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#4060384 - 01/06/15 02:39 PM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: flightsimer90s]  
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Those videos I linked to are all indeed with the Laser Hellfire apart from the last one.

I wouldn't know about operations in multiplayer, as 99.99% of my experience is in single player only.

I'm not 100% sure if you could actually fire at and hit a target in real-life, without the host launch platform lighting up a target with its own radar.

P.S. Another sensor on the AH-64D that is very often overlooked is the Radio Frequency Interferometer (RFI). This is actually an active sensor in its own right and can plot a target on the Tactical Situation Display (TSD) by triangulating radar emissions. Most people think that this is a defensive sensor linked into the Aircraft Survivability Equipment (ASE) only.

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#4060391 - 01/06/15 03:10 PM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: Flyboy]  
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I guess we have well and truly hijacked this thread, but I know how much both of us love discussing this stuff smile


What is baffling to me is that all the other Apache sims made use of the PRIORITY feature with the FCR where you could declutter the display to only certain threats to the aircraft HIGH PRIORITY (Air Defense/SAM) Medium Priority (Tanks/AFV) and LOW Priority (Structures/Artillery (?))

Of course, the Symbology in the TSD gives you this information, but I always wondered why LB2, which I always viewed as the premier Longbow sim didn't include this feature. Since all the other sims use it in much the same way, I am assuming it is a "Real" system, and if the FCR can distinguish between the different types of vehicles as it does in LB2, I would assume it would be trivial to filter the display.

With regard to Multiplayer, I was always surprised and pleased at the nuances to the multiplayer experience (and less than pleased at the silly net code that it used to make connections). In Single Player, I seldom flew (don't recall if it is possible) as a Wingman to an AI Flight Lead, so a lot of the Target Handoff stuff had to be assumed in SP, while in MP it was fundamental.

I am sure you read some of the Apache pilot memoirs out there like the one(s) by Ed Macy. Interesting how the actual combat differed from what we do in simulations. A lot more "area denial" attacks with rockets and cannon vs. pinpoint Hellfire attacks. Also the interplay between Pilot and CP/G which is largely absent in the LB2 SP mode and is frustrating in the Pilot/CP-G Multiplayer Role with the pilot only controlling cannon and the CP-G controlling rockets, but needing the pilot to make minute course corrections to have a prayer of hitting anything (except as noted in the AREA DENIAL mode).


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#4060404 - 01/06/15 03:55 PM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: flightsimer90s]  
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Yeah the FCR threat filters are present in a few other sims, but not all. But that is indeed probably the only 'glaring' function that was omitted in LB2. A handy function as well, as unless you assigned a target area with a PFZ (in which case a filter mode from highest-to-lowest threat does happen), you could stumble upon a SAM site and be frantically cycling through targets including TEN trucks in order to try and lock the ONE SAM unit up!

I don't quite know what use it was in practicality, but I remember LB2 being the only Longbow sim where you could 'zoom' an FCR target so that it was the only target shown on the radar page. My interpretation of this, and probably a fairly weak one, was that it was potentially a function in real-life to concentrate all of the radar's power onto a single target that crew perhaps needed extra classification on.

Saying that, in hindsight LB2 had a lot of little, nuances, shall we say. One being the ability to show the radar page on the central heads-out display in the co-pilot's cockpit and then go heads-down and have it appear fullscreen. This is strictly an optical sight viewer, I believe with no digital symbology overlay functions.

It does appear that we have hijacked this post! I do love talking about this stuff! Haven't talked about it in ages and all this info is just coming flooding back to me.

#4060587 - 01/07/15 03:06 AM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: Flyboy]  
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Indeed sir, you are RIGHT!!! You have taught a very old dog a new trick!

I was able to load RF Hellfires on a NR bird, designate a stationary target with TADS and fire the HF in LOAL mode and get a successful hit!! 4 out of 4 actually smile

I had an AI wingman in a Longbow (R) but I never requested any targets or had him bob up and scan or anything.

Not SURE this is "correct" behavior but it sure is new to me.


BTW, I was perusing Ed Macy's second book, "Hellfire" and this bit of the prolog had me scratching my head over ANOTHER system in the Apache (probably a WAH-64D) that I had never heard of:

Quote:
Four klicks to the south of the DC Simon and Jon turned back in a perfectly obvious and synchronised manoeuvre. We were nice and high so we stood out against the rapidly lightening sky.

We began to run in at forty knots.

Simon made the call we’d been waiting for on the secure inter-aircraft radio. ‘I have two rotary icons on the FCR in the desert to the north-west. The Hardwood callsigns are inbound to Sangin and on time.’

‘Widow Seven Six this is Wildman,’ Jake called the JTAC on the secure frequency. ‘Chinooks inbound; confirm we are clear to engage.’

I felt our nose dip and level again as Simon increased to ramming speed. A quick glance left with the naked eye confirmed Jon was 500 metres away and on level-pegging with us. We were in full view of the Taliban.

‘This is Widow Seven Six. Pegasus. Clear hot. Clear hot.’

