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#4141114 - 06/30/15 12:52 AM Formation Flying  
Joined: May 2015
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BKCason Offline
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BKCason  Offline
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Maryland, USA
While doing the slow missions in early 1915 in my BE2c, I have been trying to improve my formation flying. Actually improve is too strong a word. What I mean is do it at all for more than a few seconds without hitting the flight leader or losing sight of him completely.

This seems like an impossible task. When using autopilot, I see the autopilot constantly playing with the throttle to maintain position. Of course I have not idea when the flight leader will make a turn. The missions are primarily patrol missions which fly in large circles [or so it seems, a constant turn] or elongated ellipses. I avoid practice at these times. I wait until we are headed back to base and try to maintain position on the leader. Not going too well. nope

Do you have any hints, suggestion, or tricks of the trade to share with a new pilot?


Regards,
Ben Cason
"I shall endeavor to persevere" - Chief Dan George in "Outlaw Josey Wales"

#4141129 - 06/30/15 02:01 AM Re: Formation Flying [Re: BKCason]  
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MFair Offline
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BK, all I can say is practice, practice, practice. I just finished a DID mission which was a deep offensive patrol. With as much practice as I have had there were 4 or 5 times on this mission where I looked behind and to the side and then when I looked forward no one was there. Made my heart skip a beat as that usually means the Huns are about. Turned out they would be above me or below me. Its part of the fun!

If I am flying No. 2 or 3 which is either side of the leader, I try to keep him on the edge of my vision while I scan the sky. If flying another position I keep the plane to the left or right in my peripheral vision. Don't try to stay too close until you get the feel of it. I remember how hard it was at first. Keep at it. It will come to you.


Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from either end.
BOC Member since....I can't remember!
#4141148 - 06/30/15 02:48 AM Re: Formation Flying [Re: BKCason]  
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Rick_Rawlings Offline
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Rick_Rawlings  Offline
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BK, if it makes you feel any better, I've been flying Over Flanders Fields since Phase 3 and this is still my thoughts on it...


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4141155 - 06/30/15 03:00 AM Re: Formation Flying [Re: BKCason]  
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MFair Offline
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rofl


Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from either end.
BOC Member since....I can't remember!
#4141159 - 06/30/15 03:13 AM Re: Formation Flying [Re: BKCason]  
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Combs Offline
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Combs  Offline
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One trick I've discovered is to fly on autopilot in formation and see where the AI puts you relative to the nearest aircraft. Look for a point of reference on your aircraft. For example, in the BE2 in a 3 aircraft formation with you on the right of the lead, the lead aircraft should be in the crossed wires on your port wing. Use this point of reference when you are flying to help maintain position. It is very difficult to do, especially when you are also scanning the sky for hostile aircraft.

Last edited by Combs; 06/30/15 03:13 AM.

No man commands safely unless he has learned well how to obey.
#4141232 - 06/30/15 11:21 AM Re: Formation Flying [Re: BKCason]  
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Maeran Offline
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UK
I must admit, keeping position in a turn is still tricky. But then, the AI tends to lose position too.

I found that it really helped to note the speed that the autopilot kept you at. You can maintain that speed more smoothly that the constant throttle changes suggest and that makes it a lot easier. Still tricky and still needs practice.

#4141255 - 06/30/15 12:12 PM Re: Formation Flying [Re: BKCason]  
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MudWasp Offline
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a shack in da woods
I often find it more stressful than a DF

I do what MFair described. If/when I'm positioned with squadmates on both sides, like # 2 or #3 in a 4 or more formation, I often find myself flying tail or final side slot. It's just safer and easier for me.

#4141323 - 06/30/15 01:41 PM Re: Formation Flying [Re: Rick_Rawlings]  
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BKCason Offline
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BKCason  Offline
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Maryland, USA
I had to wipe coffee off my monitor after reading your post. The "I suck at it" part caught me by surprise just as I took a sip of coffee. rofl The resulting laugh was worth it though. I suspect "I suck at it" will be my claim for a long time. biggrin


Regards,
Ben Cason
"I shall endeavor to persevere" - Chief Dan George in "Outlaw Josey Wales"

#4141334 - 06/30/15 02:00 PM Re: Formation Flying [Re: BKCason]  
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Rick_Rawlings Offline
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Yeah, in my formations, there's a lot of jockeying for position to be the guy that doesn't fly next to me!


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4141556 - 07/01/15 01:25 AM Re: Formation Flying [Re: BKCason]  
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Bad0pel Offline
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Heh, that's why i fly autopilot 75% of the time. I use a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro, and flying in formation is no easy task. I usually only take command during take off, engagements and landings. Other then that i'll park myself in the gunners seat and scan the skies, we come into contact i switch right back to pilot and regain controls. Rudder control is twist on my joystick and my throttle control is right underneath the joystick itself, so trying to hold formation takes a toll on my wrist. I'm waiting to buy a whole flight setup with pedals, throttle and seperate flight controls, maybe then i will take on flying in formations for extended amount of times.

