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#4146232 - 07/14/15 03:45 AM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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The Warboys are these young males who are training and fighting all the time. These old women are existing in relative peace. There's not nearly enough of them to indicate as evidence they've been in a state of warfare as nearly as much. With just a few of them, they could not be holding off these other war tribes all the time, they are vastly outnumbered. They're not raising younger girls to do the fighting, so it's coherent that they're not fighting that much.

And to state the obvious: they're old. There is nothing mysterious about this. There's pretty good reasons why you don't see old professional athletes and militaries recruiting them. Post menopausal women lose bone density and muscle mass at an even faster rate than the males. Cognitive ability also starts turning off for both sexes. You're talking about males in their prime against a handful of older women. So if this weren't a movie, I don't believe you would bet on them. No matter how biased someone might be, intuitively, they are going to believe the old women are going to be in trouble.

Now George Miller may contrive a way around this by making the Warboys stupid cannon fodder, and that's basically what he does when he does that dumb religion thing. Again, he doesn't do it this way with the other films. The circumstances are enough in the way have lost their minds after losing the world. They lost their families, the world has collapsed, man is going off the deep end. That's enough reason for everyone to be a little crazy, and that's the point that Mad Max I and II had made. The main protagonist blurs the line.

But not quite the way in Fury Road. The most sense that you get that this character is dark is when he leaves the screen and returns in his enemies' blood. They don't show how or what he did.

My sense must also be that Furiosa must be really be doing insane things to gain the respect of that tribe. She can't just be angel, otherwise they wouldn't accept her on equal ground, and perhaps she'd be one of the captive wives or something. But they don't even really imply anything she may have done that would be 'evil' but practical or something.

This film does not have enough character to me. I think George Miller too a more artistic and less straight forward approach.





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#4146236 - 07/14/15 04:05 AM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Mechanus]  
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Originally Posted By: Mechanus
The Warboys are these young males who are training and fighting all the time. These old women are existing in relative peace. There's not nearly enough of them to indicate as evidence they've been in a state of warfare as nearly as much. With just a few of them, they could not be holding off these other war tribes all the time, they are vastly outnumbered. They're not raising younger girls to do the fighting, so it's coherent that they're not fighting that much.

And to state the obvious: they're old. There is nothing mysterious about this. There's pretty good reasons why you don't see old professional athletes and militaries recruiting them. Post menopausal women lose bone density and muscle mass at an even faster rate than the males. Cognitive ability also starts turning off for both sexes. You're talking about males in their prime against a handful of older women. So if this weren't a movie, I don't believe you would bet on them. No matter how biased someone might be, intuitively, they are going to believe the old women are going to be in trouble.

Now George Miller may contrive a way around this by making the Warboys stupid cannon fodder, and that's basically what he does when he does that dumb religion thing. Again, he doesn't do it this way with the other films. The circumstances are enough in the way have lost their minds after losing the world. They lost their families, the world has collapsed, man is going off the deep end. That's enough reason for everyone to be a little crazy, and that's the point that Mad Max I and II had made. The main protagonist blurs the line.

But not quite the way in Fury Road. The most sense that you get that this character is dark is when he leaves the screen and returns in his enemies' blood. They don't show how or what he did.

My sense must also be that Furiosa must be really be doing insane things to gain the respect of that tribe. She can't just be angel, otherwise they wouldn't accept her on equal ground, and perhaps she'd be one of the captive wives or something. But they don't even really imply anything she may have done that would be 'evil' but practical or something.

This film does not have enough character to me. I think George Miller too a more artistic and less straight forward approach.






It doesn't matter, you make it out like the old women were some amazing soldiers that kicked a bunch of ass, they kill like one vehicle and a couple guys and then they all die, key here is, THEY ALL DIE. Except for one or two but I only got to see the film once so I can't remember how many survive exactly, I know one gets shot in the truck, one gets run over, two flip on their motorcycle or something, I think only one or two survive to the end? SO it's not like they were immortal, it's not like they were unbelievably strong for older women, they fought, killed a couple people and then died, just like the people in Road Warrior.

You're holding the characters in the previous film in higher regard than even George Miller did, if you don't think every character but Max was cannon fodder in MM 1 and 2, then you were not paying attention. That woman in white football armor? Her name in the credits is literally "WARRIOR WOMAN" that is the definition of cannon fodder, she may as well have been henchman 1 or henchman 2.

Seriously dude, look at the credits for Road Warrior.

Curmudgeon
Mechanic
Quiet Man
Feral Kid
Warrior Woman
The Toadie
The Gyro Captain

Most of the characters in the movie don't even have names, they are cannon fodder, everybody in these films except Max, is cannon fodder, up until maybe Thunder Dome and Fury Road. I would say Fury Road has less cannon fodder in it than the previous movies, because most of the characters have actual names, Imperator Furiso, Nux, Max, Immortan Joe, Angahrrad etc. But even then, there's a bunch of throw away nobodies, because Mad Max is not about strong characters and great storytelling, it's about amazing action sequences.

