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#4118969 - 05/11/15 03:20 PM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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#4136674 - 06/19/15 07:33 PM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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Well, they just opened up the Open World to all existing players. I have to say my initial reaction is not good. The open world uses compressed time because it is so big that it takes a long time to get anywhere, so you have all these ships zipping about at warp speed. Personally I would have preferred a scaled down terrain without the need to compress time in this manner. Also the battles take place in a separate 'instance'. I'm kind of disappointed at this point.

Last edited by Paul Rix; 06/20/15 07:00 PM.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people.
Carl Sagan
#4136830 - 06/20/15 03:18 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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I wondered why my Lynx was flying like a PT Boat. Thanks, Mr Rix.

#4136856 - 06/20/15 08:44 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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Keep in mind that it's still very early in development.

That being said, I'm not too happy about the warp speed, too. And I think I'd prefer a smaller map but with more 'realistic' ship speeds.


"...late afternoon the Air Tasking Order came in [and] we found the A-10 part and we said, "We are going where!? We are doing what!?"

Capt. Todd Sheehy, Hog pilot, on receiving orders during Operation Desert Storm

#4137142 - 06/21/15 02:57 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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Destraex Offline
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I prefer warp speed because I only consider the open world to be a mode for setting up battles, not an adventure role play mode. I consider the open world to be like a total war map but in 3D. i.e. abstracted. However this particular open world map looks so damned good that people think it's supposed to be a fully working environment. All I want to do in it is spot ships and travel.

Here are a few things that would happen without time compression in the open world:
* I would not be able to rendezvous with my friends... it would just never happen if we started in two different placed. After two days in real time of trying to find each other my friends no doubt would have long since gone and done something else via distraction or played something else.
* If the open world did not go to instances for battles we would have 200,000 ships firing at once = lag or crash
* It would take 8hrs or more to close with an enemy ship potentially
* Everything in the game including affording more ships and equipment would be slowed. You would have to put in 40hrs to afford a few ropes. Your merchant man taking days or weeks in real time to reach port

This is a multiplayer game. We cannot have individuals using time compression. It's all or nothing. So we all have to use it.

Can anybody suggest an alternative that does not involve turning the open world map into a bathtub capable of supporting very few players and feeling tiny?

I should certainly say that you are not alone when it comes to not liking warp speed. It seems to be the greatest shock to most captains. But honestly I do not want it to take literally 8hrs of real time to chase one ship down. To me this is about compromise and about realising the open world is not supposed to be a simulation, the battles are. the open world is a means to an end. How much complaining do you think there would be if nobody ever caught up to anybody because it took too long? Real life would get in the way and nobody would play it. You cannot simply save and come back to the game like you could a single player game.

I understand that people want to be captain aubrey standing on the deck and singing shanties for hours on end while nothing happens. I understand the slight immersion killer that people have when they see a sailing ship in time compression... but honestly I think we are smart enough to realise the tape is on fast forward and we are no longer giggling at the man who sounds funny while dad fast forwards the advertisements at dinner. We know its the same as any flight simulator that uses time compression to get to the mission objective and understand that the game would have no population if every mission was 8hrs wait and 5 minutes of activity.

No matter my feelings or logic though. I hope the devs listen to those the majority in this instance. Because even though ships move at proper speeds in battle instances which are also huge, people just don't seem to be able to suspend their disbelief when it comes to moving around a huge master map at speed.

Last edited by Destraex; 06/21/15 03:01 AM.
#4137164 - 06/21/15 05:01 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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Paul Rix Offline
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Destraex, I'm sure you know my handle over on the NA forum. I was pretty vocal over there at my disappointment with how "Open World" has been implemented.

I am disappointed because I would like to sail my ship properly, not just when there is combat. I also dislike the whole idea of sucking players out of the main world into a set piece, "instance". The whole thing is an immersion killer (and traveling around at Warp Speed all of the time is more than just a slight immersion killer for me). I would much rather have a smaller map (either scaled down or just a smaller geographic area).

The whole game design now seems to have been ripped right out of Sid Meir's Pirates!, with fancier graphics and some tweaks to the gameplay. I am assuming you have played this classic game?. At least "Pirates!" wasn't trying to be anything more than a light hearted game.

I'll get off my soapbox. Needless to say, I see this direction as a wasted opportunity. I have to admit that the idea of sailing these ships intrigued me as much, if not more than just fighting with them.

Ho Hum.. pass the grog!


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people.
Carl Sagan
#4137176 - 06/21/15 05:29 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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A few MMOs have attempted to not use instances for combat, but even then, they have compromises. Battleground Europe uses a half scale map of western Europe, and allows mobile spawn points close to the front for infantry soldiers. EVE uses Jumpgates, etc. They all have something to "warp" players to the action.

The fact of the matter is, most players can only play for a few hours at a time. Spending several hours getting from point A to point B is not going to work. The other option, shrinking the map to 1/20 or 1/50 scale, so players can get to a destination or find combat in a reasonable time, would probably not people happy, either.

#4137205 - 06/21/15 08:45 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Paul Rix]  
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Destraex Offline
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Paul a lot of people are complaining about this direction. So not sure of your handle sorry. I imagine most want an RPG not a combat simulator.
But yes for me it's all about combat simulation... it was never about pirate RPG, the game was never about that.
A lot of people want that, a lot of people want some sort of sword dance simulator built into it. It's not that game.
And I for one am fine with it as that was the sort of thing the devs always said it was not going to be.

This is more a realistic version of world of tanks with an open world and an economy to get more immersive combat instances.

But yeah... your soap box is fine... each to their own. My fingers are crossed the devs do not bow to pressure and end up going all RPG and leaving the realism to one side in favour of duels and shore leave.

