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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Yeah I can find it abit annoying when the flight goes into going home mode and will then ignore all enemies even if they are right next to them, or not breaking off from landing and then attack any attacking enemies instead of it being a Turkey shoot. It's the one and only issue I don't like with WOFF.

I posted about this near release.

Last edited by Wodin; 07/15/15 12:30 PM.
#4146852 - 07/15/15 01:05 PM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: Wodin]  
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Originally Posted By: Wodin
Yeah I can find it abit annoying when the flight goes into going home mode and will then ignore all enemies even if they are right next to them, or not breaking off from landing and then attack any attacking enemies instead of it being a Turkey shoot. It's the one and only issue I don't like with WOFF.

I posted about this near release.


I would like to add my observatio of enemy in la ding mode. I have had two occurrances in which while attacking the landing enemy, they took evasi e action and actually tried to get on my six. Is it possible that my attack forced them out of landing mode and pick up a new assignment? I think these two occurrances are worthy of analysis as they break the mold of what you are alluding to.


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#4146977 - 07/15/15 05:38 PM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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The AI is just too "human like." And that was OBD's intent.
The reason I say this is that I have seen it both ways - after a attack they think they are in the clear and go right back to landing and I have seen where they begin the dogfight process. Seems like nothing is ever exactly the same which is very cool.

#4146986 - 07/15/15 06:08 PM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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Oh the irony.
Was just on a DOP over a 'drome near Douai and saw 4 Albs from Jasta 4 in a landing pattern. Double checked with Labels.
Anyway attacked one and the dogfight started with his pals joining in along with two members of my flight who were just chasing DFW's (Labels) a few minutes before. Shot down my guy and was trying to join back up when I was shot up, and wounded, by two more (or the same group) of Jasta 4 aircraft that I thought were gone.
Yea I just think there are no rules to what the AI is going to do from one situation to the next but clearly they have no problem coming out of a landing pattern.

#4147055 - 07/15/15 09:37 PM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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Nice inputs here. But my observations were for AI vs AI with no player input. I sometimes watch a mission unfold by using autopilot for the whole mission with activity labels turned on. This is so that I can identify patterns in AI behavior. This helps me with making my MODS.

Think about this, would your squad have attacked the planes that were landing if you didn't initiate the attack or would they have just flew right past them? If you analyze the AI long enough, you will see patterns that are consistant. Out of the hundred or so missions that I've flown in autopilot, not once did the AI attack a landing aircraft. There are also other "activities" that will cause the AI to not attack and pass up a dogfight opportunity which I had mentioned in the wish list.

It's a very good AI overall, but there is always room for improvement in any game. And the more folks point out things they'd like to see improve in WOFF (i.e. Wish List), the better chance OBD will listen.

#4147057 - 07/15/15 09:50 PM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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I'm seeing the same thing happen in my 1915 DID campaign. At that time, the Morane was a fighter and the game will assign missions to us that fighters would receive and when I have autopilot, I've witnessed many times when my flight will fly right past German planes without acknowledging their presence. I've always wondered about that.


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#4147064 - 07/15/15 10:18 PM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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Two comments:
1) OldHat - are you saying when it's AI vs AI the actions/reactions are "always" (or consistently) the same? Your comment about not attacking landing aircraft makes me think the "what is a viable target" may initiate AI actions. Landing aircraft are not aggressive aircraft therefore not a target...I think my last fight supports that perhaps. The AI Flight Leader attacked farther DFW's (TBH that I didn't see!) instead of attacking the the obvious, though LANDING (per Labels) Alb's right in front of us. Once I initiated combat with them, and they fought back, my flight apparently disregarded the DFW's or shot them down, and joined me in the fight with the Alb's. So perhaps it is the human players interaction that makes things different every time?
Of course, like I continue to stress, nothing is ever the same every time it seems.

2) BJM - in my experience the flight that I am in has NO difficulty in seeing and attacking the enemy. Especially since the latest patches. Ain't seen much change in the Support Flight yet but I don't think that is a vision question, or even an AI question, but what ORDERS the Support Flight thinks they are following. Of course I fly with Elite squadrons and they are a little more "perky" on the attack.

#4147070 - 07/15/15 10:32 PM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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It's mainly the going home mode I've noticed. They will never initiate combat nor will your flight attack them.

Landing I may have seen planes ai kick in..but never in going home mode.

As mentioned it seems once the AI is in going home mode all combat AI features terminate for the flight.

#4147083 - 07/15/15 11:07 PM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: Wodin]  
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Originally Posted By: Wodin
It's mainly the going home mode I've noticed. They will never initiate combat nor will your flight attack them.

Landing I may have seen planes ai kick in..but never in going home mode.

As mentioned it seems once the AI is in going home mode all combat AI features terminate for the flight.


That may be, wodin, but I suspect tbey will react if pestered!


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#4147096 - 07/15/15 11:50 PM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: Wodin]  
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Originally Posted By: Wodin
It's mainly the going home mode I've noticed. They will never initiate combat nor will your flight attack them.

Landing I may have seen planes ai kick in..but never in going home mode.

As mentioned it seems once the AI is in going home mode all combat AI features terminate for the flight.


When I read this I have to laugh.
I am not making excuses for the AI (though I think that overall it is excellent) but what's funny to me is how many times I have been shot down doing the same thing!
Too damaged to fight, enemy on your tail, and just flying trying to recross the lines or trying to get to a nearby airfield for a emergency landing and flying straight and as fast as possible trying to get there.

