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#4131772 - 06/10/15 12:09 PM Re: Offical BoS forum ***** [Re: Ami7b5]  
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Rama Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ami7b5
40.192 players online, 1022 battles in War Thunder ATM.


Yes, Air Quakes painted in WWII skins isn't dead. WWII CFS is.

#4131781 - 06/10/15 12:46 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: Rama]  
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Originally Posted By: Rama
Originally Posted By: Ami7b5
40.192 players online, 1022 battles in War Thunder ATM.


Yes, Air Quakes painted in WWII skins isn't dead. WWII CFS is.


That premise certainly hasn't been proven by BoS, the weirdest avant garde flying game ever produced. The only way your premise can be tested is through the release of a CFS similar to something successful like the original IL-2 series. What I think is dead is Albert's fever dream vision of a CFS called BoS. You've got to admit its atypical, and some atypical things like 3 wheeled cars just don't catch on.


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#4131790 - 06/10/15 12:56 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: Blade_Meister]  
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Originally Posted By: Blade_Meister
...............


Calm down man.. was all that necessary? Why does everything have to get so personal over here.. d@mn!

You act as if I keep trying to pass BoS off as some perfect product.

I am certain that the bad press against BoS has slowed some sales just as it did with CoD .. and IMO.. that hurts the genre.. We may not call WT a sim but for all intents and purposes WT, IL2, BoS, CoD, DCS are all parts of the same genre. The decisions that the developer teams of both CoD and BoS made.. caused the bulk of the problems that these sims had/have during their first year of existence.. That is an undeniable fact that I have never been in dispute of as it relates to BoS. I have never denied it's flaws and have been very vocal from day one of the shortcomings of this sim, both here and on the official forums.

All I am saying is that the discord hurts the genre in the long run.. and IMO it does.. Read the rest of my posts in this thread before you jump down my @ss in a tirade about one part of any one post. IMO there is a reason why there are only 3 developer supported sim teams that I know of.. Gaijin, DCS and 1CGS as opposed to the way it was a decade ago.. That is all I am saying..


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#4131798 - 06/10/15 01:17 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: Blade_Meister]  
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Originally Posted By: Blade_Meister
Originally Posted By: Bearcat99
WT is filling that flying game niche..The simmer niche is harder to fill because it's almost like trying to feed people who may or may not kill you if the food is not cooked to their liking..

I agree with NSU .. Like it or don't like it.. but the active campaign against BoS only hurts the entire genre at this point.. The nastiness.. the drama.. the personal attacks .. all of that foolishness hurts the entire genre..

I am not saying that folks should just blindly buy whatever gets tossed their way.. just that they should not seek to actively destroy any part of it either.. which is what has happened in BoS.. It is a very interesting dynamic and I highly recommend that anyone who is not privvy to the history of this behavior in the sim community go to the 1C Cliffs of Dover forum and read some of the stuff posted there between 2011 and 2013.. You will see some familiar faces and some folks have changed their names... or left the genre altogether.. Interesting reading.. and the thing is.. while it is absolutely true that if the developers of ____________ had not made some of the decisions they did the sim would be doing a lot better today.. I left the name blank because either of the premier WWII sims could apply to that .. It's just that BoS still has full developer support.. but the sim community played a hand in the demise of CoD as well as much of the inactivity in BoS... I remember when Oleg stopped coming to ORR at UBI.. part of it was the reception he would often get when he would come there..

Some folks have this hindsight view of those days.. but they were no cakewalk either and som of the same stuff thayt goes on with BoS today.. went on with CoD 4 years ago and IL2 before it as well it is just that IL2 got so much more right and it was in the right place at the right time..



