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#4100953 - 04/02/15 09:18 PM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: dburne]
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,187
Force10
I'm just a
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I'm just a
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,187
CA
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Jason has confirmed that the campaign for BOM will be the same style of campaign that BOS currently has.
Makes sense…they can just keep the existing template and plug in new aircraft and enemies. It's the easiest and quickest way to push something out the door.
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Oddball from Kelly's Heroes: "If we're late, it's cause we're dead"
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#4100966 - 04/02/15 09:59 PM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: Trooper117]
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 683
dburne
Member
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Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 683
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I was hoping that maybe after the negative pushback on the BOS campaign, they might re-think it's design and do something better with BOM, more of what many of us long time flight simmers would consider a traditional campaign.
Granted, I did not have a lot of high hopes they would actually do that, but I was keeping some hope.
Understand while I have been highly critical of BOS since it's release, with the unlocks first and namely in the SP arena for me, I can not say I have totally given up on it. I still have BOS ready to run anytime I want, and am hoping for at some point some good user created missions or better yet campaigns.
I was somewhat surprised they are sticking with the groundhog day style of campaign, but as the above poster mentioned, I guess the easiest for them to do.
Don
EVGA X-79 Dark MB|I-7 4820K@4.50 GHz|EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3|16GB Corsair Dominator PC2133 Ram|Oculus Rift CV1|Virpil T-50 stick, Warthog throttle|MFG Crosswind Pedals
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#4101022 - 04/02/15 11:58 PM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: Trooper117]
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,859
Extreme_One
Mission Builder
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Mission Builder
Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,859
Southampton England
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Why do they have to be clowns though? That is one thing I just do not understand about some of the stuff that goes on around here.. which is why I rarely come here anymore.. Why does the rhetoric have to be so condescending... ?
They are clowns because they have no idea how to market a product. Marketing isn't just about posting rhetoric on a web page. It's about engaging with their audience. I used their forum to explain why I'm not interested in spending $80 on their latest product. I also explained why I no longer frequent their forums and the clowns deleted my post. I broke no rules. It's censorship. Pure and simple and it's shameful. It's as shameful as paying people to post positive comments on forums on their behalf. If their product was good enough they wouldn't have needed to resort to this. And if their product was good they wouldn't need to be so afraid of a post like mine to have decided that deleting it was the best course of action. I'm ashamed to have been such a vocal advocate all those months ago. Unfortunately it seems the developers really are clowns and their current crop of advocates are just as bad, with the moderating team equally culpable.
Last edited by Extreme_One; 04/03/15 12:06 AM.
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#4101091 - 04/03/15 05:53 AM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: Extreme_One]
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,806
Bearcat99
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,806
USA
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Why do they have to be clowns though? That is one thing I just do not understand about some of the stuff that goes on around here.. which is why I rarely come here anymore.. Why does the rhetoric have to be so condescending... ?
They are clowns because they have no idea how to market a product. Marketing isn't just about posting rhetoric on a web page. It's about engaging with their audience. I used their forum to explain why I'm not interested in spending $80 on their latest product.
I also explained why I no longer frequent their forums and the clowns deleted my post.I broke no rules. It's censorship. Pure and simple and it's shameful. It's as shameful as paying people to post positive comments on forums on their behalf. If their product was good enough they wouldn't have needed to resort to this. And if their product was good they wouldn't need to be so afraid of a post like mine to have decided that deleting it was the best course of action. I'm ashamed to have been such a vocal advocate all those months ago. Unfortunately it seems the developers really are clowns and their current crop of advocates are just as bad, with the moderating team equally culpable. What post are you talking about... as far as I know the onoly two posts you have made in the BoM thread are this one and this one as far as I know. If you made another post I did not see it. You need to keep in mind that I am not the only person on those boards who can delete posts.. and you also need to take note that my style of moderating is not to delete/hide posts.. for this very reason.. So if you have an issue with someone it is not me. I cannot comment on your post because I never saw it.. although you sent me a nastygram suggesting I'll "claim" I didn't see it.. Well I didn't.. I left the house and for the record it is not hidden so whatever it was if it is not the two posts I linked it is gone. I left the thread before noon ... and I do have a life.. complete with a job.. where I get paid to put up with a certain amount of BS .. and commitments in other areas.. so I don't sit around waiting for someone to complain about BoS so I can smack them down.. so No I don't know what you are talking about.. In addition.. and again.. I never saw your post so I have no idea what was in it... but you go into a thread announcing the pre order of the sequel to the current product.. and after this post by the admin: Personal insults will be deleted. Knock it off. .. you post something that is obviously at the very least combative.. as you have admittedly done in the past just to get a rise.. and then cry foul when you post gets whacked.. Whatever man.. you don't want to post there that is your business no sweat off my nose .. but don't go dragging me into your stuff by insinuation or otherwise. I am not the only person on that forum who can edit, delete, or remove threads.. and there are enough posts on that forum as I type this that are very critical of BoS .. so call it whatever you like.. but leave me out of it.
Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
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#4101155 - 04/03/15 11:52 AM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: Trooper117]
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 683
dburne
Member
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Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 683
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Unfortunately this does happen from time to time. I have seen it myself over there a few times over the last few months.
I am not going to name names or suggest who might be doing it, because I do not know. But I have seen threads that are critical get started that get deleted or hidden , while some really nasty things posted by the regular supporters are allowed to stand.
It is their house, they can run it as they see fit, but yes there is an obvious bias that has been going on over there that really came out after the release of the product.
Don
EVGA X-79 Dark MB|I-7 4820K@4.50 GHz|EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3|16GB Corsair Dominator PC2133 Ram|Oculus Rift CV1|Virpil T-50 stick, Warthog throttle|MFG Crosswind Pedals
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#4101223 - 04/03/15 02:18 PM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: Trooper117]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,771
Para_Bellum
Oberkriegkaboomführer
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Oberkriegkaboomführer
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,771
Germany
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Without a complete overhaul of the campaign system and an IL2/DCS-style mission editor I'm sorry to say I won't be interested.
"...late afternoon the Air Tasking Order came in [and] we found the A-10 part and we said, "We are going where!? We are doing what!?"
Capt. Todd Sheehy, Hog pilot, on receiving orders during Operation Desert Storm
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#4101550 - 04/04/15 05:47 AM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: Trooper117]
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14
unreasonable
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14
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My guess is that 1CGS is running on empty financially and they have no choice but to take the easy route and push out more easy to make content in the same style as BoS to pay the bills.
If you are satisfied with BoS for whatever reason, then BoM offers a little more variety on the same template. It is increasingly clear ,however, that the devs cannot or will not produce a historic/RP type campaign and this will have to come from outside the team.
This might not happen at all -or in my lifetime- so there seems little point in buying more content when BoS already has more planes than I can find the time or inclination to learn to fly well as it is. Although I probably would go for a Med module, love the scenery....
On the forum/moderating issues I have mixed feelings, and it is true that there is a double standard, but the bottom line is that a forum maintained by a developer is a part of its marketing mix. People constantly spamming topics with negative comments is not going to go down well anywhere - this comment not aimed at Extreme_One, but there has been a fair bit of this by people. No-one is going to delete praise.
I have found that criticism is not censored, if it is not emotively phrased, especially if accompanied by practical suggestions for incremental improvement. What is true is that the habitual "defenders" in the forum are quick to jump onto perceived "threats" and derail even constructive, fact based threads, which is annoying. I actually think that the new rule on FM debates is a good idea as it will force them into a structure that will be harder to derail. Meanwhile people can still comment casually on the FM by saying something like "I observe X which is not what I expected, what is happening" rather than "X is arcade, BoS suks".
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#4101556 - 04/04/15 07:24 AM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: Trooper117]
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 885
Desode
Ps3 & 360 GT : DESODE
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Ps3 & 360 GT : DESODE
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 885
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The horrible SP , has soured me on this whole thing.
I really thought that BOS and at the very least this second installment (BOM) would head more in the direction of a better SP experience.
If they just would have made the Sp like ROF's SP I would play it a lot.
At this point in time, I don't see them getting anymore of my money until things change with the SP aspect of the game.
That means either they fix it themselves or we start to see some Good User created SP campaigns.
I'm very glad that they made the change on the unlocks, and that was a step in the right direction but the horrible SP aspect of this sim is a real killer for a massive part of the sim market.
I get that they need to turn over capitol quickly but after everything that has happened in the BOS past it's hard for a lot of us (SP fans) to give them another chance.