#4141599 - 07/01/15 05:00 AM Re: Formation Flying [Re: BKCason]  
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busdriver Offline
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BK...do you use TrackIR? I ask just in case you're having to fiddle with the POV hat on your stick.

From my perspective, WOFF AI maintains a pretty wide formation, and it sounds like you are trying to fly tighter than what the AI does. I also fly much tighter in low threat phases.

Some RL facts, generally speaking when flying formation you will be making NEARLY CONSTANT small corrections with your throttle AND stick. In pilot training some guys actually used a technique of constantly "stirring the stick" in very small circles. Think micro circles and not stirring a boiling cauldron.

WARNING: Make sure the Formation shape is NOT everybody in Echelon (staggered ALL left or ALL right). WOFF incorrectly will put the last guy in the formation out in front of the Echelon rather than sequential. Meaning the Flight Leader won't be leading, he'll be in the middle. It's really ugly.

During the Rejoin after takeoff, the AI Flight Leader can be brutal at maintaining a steady nominal power setting, so wait until the Flight is Enroute to the target to practice. Pause the sim when the formation is in cruise. Zoom your view in on the guy you're flying off. Not all the way, his airplane shouldn't be more than half the screen. Now take a screenshot. Notice where the wingtip on the far side is in relation to his tail or cockpit. Notice where his engine is in relation to the close wing (aligned with struts?). You're looking for some reference points. Realize when you try to fly closer these references will change a little bit. And notice where this airplane is currently in relation to the wires or struts on your wing...this won't change very much. But before you get to that phase...

I'd suggest you start out flying in the trail position (his six o'clock), looking up at the plane you're flying off of (over the top of the upper wing) rather than flying with him just above your gunsight. Try to align (match) your wings angle of bank with the airplane you're flying off of (it could be an AI other than the Leader). Wiggle your toes, and relax the Death Grip you have on your stick.

You will eventually be able to notice the small power adjustments required to keep your "target" in sight right over the wing. You can then try flying off to the side, but still below. If you're using TrackIR, probably off to the right so you're looking over your left hand. There is a natural tendency to initially fly better formation from the right side.

When you're flying echeloned off of another airplane and it turns away from you, simply align his airplane with the horizon rather than trying to climb and accelerate to a fingertip position. Realize it will require probably all of your power (full throttle) to try and catch up in the turn away from you (these are underpowered crates). When the airplane you're flying off of turns into you, reduce power and push forward on the stick.

If you have Cliffs of Dover or Battle of Stalingrad I can meet up with you online, and on TeamSpeak to give you some pointers.

#4141813 - 07/01/15 06:02 PM Re: Formation Flying [Re: BKCason]  
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Deacon211 Offline
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Deacon211  Offline
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There are a couple of things that might help you in formation flying.

First, formation isn't two dimensional, it's three. So, a single point of reference is usually not enough to maintain position.

Let's say you are holding bearing on the leader by putting the leader's near wingtip right over the edge of his engine. That will keep you on bearing, but it won't maintain your distance, because you can be on bearing ten feet away or you can be on bearing 300 feet away. What you need is a separate bearing to hold you at the intersection of the two. So, if you hold the leader's near wingtip on his engine cowling AND you also match up the tip of the inboard horizontal stabilizer with the trailing tip of the farther wing now you can triangulate yourself at the intersection of the two and maintain position.

These are just examples...look where the autopilot puts you and find your own checkpoints.

Secondly, the reason that the first point is important is that the farther from lead you fly, the harder it is to fly formation. Not only is it more difficult to see relative motion from further away, every movement of lead is also amplified the farther you are from him. If you are well inside of his turn, then you get stuffed as you try to hold a smaller turn radius. If you are on the outside, you are scrambling to catch up to his swinging bearing line.

Lastly, think of holding position as maintaining energy. So, as long as you are roughly in position, don't leave a power correction in until you see it do something...it will almost certainly be too late. Instead, if you are behind the bearing, add a little power for a few seconds, then take it off. Add a little and take it off. This helps prevent overcorrecting.

This is much easier if you are close to the lead.

I don't think that you are ever assigned as dash 4 in the flight so this next part may not matter. But, if you are, look to blank out lead with dash 3. That will mean you are on bearing (or at least the same bearing as -3 is). In addition, even though you must fly off of -3 to avoid hitting him, try to remain stable by looking at lead. This prevents the whip effect which is where all the fun is as dash last!

[EDIT: Whoops, I see Busdriver already brought up most of these points]

Last edited by Deacon211; 07/01/15 06:06 PM.

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