You are so full of yourself. The only active Campaign going on is the remove any criticism, hide, delete, lock or ban Campaign going on in the BOS Official Forum and the Steam BOS Forum. You keep trying to build BOS up as a Great Flight SIm that is only going to get better and better and better, when you don't know that and that is basically false advertising, especially based on the Dev teams acknowledgement of not addressing the Communities main concerns. Community requests for Sp content,a real Campaign, Historical Career, Historical Medals, a pilot character, squad mates and tracking of yours and the Squads achievements and losses, to name a few, and Graphics adjustments, some semblance of a war going on for Stalingrad on the ground in the Volga and in the air, more than 5 ground units plus 5 trucks and a dozen planes in the air and maybe a new engine while you are at it, since the DNE doesn't seem to be able to do it without killing the FPS to unplayable levels. How about something really original, oh say like maybe being able to host a multiplayer room for you and your friends right from inside the game like almost every other Flight Sim has? You basically are trying to doop people into buying BOS with unsubstantiated promises of future greatness and that is just wrong.
The only thing going on over here is "calling a Spade a Spade". By holding this DEV Teams feet to the fire, by discussing the bait and switch, the lock down, the lack of quality content, and putting it in print where it won't be deleted(even if the thread is locked) we have already gotten the "Unlocks" released and mention that the Custom Graphics setting could be released later. You seem to think that shoving more money at 1C/777 will get the changes that customers want. All you have to do is do a little reading at the ROF Forum and see that that is not true. 1C/777 are going to do what they want to do regardless of what popular customer opinion says. This is what is destroying the genre for them(1C/777), their blind headstrong charge through the China shop. If this is the best they are willing to do, what BOS is, I hope they do fail because it will be nobody's fault but their own( I have never said that before, but it is the Truth, IMHO). Maybe you should cut this post, delete it from here and post it on the BOS and BOS Steam Forums? You will probably find a bunch of Pansy, Kool Aid drinking listeners there. I just don't see anyone with even a Little Sense buying what you posted here. If the Genre gets ruined and dies as you predict maybe a Phoenix will rise from the ashes and take a look at what makes a FLIGHT SIM fun, replayable, immersive and user friendly and build one. Each time I read you making this same post it makes me a little bit madder and helps me remember what a Steaming Pile of $#!t that I received for my 99$. You keep stirring that pot and I will keep helping people to realize what the smell is and where it is coming from. Just to make it clear for you, it is coming from the Steaming Pile of BOS. Is BOS an acronym used by 1C/777 meaning, BULL OF SHI#& ? It certainly seems applicable to me. If you were trying to strike a nerve with someone with this post, DING, DING, DING, give that man a Kewpie doll. Your post is complete RUBBISH IMHO. WELL ALRIGHTY THEN! duh

S!Blade<><



This. That post sums up the situation nicely.

#4131800 - 06/10/15 01:20 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: Veteran66]  
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Originally Posted By: NSU
Originally Posted By: Rama
If there's something to face, it should be more the sad but quite evident conclusion: The WWII combat flight sim genre is dead (and it probably was before BoS release)... and what we see on this forum (and others), is only the convulsions of a dead genre


unfortunately you're right Rama

I am grateful that 1C777 is working on a WW2 flight sim title


I tend to fall into this category as well. I am beginning to think that what we might call hardcore historical CFS enthusiast are in fact a small target group and most probably why the Dev's missed the mark. I was always hoping for somebody to target our group and produce a real CFS...with all the historical trimmings..But the price, would be double what it is now, I'm afraid. That's surely the reason Loft and company tried to reach out to a mid-range target audience...say in between the two extremes. Obviously, that group did not exist to their expectations.

In the process...the tension of failing to meet our expectations....well we have some unhappy campers..Like Heinkill said...a small drop in the ocean of simmers to be sure.

So, here we are.....Some are not willing to make concessions to BOS, and some are, some voice their disappointments some don't some even criticize those that are critical of the campaign, but have never played the campaign themselves....it just goes on and on...But for every back and forth...there is a poster with an opposing view....does that make anyone more privy to post than the other?