Desode
Forumrunners.com When you crave teamwork at the Highest Level ! Were waiting for you !
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#4101559 - 04/04/15 08:25 AM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: Trooper117]
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,148
Georgio
Member
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Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,148
Hockley, UK
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Hate to,say it, but unless I see a cast iron guaranteed single player experience that is better than BOS, then I'm simply not interested. Decent campaigns were the order of the day twenty years ago and with today's expertise and horse-power this should be the standard not some luxury.
They're just being cheap, expecting the community to plug the gaps for free, well it's just not on I'm afraid not this time.
Simply, either do it right and raise the bar, or don't do it at all.
Last edited by Georgio; 04/04/15 08:27 AM.
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#4101667 - 04/04/15 06:04 PM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: Georgio]
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 683
dburne
Member
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Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 683
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Hate to,say it, but unless I see a cast iron guaranteed single player experience that is better than BOS, then I'm simply not interested. Decent campaigns were the order of the day twenty years ago and with today's expertise and horse-power this should be the standard not some luxury.
They're just being cheap, expecting the community to plug the gaps for free, well it's just not on I'm afraid not this time.
Simply, either do it right and raise the bar, or don't do it at all. As a SP only guy, pretty much sums up my opinion as well. If only they had adapted the ROF campaign model, except expand on it even further ( think PWCG). I have said once they got rid of the unlocks, I would give it another go. I have yet to do that, guess I need to go in and activate the unlocks and give the SP campaign another try, but everything I have read about it does absolutely nothing to entice me to do so. I guess I will here in the next few weeks just to at least give it a fair shot. Level ups though do nothing for me. Now that they have confirmed the BOM campaign will basically be a replica of the BOS campaign, I sure am not going to pre-order. Nothing about their campaign system excites me in the least. I follow the BOS forums closely, and am pretty sure I have yet to see a thread proclaiming how great the BOS campaign system is. Imho, 777/1CGS has really missed the mark with this sim for Single Player. And what is really amazing is, I think they know that, but their heels are dug in to keep it to Loft's vision. Maybe they are counting on the community to develop the great SP content it desperately needs, but the tools they have provided to do so, are rather complex and not many in the community can wrap their arms around it. It sorely nees a good SP base to start from, and a more intuitive FMB so more folks can get into it and develop some of this content they seem to be relying on. What is really ironic, they stated very early on, this would be mainly a SP focused sim, because that is where the numbers are...
Don
EVGA X-79 Dark MB|I-7 4820K@4.50 GHz|EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3|16GB Corsair Dominator PC2133 Ram|Oculus Rift CV1|Virpil T-50 stick, Warthog throttle|MFG Crosswind Pedals
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#4101783 - 04/05/15 02:30 AM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: unreasonable]
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 72
Sgigi
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 72
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My guess is that 1CGS is running on empty financially and they have no choice but to take the easy route and push out more easy to make content in the same style as BoS to pay the bills.
If you are satisfied with BoS for whatever reason, then BoM offers a little more variety on the same template. It is increasingly clear ,however, that the devs cannot or will not produce a historic/RP type campaign and this will have to come from outside the team.
This might not happen at all -or in my lifetime- so there seems little point in buying more content when BoS already has more planes than I can find the time or inclination to learn to fly well as it is. Although I probably would go for a Med module, love the scenery....
On the forum/moderating issues I have mixed feelings, and it is true that there is a double standard, but the bottom line is that a forum maintained by a developer is a part of its marketing mix. People constantly spamming topics with negative comments is not going to go down well anywhere - this comment not aimed at Extreme_One, but there has been a fair bit of this by people. No-one is going to delete praise.
I have found that criticism is not censored, if it is not emotively phrased, especially if accompanied by practical suggestions for incremental improvement. What is true is that the habitual "defenders" in the forum are quick to jump onto perceived "threats" and derail even constructive, fact based threads, which is annoying. I actually think that the new rule on FM debates is a good idea as it will force them into a structure that will be harder to derail. Meanwhile people can still comment casually on the FM by saying something like "I observe X which is not what I expected, what is happening" rather than "X is arcade, BoS suks".