Furiosa is a driver and a damn good one, that is what you can surmise from the beginning of the film, they hold her in high regard because she is a badass driver.

How is this movie not straightforward though? I mean you seem mixed up, you're saying that Mad Max has all these homo erotic prison sex undertones and depraved whatever, is that supposed to be straight forward? I mean Mad Max 1 is not a straightforward movie, it is shot in a bizarre manner, it has little dialogue, it uses weird mechanics in the film like deliberate speed up and overall the movie is bleak and barren not just in the world it's depicting, but in the way it's filmed. Mad Max 1 is an artsy movie disguised as a campy action film.

But Fury Road is pretty much entirely straight forward in the same ways the previous films were, Furiosa is breaking slaves out of captivity, the big bads don't like that, they fight, badabing, badaboom, Max plays a role in their survival as always, everything concludes, the end. Voila, a typical Mad Max film in the can.

#4146243 - 07/14/15 04:30 AM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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"It doesn't matter" - there you have it. Perhaps they are raising movie audiences to ever except the idea that an apparently uneven playing field is easily surmounted, that's possible. Is this a politically correct message gone out of control? Perhaps. Film genres from past decades have affected the public this way before. It's not unprecedented, from the propaganda, clean depiction of warfare to love story romances kind of warping imaginations. You're not going to prima facie tell me that senior citizen females hold a plausible edge like that. You just would tend not to bet on this sort of thing outside of the movies.


I think it's trying to be quite artistic (it's not to say that the other films didn't, from the CGI tornado battle to the religion to costumes, it's more artistic than the others. One image comes right out at you- the guitar player plugged into those huge amps. The vehicle and costume designs are also more artistic (granted Road Warrior was more artistic). The blood donor thing is another. That's not even medically practical, that's really kind of nonsense. The other films just doesn't use art to reflect insanity in the same way. These guys are like a French Canadian acting troupe or something.

And I'll say it as I've said before- it's not the Humungus' vermin weren't being killed, but the odds weren't as one sided. Both sides were locked in a war of attrition that would eventually wear down the protagonists. And all the strong characters save for Max (and perhaps the Gyro Captain) are killed. The only ones to survive were ironically the ones too weak to fight.

#4146426 - 07/14/15 03:26 PM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Well at this point you're just ignoring things I say and reiterating everything you say again and again so, adios.

#4146456 - 07/14/15 04:14 PM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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We're not in agreement, that's for sure.

I'm not trying to force you to see it my way, in fact, you started this debate all fired up.

I'll never tell someone what they should like or shouldn't like, that's absurd. I am explaining why I wasn't really impressed.

See, the violence and controversy about politics aside, what I really didn't see much in this film is character. The dialogue was pretty unremarkable, there were no characters that stood out in my view. Even the debate among the people in Road Warrior seemed more human, with some of them frightened and ready to take Humungus' offer, and some of the others wanted to keep holding out. Nothing like that here, just flat from beginning to end. You don't have to agree, but if you ask me why, I am explaining it.

#4146547 - 07/14/15 07:31 PM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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You're both passionate about the movies, that's clear to see. I'd say that's a positive note to end on.


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#4146549 - 07/14/15 07:33 PM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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LOL I never imagined this thread topic would still be going on. Sheesh. smile


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4146724 - 07/15/15 02:03 AM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted By: Raw Kryptonite
LOL
I actually liked John Carter, but I know what you mean. Not bad, but wasn't worth it.


Me too, it had so much more potential though.


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#4146731 - 07/15/15 02:41 AM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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If you have seen the last three Mad Max movies they are not actor driven movies but part of the story of survival.I liked it,gritty and action driven and sometimes the survival for the future is to do things we would consider violent and bloodthirsty.

#4146750 - 07/15/15 04:12 AM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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I have seen them all, and I would rank Fury Road above Thunderdome and beneath Road Warrior and Mad Max in grit. Max is fully healthy physically, and he and his gang don't seem all that dark in comparison.

There are definitely character driven plots in these films when these personalities collide. Humungus is a very charismatic character. He uses that to put fear into his enemies and control his vermin, which are chaotic otherwise. Toe Cutter is appropriately one of the most slimey characters there has ever been.

And the protagonists at times show moments that they are also hanging on to shred of whatever humanity they have.

I don't get much of this sense with Fury Road. Like I said, Furiosa must be doing bad stuff for them to respect her and leave her alone, this is a topic they really don't go into, although it should be an obvious path to explore and develop on this idea. They even grant compassion to that enemy they captured and reasoned that he was a brainwashed kid. Hell, even his conversion occurs in just a matter of minutes.