#4131806 - 06/10/15 01:33 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: JagerNeun]  
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Originally Posted By: JagdNeun
I am beginning to think that what we might call hardcore historical CFS enthusiast are in fact a small target group and most probably why the Dev's missed the mark.


I don't know what the target group who bought the original IL-2 series would be called, but that series sold over 1.5 million units by all accounts. I would think that would be a good base to build on, rather than to abandon it and start over like they did with BoS.


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#4131810 - 06/10/15 01:45 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: lokitexas]  
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I've posted this before somewhere in my endless ranting...but the biggest improvement for me, doesn't have much to do with the gaming engine...or anything really technical. They have overlooked the historical side of this game..the intricate combat rosters...unit markings, base assignments, plane allocations, combat briefings, historical medals/awards, everything that makes you feel like you belong in there.....taking off and going out on that mission. That just takes some time to create...and maybe it can be implemented in the not so distant future. That for me, would make a big difference.....

Progressive improvements could start with....a more detailed combat parser.....listing the entire squads stats...And as silly as it sounds....if I could look at that old chalkboard I used to see and track my unit somehow....it would be awesome.

I do believe times have changed and history...well it's just a base for people to go out and shoot things down...have some strategy, an Aces High kind of environment...I haven't played any WT...but I suppose while we might down their FM, DM, they at least have a full scale battlefield to go out on patrol. They have unit cohesiveness, large scale operations...a lot of situational awareness gameplay. Right?

#4131822 - 06/10/15 01:58 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Rama Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bucksnort
That premise certainly hasn't been proven by BoS, the weirdest avant garde flying game ever produced. The only way your premise can be tested is through the release of a CFS similar to something successful like the original IL-2 series.

I said it was dead before BoS release (that there's no CFS market). Wether BoS plays (or not) in the CFS category isn't relevant to prove or disprove this assertion.

Originally Posted By: Bucksnort
I don't know what the target group who bought the original IL-2 series would be called, but that series sold over 1.5 million units by all accounts. I would think that would be a good base to build on, rather than to abandon it and start over like they did with BoS.

It isn't a good base... since none or almost none of the "1.5 million custommers" would buy today the same game. Even if you had the same exact fonctionnalities, they would at minima ask for "up to date" graphics, DM, FM etc... which will make the product much more costly, and so discourage a lot of them.... and supposed you had an "up to date" product with all the IL2 fonctionnalities, it would still be not enough for most, they would want stronger dope.
CoD was a failure... and it was mostly an "up to date" IL2. Of course it was buggy at release, but I don't think it's the main reason of the failure... the reason is IMO that:
- the appeal for WWII CFS has lowered in the last 20 years (and it will be lower and lower with the WWII becoming more and more a "thing of the past")
- the remnant enthousiasts wants more
- the smaller potential player crowd, combined with the higher expectations, leads to a product cost which is unnaceptable for most.... so the "dead market".

I don't tell you there's alternative solution, that the dev should find a proper way, a new "economical model", et... no I think solutions don't exist... it's dead.

Last edited by Rama; 06/10/15 01:59 PM.
#4131825 - 06/10/15 02:00 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: lokitexas]  
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Rama....on a side note...is "circle the wagons" a french saying as well? biggrin Or is your English just really good? And did you say something about some photos of an old airbase out your way?

#4131837 - 06/10/15 02:10 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: lokitexas]  
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A small number of users putting in thousands of hours of flying is not equal or better to a large number of users putting in dozens of hours. Because BoS isn't pay-per-hour.
Revenue is per-user, so you need a lot of them. The ones not playing likely aren't going to buy more. Sure the few flying a lot will, but you can't charge them $10,000 each for BoM.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4131845 - 06/10/15 02:16 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Originally Posted By: Bucksnort
Originally Posted By: JagdNeun
I am beginning to think that what we might call hardcore historical CFS enthusiast are in fact a small target group and most probably why the Dev's missed the mark.