Well they can't be happy with their steam sales. The data on this site is usually good, and even if it doesn't get everyone who bought it it does get close enough. http://steamspy.com/app/307960Just under 23,000 can't be anywhere near what they wanted. For comparison Clod has over 200k which reminds me of when loft aid they'd need to move at least 200k for the series to continue. I'd guess that they made their sales projections off of clod. http://steamspy.com/app/63950
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#4102204 - 04/06/15 12:57 PM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: Trooper117]
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
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Yes, but how many of those CloD owners bought the game long after release on sale? How many paid over $40 for it, which is what really matters? How many bought it before the series was dumped and 777 brought in to make BoS?
Drop BoS premium to $10 and you'll see a lot more sales, too. Also, almost every CloD owner is listed there. I don't know how many BoS owners have it off of Steam, but I know it's easily much more than have it on Steam.
Anyway, the main issue with the SP campaign right now is replayability. You can fly 1 or 2 missions and not notice anything is amiss. Fly a couple dozen and you'll get bored FAST.
The templates become obvious, the patterns predictable, and your only enjoyment comes from the actual AA combat or ground attack. It's not sustainable. I fly it on occasion, but not frequently. It needs more randomization, and not just a trigger for something random to happen in the SAME place EVERY mission.
It doesn't feel like I'm in the middle of a war, it feels like a war generated and presented to me that doesn't exist outside my view.
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#4102260 - 04/06/15 03:38 PM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: Jedi Master]
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 560
lokitexas
Member
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Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 560
San Antonio, TX.
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It doesn't feel like I'm in the middle of a war, it feels like a war generated and presented to me that doesn't exist outside my view.
The Jedi Master
Well, that's because it is. The way the engine works is exactly that way. Everything spawns around the player. Nothing is outside. You will not see smoke plumes from crashed aircraft or trucks flying back from a mission because 2 AI flights had a battle while you were elsewhere. That is why the "Action Point" in the campaign is so stupid. Fly to this point, this is where the enemy will spawn in, then fly to the "Exit Point" to complete. Just keep this in mind....they are happy and pleased with the SP portion. So much so that nothing will change in BoM.
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#4102445 - 04/07/15 01:03 AM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: dburne]
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
SharpeXB
Member
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Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
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If only they had adapted the ROF campaign model, except expand on it even further ( think PWCG). RoF wasn't launched originally with the Career Mode it has now, so expecting something right away from BoS that's as complex as that is a bit unrealistic. The RoF Career was launched several years after the game debuted. In fact the SP game modes RoF had initially were worse than what BoS has. No QM and just some scripted chapter campaigns. The Pat Wilson campaign for RoF wasn't made by 777. It was made by Pat Wilson. Obviously. So once again expecting 1CGS to replicate that when the developer didn't actually produce that for RoF isn't realistic either. The best SP content for Cliffs of Dover wasn't produced by 1C but by third parties as well. It's original SP game was lackluster. It's clear that there are many players who want this type of content for BoS/BoM so it's certain that campaigns of this style will eventually be produced for them, just like they have been for most other sims. Jason has stated several times he's interested in getting this created.
Last edited by SharpeXB; 04/07/15 01:04 AM.
Velocity Micro PC | Asus Z97-A | i7-4790K @4.7GHz | Corsair H80iGT Liquid CPU Cooler | 32GB DDR3-1600MHz Memory | EVGA GTX 1080 Ti SC 11GB | 240gb Intel 520 Series SSD | 850 W Corsair PSU | Windows 10 Home | Samsung U28D590D UHD 28" Monitor | Bose Companion 5 Speakers | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5
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#4102456 - 04/07/15 01:47 AM
Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Moscow Pre-Order Program
[Re: SharpeXB]
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 457
VMIalpha454
Member
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Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 457
Chattanooga, Tn
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...In fact the SP game modes RoF had initially were worse than what BoS has. No QM and just some scripted chapter campaigns.
The Pat Wilson campaign for RoF wasn't made by 777. It was made by Pat Wilson. Obviously. So once again expecting 1CGS to replicate that when the developer didn't actually produce that for RoF isn't realistic either.
The best SP content for Cliffs of Dover wasn't produced by 1C but by third parties as well. It's original SP game was lackluster. So, what you're saying is that 777 and 1C can't (or won't) provide what the majority of us want in a flight sim? Thanks for clearing that up, Sharpe. 
"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold."
1stLt. Clifton B. Cates, USMC
in Belleau Wood, 19 July 1918
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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