Agreed the SP experience is Meh at best. But remember back in CloD when NOTHING worked? We kinda have some rose tinted hindsight glasses.

I do agree and look forward to some new theaters for the Clod brand. But look at what just came out for BoS. The SMB. It has the makings of what an SP campaign builder could be. Early days still. The only wish i have is that the devs stay out of the way and let the community build amazing products.

As happened with our MP camapaign, right when AB and I figured out a system for doing something cool they dropped the unlocks bomb with no warning. It caused a lot of problems and trashed a whole lot of work.

No really, remind us, just when was that when "NOTHING worked"? I remember CloD being a mess at release but it did work. I'm not saying BoS doesn't work but I do find it odd that some of the lets say more ardent fans are just as revisionist sometimes and I don't know why when talking about the problems BoS has the discussion is often deflected to talk about other sims when they were released, the discussion is about BoS but more precisely a moderator wrongly accusing someone of slander, that is why this particular thread exists.

First release of CloD was completely unusable. Playable if limited to a couple of planes over the English Channel, but not near any land. It was 10 times the shambles that BoS is today.

But of course it was worse than BoS, it had to be, released much to early.

CloD: brand new, untested engine with still unknown limits.

BoS: ancient, trusty engine with relatively narrow limits (if they haven't changed much from RoF).

CloD reached beta status with the TF bugfixes, imo.

Still unknown limits? I can see the limits...it's not supported by the developers anymore and it's forever sealed in its current state save for a vaporware 2nd coming of the TF-messiah that will magically change it to the uber-sim that will transcend all designations of the word "game" and finally let the FAA allow you to log real flight hours while playing. I'm not sure why everyone is rock hard for the TF hype. New smoke, gun sounds, FM tweaks, and fire graphics wasn't what killed CloD, yet that's the brunt of the TF patch notes.

This thread is about to get real fun.

I'm sure CLOD was completely unusable on your computer, but it was the exact opposite on my highly optimized computer. COD was obviously unfinished, but it ran well enough on my system, that it was easy to see the sims potential. The complexity, options, and detail in COD's FMB were mind-blowing. BOS initially had the advantage of only having to create content for an existing game engine, but it could come back to haunt them if they don't upgrade the game engine at some point to DX10, or better. Both COD and BOS need a lot of work, especially in regards to the AI, but both sims are still a WIP, so anything's possible. That said IMHO the newer COD game engine has far more upside, especially now that Team Fusion has created the tools necessary to add and improve content.

Both CloD and BoS focus on a single theater and time period with similar size plane sets. The difference is that in CloD I can play community created campaigns by folks like Bolox, Heinkill or Desastersoft that tell a story of flying in WWII. BoS may have that type of community created content at some point if they set it up to allow for single missions to be strung into in-game campaigns. But right now chasing Cub Scout medals in BoS can't hold a candle to the immersive single player game play style in CloD. That's why many single players prefer CloD over BoS.




Instability, performance issues, and abandonment by 1C Company killed CloD commercially. TF fixed most of the performance and stability issues in CloD. Would I rather deal with the problems that CloD still has or chase Cub Scout badges in BoS? The answer to that is a no brainer for lots of folks.

"Chase cub scout badges because BoS is supported" is not a very strong selling point for single players.

Pre-loading screens containing novelized text that personifies my invisible pilot flying virtual WW2 aircraft isn't something I would call a campaign, nor is it the reason I would say a game is good/bad, but that's just me. I really don't see the fuss over CloD vs BoS campaigns...they're both mind-numbingly boring and predictable in every way. In any case, BoS can do campaigns, cooperative and adversarial MP. Not sure about SP, but that's not my thing and I never bothered to try/check. All the anti BoS guys were able to say it couldn't because no one had or obviously knew how to work the editor...well now that it's out, that's no longer a chip in the basket, unless one is not intelligent enough to figure it out.

Instability, performance issues (gamebreaking micro-stutters), and abandonment is still killing CloD...especially anyone on a W8 system. I guess that's ok for people that aren't going to upgrade their OS. Still not clear on why it's perceived that TF's tweaks have revolutionized the game, though...reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGShQsxiy1c#t=88

"Spitfire On My Tail" by Bolx (CloD) vs anything so far generated for BoS...no comparison (for instance). In Spitfire On My Tail I get to pretend I'm in WWII following a book written by a Luftwaffe pilot chapter by chapter. In the BoS single player campaign I get to pretend I'm in the Cub Scouts. Maybe we'll see this kind of content for BoS in the future...only time will tell. What's needed for BoS is the tools for the community to create in-game campaigns like in IL-2 1946 and CloD: linked missions for continuity, ability to create historic medals and award them, the ability to fly as a wingman as well as flight leader, and the ability to gain promotions in military ranks. Its important that prospective buyers know that none of this is in BoS at the present time. It is the stuff single players are looking for.

I don't know anything about the MP world anymore, but BoS is woeful for single players right now. Hopefully that aspect will improve over time.

It's nice to see you enjoy flight simming so much Abortedman

You are the glue that bonds our simming community.

I don't get it though, you just compared a 3rd party campaign to the, already discussed bland, BoS stock campaign. We should probably revisit this particular argument later (say a few months) as some 3rd Party people get their heads around how best to deliver a SP BoS campaign.