I don't know what the target group who bought the original IL-2 series would be called, but that series sold over 1.5 million units by all accounts. I would think that would be a good base to build on, rather than to abandon it and start over like they did with BoS.

It's interesting to note that the most commonly owned other game for BoS owners is Cliffs of Dover. 48% own it.
The most commonly owned other game for IL-2 1946 owners is Metro 2033. Cliffs of Dover isn't even in the list of the top 100 shown on steamspy.
Why? Both games sold equal numners on Steam so it's not for the disparity seen with BoS. I though maybe it's the system requirements but Mertro 2033 is a beast. Maybe Cliffs missed the "mark"? It looks like it didn't get the 1946 market at all.
12% of Cliffs owners have 1946 (on steam) but that's not as relevant since Steam isn't the only place to get 1946.

Last edited by SharpeXB; 06/10/15 02:22 PM.

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#4131853 - 06/10/15 02:25 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: JagerNeun]  
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Rama Offline
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Originally Posted By: JagdNeun
Rama....on a side note...is "circle the wagons" a french saying as well? biggrin Or is your English just really good? And did you say something about some photos of an old airbase out your way?

No, in French we would say "avoir l'esprit de clocher" (parochialism), which is a quite different but more related to our history.
About the photos, I took but never uploaded them... I should do it, thanks for the reminder. I'll try to do it this WE.

Last edited by Rama; 06/10/15 02:26 PM.
#4131854 - 06/10/15 02:25 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: lokitexas]  
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So...Sharpe are you agreeing that perhaps the market is on the downswing then for CFS, right?

#4131856 - 06/10/15 02:27 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: lokitexas]  
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Thanks Rama....I suppose you all circled the wagons for some Napoleonic conflict then....or perhaps a valiant last stand. If you think about the photos that would be great, but no problem...I only need a few...

#4131864 - 06/10/15 02:42 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: JagerNeun]  
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Originally Posted By: JagdNeun
So...Sharpe are you agreeing that perhaps the market is on the downswing then for CFS, right?


I think that is the case.. When you consider the people flying IL2 on HL in 2005 .. add that to the Warbirds, Aces High, Fighter Ace crowds which were still pretty active in 2005.. and the MSCFS (1, 2 & 3 because all had a following still in 2005) crowds.. and the folks flying other sims like Rowans, LOMAC and even Falcon.. and the civilian sims like MSFS and X Plane .. There was a huge community.. Noiw when you look at the numbers for CoD, BoS and 46 combined on any given night .. those numbers would have been a relatively slow night on HL ... It hopefully will not stay that wayu.. but that is what it seems like now.

This is why for me.. it is better to support the genre.. and by all means if you are not happy with what you bought don't toss another cent at it but you can still support the genre by being honest and encouraging folks to try it because obviously some folks like it. I have told several people to either give RoF a go since it is free to try with two AC and/or wait for a sale of BoS and buy the Standard Edition fr $30 and if you like it then get the Premium AC .. I tell folks to get CoD and even 46.. I would never tell anyone not to buy any of those products because all of them have a role in promoting the genre.. For me the cost of BoM was not a problem.. for others basd on what they got with BoS it is not an option .. but you have to admit.. at $30 BoS is not bad for a current generation flight sim under any circumstances.

I don't feel I got ripped off fore my $90. Am I happy with everything? No of course not... but I am happy with a lot of things.. Others may not feel that way.. that does not make either of us right or wrong.


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#4131866 - 06/10/15 02:46 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: JagerNeun]  
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Originally Posted By: JagdNeun
So...Sharpe are you agreeing that perhaps the market is on the downswing then for CFS, right?