The enemies are pretty dull, and that's a mistake- you need a foil for the protagonists to overcome. But if they are overcome too easily, say, even old ladies are able to give them the slip, then you don't really have tension in your film. Your enemy is not much of an obstacle.

#4146817 - 07/15/15 11:23 AM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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IMHO, "The Road Warrior" is by far the best of the series. It just worked on every level.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4146874 - 07/15/15 01:39 PM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Agreed. The original was good, then they kicked it up a notch and furthered the fall of society. Thunderdome and to a greater extent Fury Road are just meh.


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#4146912 - 07/15/15 03:13 PM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Yes, but only Thunderdome spawned two lasting contributions to our culture:

One, Tina's song. It just epitomizes the 80s. Perfect.

Two--the ability to answer anyone's passing comment about Thunderdome with "can't we just get beyond Thunderdome?"
Never fails to be awesome.



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#4146922 - 07/15/15 03:31 PM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Not to mention this classic line!

With numerous applications, like mumbling it when entering the rest room after some other dude (use at your own risk) smile :





Why men throw their lives away attacking an armed Witcher... I'll never know. Something wrong with my face?
#4164339 - 09/02/15 02:59 PM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Sorry for dragging this thing out of the abyss, but I just saw this movie last night. As a purely adrenaline rush, it is very good. Looking for action, looking for music, looking for absurdity, you've got it all rolled into one. I enjoyed it for what it was, an action movie set in an over the top unrealistic future.

I did like how they made a nod to the original action scenes of road warrior. Several times in this movie they sped the time up just to the point it was noticeable. Similar to some of the chase action in Road Warrior.

I have to give the creators props for the incredibly absurd and creative ideas for vehicles and weapons. Yes guns were too common but it didn't eliminate some of the other crazy methods of combat. The harpoon anchors, explosive spears, caltrops, pendulum swings, etc...

I also don't find the religious aspect all that strange. For a patriarchal society built around combat, I was not surprised they would adopt some form of Scandanavian/Norse religion. We are not far enough along in the future to have forgotten history, and the idea of Valhalla and a warriors death seems appropriate for this group.

My take on the old women. I have to agree with redpiano on this one. For me, this seems like a world where EVERYONE is in constant conflict. I don't think there is anywhere you could hide away. The fact that there are only of few of them to me suggests that they have been in a constant war of attrition. These women are all that is left. The toughest, the smartest, the survivors. If anyone could hold there own, these women could. This is also where the abundance of guns helps. Guns are the great equalizer in combat. I would argue that a old woman, trained and experience in combat (shooting), defending a fortification (that is what the war machine is, a moving fortification) where agility and strength is less necessary would be just as dangerous as anyone else. And even with all of these advantages they loose all but 1.

And finally, I agree about building to a climax. I don't think this movie had a problem with that even with the 80% car chase. The problem it had with this 1.5 hour moving set, is that it wasted to many opportunities for character development. We don't really know any of the characters real motivations. We can make assumptions but we don't really know. All those times when they were in non action scenes could have been used to build these connections and they wasted it with grunting, water waste, and extended mistrust. So with a slight adjustment to the action early on, shifting it to later, with a little character development early could have fixed that right up.

S


MWO callsign Feetwet
#4164568 - 09/03/15 04:00 AM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Well osteoporosis is a very real, biological fact for post menopausal women with risks likely enhanced by the primitive conditions they're living in. And I don't see them as honed for combat for any real reason- since there are so few of them kind of existing out of the way, they can't be fighting all the time and maintaining that competitive edge. Since there are so few of them, they wouldn't be able to stand up against all those numbers all the time, there's just no way that can happen for long. I find it difficult to believe that they are even subsisting on any significant nourishment, let alone they're evidently in top shape to take on these much younger males who are supposed to be so enthused about combat that they actually want to die in order to to go to Valhalla. This is a death cult.

This part of the story just doesn't work for me. Can someone recall a heroic tale from any culture where something similar happens- against odds, a handful of older women were rather decisive like this- it's going to be difficult to come up with examples like this unless they were magic users casting combat spells. No one expects it of them. In real life if you tried to do something like this, people would look at you like there is something wrong with you to throw them away like that.


#4164710 - 09/03/15 01:36 PM Re: Mad Max: Fury Road...semi-spoiler-free [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Well all I can say is that in this world who knows what life would mold. Hell, have you seen what the sun does to long time sun bathers. Those ladies may be 35. biggrin

If that plot line ruined the movie for you then it ruined it for you. It didn't break the flow for me, which made the last scene a lot of fun.

With all that said, I have always remembered my 80 year old grandmother as an absolute ninja with a garden hoe. She was the scurge of any deadly snake her grandbabies ran across in southern Alabama.

S


MWO callsign Feetwet
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