#4147109 - 07/16/15 12:28 AM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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I've lead a flight home, spotted ea down low and attacked them. My squad followed me on the attack and did engage on two occasions and followed on another but didn't engage. The time they didn't engage was against a lone ea.

Maybe they figured I could handle it alone? IDK
Sometimes my squad mates will crash into each other fighting to finish off a duck I crippled. After I put a few rounds into it's engine so it was smoking, I disengaged and my squadmates left it alone.

#4147110 - 07/16/15 12:31 AM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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Oh yes it will still attack you then..where they ignore you is if your flight is led by an AI flight leader and thye can fly straight past an enemy flight when in going home mode, as soon as the flight goes into that mode it will neither go onto attack any enemy flight that come close and no friendly flight including yours if your following an AI flight leader will attack them. Been like this since release.

Robert actually they wont react..the only one to react is the one you may shoot..the rest will just carry on as if nothing is happening.

#4147112 - 07/16/15 12:40 AM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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Wodin, is correct. The other thing, when they are in the 'going home' mode the AI will react if you hit them but then immediately go back into the 'going home' mode.


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#4147120 - 07/16/15 01:06 AM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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Yes, you guys are correct in interpreting what I had been observing all this time.

I'm copying this over from the wish list because it will gather the relevant information into this thread. So, don't read the next part if you don't want to spoil the immersion.

The AI will not initiate an attack with another AI (i.e. no player input) in the following activity states: "going home", "landing", "taking off", "attacking" (ground structure or balloon), "in transit", "forming up"

The AI will run away and "going home" when it is in a weaker plane. It will even ditch its bomber escorts!

I'm assuming that if OBD RANDOMIZES these occurances instead of keeping them consistant, then it will truely make the AI one step closer to becoming human-like.... Imagine flying over an enemy airfield where you observe planes in a landing pattern and then all of a sudden, they turn to intercept your patrol. OR you're attacking an enemy's railyard and you see an enemy patrol "going home" suddenly turn around to attack you.... random events where anything is possible.

#4147156 - 07/16/15 03:16 AM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: Banjoman]  
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Correct. They don't actually all break off an go into combat mode..just the one being shot may try to evade but then as said go back to going home.

It's the only part of WOFF I don't like. Which really says alot for WOFF that I can find only one thing I'd change.

Originally Posted By: Banjoman
Wodin, is correct. The other thing, when they are in the 'going home' mode the AI will react if you hit them but then immediately go back into the 'going home' mode.

Last edited by Wodin; 07/16/15 03:17 AM.
#4148360 - 07/19/15 09:59 PM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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We don't do simple randomisation / die rolls for decisions for the AI, like much of the AI out there in many sims.

What it would need to be even more human like is more features added. More AI thought processes and choices at various places = more coding to add new modes how to react.

For the wish list.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
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#4148394 - 07/20/15 12:44 AM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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Don't dismiss randomization just yet. You could add modifiers to a base value like you did with vision. It works really well in a lot of games. An injured pilot or damaged plane can get a negative modifier while a healthy pilot and plane get a positive one. It would be a rare occurrence like the engine failures that are currently included in WOFF which depends on the plane type.

I'm in a Halb DII campaign with Jasta 30 in 1917 right now and it's very frustrating to always go into a landing pattern once the flight leader spots a Pup or Neup. I'd like our leader to actually try once in a while to defend our balloons and Airbases without running away every time. I've seen these types of encounters so much, that they've become very predictable to guess which planes will run away and which ones will stay and fight.

Another "rare" and random event to consider would be to add a "magic bullet". One bullet hit would kill a pilot - i.e. like he got shot in the head with a lucky bullet. Or cause the engine to burst into flames with that lucky hit.

IMHO, these additions will be the icing on a delicious cake.

#4148975 - 07/21/15 10:35 AM Re: What I noticed with AI behavior, so far [Re: OldHat]  
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We do have randomisation built in to skills itself. For example the AI scans the skies every so often with various rules for looking behind, up, etc etc and during that there is a certain % chance to see each time, which also fades with distance. What it needs is more features to allow them to make more choices during landing or whatever.

An injured pilot with -1 is not random unless it becomes a random value obviously such as 0,-1,-2 etc.
and you would likely never notice it when it happens (or someone will complain the Ai didn't see him and flew right past - bug!) - unless it has a label on it telling you he is blinded.

Anyway once we put more choices and decisions they will do it.

As I said we could make the whole game die rolls but for our AI we need MORE choices and code applied to more areas to make them do more things.

If you are going to fly 100s of missions simply to watch for patterns then gaming can't be much fun and it will break immersion once you micro analysis things. The fun vanishes for developers once you get stuck in for sure - sounds like you are getting there.

The AI even compare enemy aircraft abilities to their own, enemy pilot abilities and so on which is probably why your Halbs run. Maybe the other guys have Aces on board too often as they will get your flight to run, especially if your flight is relatively poor and so on.
Yes the AI can be better and have more. We know the sim very well as we made it.

Overall compared to most AI out there they make a pretty great job of making odd unusual decisions sometime.
Anyway the sim is what it is, as per the reviews one of the best sims ever.

One day with enough support maybe we can add even more to the AI to make it even better sure, as we always have so far.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
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