I don't see why it should downsize. The design and features of the games themselves need to change compared to the old days that's for certain. The greater realism that PCs are capable of today makes games with dozens or hundreds of aircraft in them impossible or at least not possible to the degree of quality this market expects. But the fun factor for the player today is vastly better than it was in the "golden age". Players have big screens, cool head tracking devices like TrackIR, or Oculus Rift. The immersion and realism is many times better than the old games. So I don't see why the genre would lose its appeal at all. It's also true that other types of games have gotten better as well and maybe they just steal away the audience. In an era old sucky games did flight sims just suck less than sucky shooter games? Why were flight sims so popular in an era when frankly playing them would have been an ordeal?
What was the attraction of flying a plane with no head tracking on a 14" 4:3 screen? I'll bet there's 2-3x the number of potential customers to sell a flight sim to today vs 2001.
The good old days are today.


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#4131871 - 06/10/15 02:52 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: SharpeXB]  
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: JagdNeun
So...Sharpe are you agreeing that perhaps the market is on the downswing then for CFS, right?

I don't see why it should downsize. The design and features of the games themselves need to change compared to the old days that's for certain. The greater realism that PCs are capable of today makes games with dozens or hundreds of aircraft in them impossible or at least not possible to the degree of quality this market expects. But the fun factor for the player today is vastly better than it was in the "golden age". Players have big screens, cool head tracking devices like TrackIR, or Oculus Rift. The immersion and realism is many times better than the old games. So I don't see why the genre would lose its appeal at all. It's also true that other types of games have gotten better as well and maybe they just steal away the audience. In an era old sucky games did flight sims just suck less than sucky shooter games? Why were flight sims so popular in an era when frankly playing them would have been an ordeal?
What was the attraction of flying a plane with no head tracking on a 14" 4:3 screen? I'll bet there's 2-3x the number of potential customers to sell a flight sim to today vs 2001.
The good old days are today.


I think fun is a relative term because for some fun means more than just immersion and realism. I agree with you about other games getting so much better and capturing some of the sim audience.. I don't think it has to stay that way.. and perhaps there is an ebb and flow to this.. but it is all about the bottom line.. and if developers do not see a way to reap a return on their investment then they will not make sims.


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#4131880 - 06/10/15 03:02 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: lokitexas]  
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If I knew then what I know now, springs to mind whenever I think of BoS... I'd certainly never have bought the thing, I've pretty much wasted my money.
One should never ever make concessions for a product, if it doesn't deliver what 'you' the purchaser wants, then it's pretty much worthless.

If it gives you pleasure however, then you have success smile (it's all down to the individual, we are all different)

BoSBoM will not fail because of what people say about it, or whether or not it has brilliant reviews, it will stand or fall due to it's own merit, and that is down to the developers, no one else...

#4131883 - 06/10/15 03:03 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: Trooper117]  
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Originally Posted By: Trooper117
If I knew then what I know now, springs to mind whenever I think of BoS... I'd certainly never have bought the thing, I've pretty much wasted my money.
One should never ever make concessions for a product, if it doesn't deliver what 'you' the purchaser wants, then it's pretty much worthless.

If it gives you pleasure however, then you have success smile (it's all down to the individual, we are all different)

BoSBoM will not fail because of what people say about it, or whether or not it has brilliant reviews, it will stand or fall due to it's own merit, and that is down to the developers, no one else...


Ultimately I agree .. Always have..


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#4131888 - 06/10/15 03:07 PM Re: Offical BoS forum [Re: Bearcat99]  
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Originally Posted By: Bearcat99
Originally Posted By: Trooper117
If I knew then what I know now, springs to mind whenever I think of BoS... I'd certainly never have bought the thing, I've pretty much wasted my money.
One should never ever make concessions for a product, if it doesn't deliver what 'you' the purchaser wants, then it's pretty much worthless.

If it gives you pleasure however, then you have success smile (it's all down to the individual, we are all different)

BoSBoM will not fail because of what people say about it, or whether or not it has brilliant reviews, it will stand or fall due to it's own merit, and that is down to the developers, no one else...


Ultimately I agree .. Always have..


Which is odd, considering you work very hard trying to keep what people say about it in check.

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