The reason I brought up CloD was it was mentioned earlier in this thread. When it first came out it was unusable as a product. As opposed to BoS which is just un-enjoyable at SP. Looking at that I see a Big difference. That being said we still have a long way to go for things to be even comparable. Apples vs oranges right now.

the way I still see all of this is

CloD, got some tools needs some more development

BoS, got some tools needs some more development

WIN WIN for me if both reach their potential. But hey by then WT might have rounded the corner of "closer to sim in sim mode" status.

EDIT: So as I have just returned in the past week to the forums, I jsut noticed this. over on the main forums
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/13912-veteranenmissions/

Its already begun, little sprouts of SP campaigns springing up through the cold winter snow. I haven't tried it yet, but I will try to get to it this week.

One thing I don't understand:
If I 'love' one sim why would I need to bash another one(s)?

I have a plenty (really plenty) of them and each one has something unique that gives me some enjoyment.

I am with you there. Opinions of different sims is very much a subjective thing. I too have plenty to keep me occupied, and really I don't have the time to play them all as much as I would like.

As a SP only guy, my preference still remains TF Cliffs, some very excellent user created campaigns out there. Yes it has it's weaknesses where it is broke in some areas, but with each update TF manages to make it a little better, and hopefully they will continue to do so. While I have not flown BOS much at all in the past several weeks, I am remaining very hopeful that there will be some great user created campaigns for it as well that I can get into and enjoy very much. I might even have a go at the FME now that it is released, but have my doubts I will be able to wrap my arms around it. And of course there is still 1946 that I enjoy, and looking forward to the upcoming CFM.

I am having a lot of fun with PWCG in ROF, and enjoy DCS very much as well. Really looking forward to DCS 2.0 and seeing what it will bring.

In regards to combat flight simming, which is the only gaming I do on my PC, I have way more than enough to choose from, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

For the same reason that people will support one team and bash the others. For the same reason that people will say their country is good and bash all others. For the same reason that people say their religion is correct and bash the others. For the same reason people say those with their skin color/features are alright and bash the others.

Humanity WANTS to find differences and create us vs them situations. The more homogenous the environment, the smaller the differences will be, but they will still find them and use them.

The day BoS was announced was the day CloD suddenly went from crap to diamond. No clickable cockpits? Arcade crap! (even though Il-2 1946 was never called arcade crap, and never had it, but the successor had it and not one step backwards is ever approved)

Of course, if BoS' issues were limited to not having clickable cockpits I think the majority of us would've been overjoyed.

You can sum the two sims up with two properties on opposite ends: CloD had a great design and poor execution, BoS had a poor design with great execution. Depends on whether you hold the design or execution in higher regard as to which sim you think better, I personally think we should have BOTH, and that's why I'm not a big fan of either right now





The Jedi Master

Yes we are an insecure lot and seem to have a need to feel good about ourselves by bashing others. This is somehow genetically encoded into us to ensure propagation, our only reason for existence. Or at least that's what my pappy told me. Of course he was institutionalized at the time

They have to lock up the ones making sense, for the good of the herd.



The Jedi Master

Don't you all just sometimes, get sick of it all... it's like playground name calling, my dad's bigger than your dad, etc, etc, etc...
Blah, blahdee blah...
The annoying thing is, if we were all down the pub, we would have a few drinks, and talk about it like adults, and probably enjoy each others company... but because it's the internet and, yeah... my dad's bigger than your dad.

We won't be able to revisit this until 1CGS adds the following to BoS now that they have released the Mission Editor:

1. The ability to string individual missions together into an in-game campaign that tracks pilot progress.
2. The ability to fly as a wingman or flight leader
3. The ability to create historical military medals and award them to the player
4. The ability to name your pilot
5. The ability to gain rank based on your pilot's success

Right now BoS has none of the above (which are staples for single player campaigns). As a game that 1CGS has said is focused on single player content these are must have's for BoS to meet the standard set by just about every single player combat flight sim that has ever been published. Once 1CGS puts the tools in the hands of the community to do these things we'll start seeing content comparable to IL-2 1946 and CloD. The thing that none of us get is the fact that Jason is having to fight tooth and nail with Loft to get these features in place. Its not just budgetary concerns, its philosophical differences between the two. And I don't think anybody understands Loft's philosophical views on game design, including Loft. So there's no telling when or if we'll see the above features implemented.

Remember the TV series "Lost" where you had no idea where the story was going week in and week out. Then after Lost was cancelled it turned out neither did the producers, as the storyline was being invented on the fly as they could think stuff up. The producers had no idea what Lost was about or where it was going (they all laughed about it in hindsight). I often feel like I'm watching Lost when I read official communications on the BoS forum

Regarding the "my game is better than your game" I couldn't agree more. I'm not monogamous when it comes to combat flight sims

Ha! I like this

Trooper I'd very much like to share a beer with you sir!

Expect nothing that ROF doesn't already have and you can't be disappointed. As it is, BoS' lack of things that ROF DOES have is depressing. So much for my "ROF + WWII + enhancements they never had the resources for before" hope for BoS.



The Jedi Master