I am big into historical naval warfare... not so big into the mythical world of pirates and the heroes therein. Which a lot of people expect every sailing game to be. I always knew half the population would want a pirates ahoy or sid meyer style role play game and the other half would be more the wargamer type like me that would want a first person combat simulator with some padding in the open world to make that combat meaningful.

The game was NEVER meant to be this:

Last edited by Destraex; 06/21/15 08:55 AM.
#4137574 - 06/22/15 06:20 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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Well here's the thing... I seem to agree with both sides of this argument! ( there's a first )

I have been very disappointed with how the open world has been implemented ( speed boat type speeds ) but also accept... It's a game. So you can not have real time ship sailing times if you want to have an engaging game experience.

Well I'm not a developer or have a huge intellect that can come up with an ingenious compromise, I sure hope someone can though, as the open world experience is sadly lacking at the moment. The whole promise of having an "open world" was to experience the joys of sailing and discovering the various locations, the thrill of spotting sails on the horizon, closing then making the choice as to wether to engage or not, etc.

The only thing I can think of is "somehow" changing the speed of the ships in open world, yet retaining their actual movement rates. How you would achieve that I have no idea I'm afraid, but I really hope someone can come up with a credible solution that would retain the style of the game that is currently only in the "instanced" part. I.e a realistic yet engaging game.

Last edited by Ratcatcher; 06/24/15 05:04 PM.
#4140367 - 06/28/15 01:25 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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Destraex Offline
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This video is a nice summation and experience of the way open world is implemented in naval action.... worth a look for those interested.
If any of you have wondered... here is a early impression of the open world and you can see the time compression I have been saying people are hating but is a necessary evil.

#4140421 - 06/28/15 07:13 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Ratcatcher]  
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Originally Posted By: Ratcatcher

The only thing I can think of is "somehow" changing the speed of the ships in open world, yet retaining their actual movement rates.


Wouldn't that be a downscaled map?

#4140430 - 06/28/15 09:02 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: paf_eaf310]  
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Originally Posted By: paf_eaf310
Wouldn't that be a downscaled map?


Probably, but that wasn't what I was getting at. I wouldn't want a down scaled map, I would like to keep the actual size of the map but adjust the animation of the ships so that they appear to move slower than the presently are.

Kind of like doing the correct time/distance calculations but then deviding by half so that your movement calculations are still correct but the animation speed of the ships moving through water is just scaled back. ( as I said, I'm not a genius so I'm sure much cleverer people than me have tried to come with a solution to this. )

I'm just saying this as I love the concept of the game, I just don't much care for its implementation at this present time.

Last edited by Ratcatcher; 06/28/15 09:09 AM.
#4141094 - 06/29/15 11:32 PM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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Ratcatcher I hear what you are saying. That would be completey strange. Most of the problem here would be trying to sync those at compressed speed and those at real speed. I mean how do ships interact with each other at different speeds. One ship would be popping in and out of existence or whizzing by.

Last edited by Destraex; 06/29/15 11:37 PM.
#4141156 - 06/30/15 03:02 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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You would have to have some sort of "warp" bubble that would automatically slow down ships to "normal" speed once they get within a certain radius of another ship/battle/landmark/etc.

That would still be problematic as someone could call for help from a ship on the other side of the map, reinforcements could conceivably arrive in an unrealistically quick time frame while the battle was still on going.

#4141166 - 06/30/15 03:39 AM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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That's definitely a tricky issue and I too feel like I can agree with both sides of the argument. I love the sailing simulation engine that these guys have built, and I'd love to feel that this engine is also used sometime when just navigating around, perhaps in an optional bubble world around ports when leaving and arriving - I used to love sailing for a few minutes in real time while leaving a port in the old Sea Dog/Age of Pirates games to immerse myself in the sailing, then off I went in warped mode - this, of course, worked because of the single player gameplay. It's not easy to port this sort of mechanism to a multiplayer only mode. I don't mind so much having instances, so maybe it would be nice to have to sail through a storm instance or a port from time to time (either as a random event or optional mode with added reward). As it is now, people into battles will probably get their content of great sailing sim, but people like me who were hoping to go merchant will only experience the warped mode with the occasional battle (or running away from a battle) to sail in an immersive way.

Last edited by FlyingMonkey; 06/30/15 03:39 AM.
#4141773 - 07/01/15 04:32 PM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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Paul Rix Offline
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This whole problem is one of the reasons I generally shy away from multiplayer these days. With a single player game I can play it in the way I want to.
I am still hopeful that this game will turn out well, but the open world implementation is still very disappointing. I will give the game a break for a few months and then check back. Right now I have lost all motivation to spend time with it.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people.
Carl Sagan
#4142111 - 07/02/15 01:12 PM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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Same thoughts here Paul. I really like the ships, sailing and combat. But a proper singleplayer where I can play in a way I want to (which could also feature a worldmap with real-environment combat) would be the selling point to me.

#4142116 - 07/02/15 01:24 PM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: paf_eaf310]  
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Originally Posted By: paf_eaf310
Same thoughts here Paul. I really like the ships, sailing and combat. But a proper singleplayer where I can play in a way I want to (which could also feature a worldmap with real-environment combat) would be the selling point to me.


+1

#4142217 - 07/02/15 05:04 PM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: trindade]  
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Originally Posted By: trindade
Originally Posted By: paf_eaf310
Same thoughts here Paul. I really like the ships, sailing and combat. But a proper singleplayer where I can play in a way I want to (which could also feature a worldmap with real-environment combat) would be the selling point to me.


+1


+2

#4142259 - 07/02/15 06:19 PM Re: NAVAL ACTION - Pre-Order up. [Re: Destraex]  
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Paul Rix Offline
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At least I'm not the only one who feel this way. ahoy


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people.
Carl Sagan
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