I pressed T10 and called ‘Come Co-op’ to Simon after I actioned the rockets.

‘Co-op,’ Simon replied.

The MPD confirmed everything I needed to know: co-op bottom right and T10 bottom left. My crosshair was smack in the middle of the field and I was hands off. The Apache would hold the TADS on the position without any help from me. More importantly I could see where Jake was supposed to be firing.


CO-OP?? Hands off?

Macy was the CP/G and Simon the Pilot so I guess he meant the TADS lock would be maintained but Simon had to fly the rocket pipper onto the target. Not sure what CO-OP means in this case. Possibly it switches control of the rockets from the CP/G to Pilot, which makes sense since the pilot has to line up the shot. Jake was the CP/G in the other Gunship.




Originally Posted By: Flyboy


What you can do, is use the data that is automatically provided to you by another, radar-carrying AH-64D in the mission. Or, there are several ways (from what I remember) to get access to targets of your own accord. If I remember rightly, once a target has been found by TADS, it is plotted on the MFD and then you can switch to radar mode and engage with radar Hellfire (as long as it isn't moving). Another way is to download targets from the ABCCC (essentially AWACS aircraft), also the OH-58D Kiowa can send you target data as you share a common datalink.

In any case, you won't get an active lock on such targets because the launch platform doesn't have direct radar. So instead of the usual engagement and launch with a locked tone/solid box in LOBL mode, you have to go for a no tone/broken box in LOAL mode.


Last edited by Recluse; 01/07/15 03:09 AM.

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#4060590 - 01/07/15 03:25 AM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: flightsimer90s]  
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Originally Posted By: Recluse
Originally Posted By: damson
Originally Posted By: john84

I want to read the longbow 2 manual completely before I start with the campaigns, but even before that I have to complete all the tutorials on the 4 flyable choppers (including apache). A lot to do before the good stuff.

I think you have 3 choppers available in LB2 - Longbow, Kiowa and Blackhawk. Sadly the A variant of the Apache from first Longbow was abandoned in Longbow 2.


No, you still have a NR (No Radar) variant of the AH-64 in LB2. Called an AH-64D (NR) rather than an AH-64A, but it lacks the Longbow Radar so you can only use TADS targeting and Laser Hellfires.


The A-Variant Apache in Longbow 1 had a more low-tech cockpit compared to the D-Variant. The AH-64D NR in Longbow 2 was pretty much the D-Variant minus FCR (the RAD page had Radar INOP on it, but you could use the Laser function on the AGM-114K).

There was only ONE time in Longbow 1 that I remember HAVING to take the A-Variant. Flash Point Korea, the one where you had to destroy the radar jamming post. (Yeah, even the ASE was mucked up.) I don't know if any mission (on Hard or on pre-set missions) in Longbow 2 had that situation on enemies.

EDIT: Wait, the 3DFX patch in Longbow 1 removed the A-Variant cockpit, if I remember correctly. Has anyone played that mission with the AH-64D NR?






Last edited by Andrew_Maltani; 01/07/15 03:28 AM.
#4060619 - 01/07/15 06:40 AM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: flightsimer90s]  
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It's either the A or the AH-64C NR not D.

Last edited by john84; 01/07/15 06:58 AM.
#4060622 - 01/07/15 06:52 AM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: Andrew_Maltani]  
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Quote:


There was only ONE time in Longbow 1 that I remember HAVING to take the A-Variant. Flash Point Korea, the one where you had to destroy the radar jamming post. (Yeah, even the ASE was mucked up.) I don't know if any mission (on Hard or on pre-set missions) in Longbow 2 had that situation on enemies.




Yeap 2 urals with jamming equipment, just got done playing that mission. You could have just used lasr hellfires on the longbow.. Worked for me

Last edited by john84; 01/07/15 06:53 AM.
#4060688 - 01/07/15 01:59 PM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: flightsimer90s]  
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Originally Posted By: john84
It's either the A or the AH-64C NR not D.


From the LB2 Manual:

Quote:
AH-64C. Previous designation for upgrade of AH-64As to near AH-64D standard,
apart from omission of Longbow radar retention of -701 engines; provisions for
optional fitment of both; Army requested draft proposal, August 1991; funding for
two prototype conversions awarded in September 1992. With exception of AH-
64Ds and re-sales, all remaining US Army AH-64As (approximately 540) to be
modified. Designation abandoned late 1993; all Apaches to become AH-64D,
including those not fitted with radar.

Following redesignation of AH-64C in late 1993, entire Army inventory to be
known as AH-64D Longbow Apache, although only 227 (original AH-64D total) to
carry Longbow radar. AH-64D to equip 26 battalions; company strength to be
three with radar plus five without; three companies per battalion. Longbow can
track flying targets and see through rain, fog, and smoke that defeat FLIR and TV;
RF Hellfire can operate at shorter ranges; it can lock-on before launch or launch
on co-ordinates and lock-on in flight; Longbow scans through 360° for aerial
targets or scans over 270° in 90° sectors for ground targets; mast-mounted
rotating antenna weighs 113 kg (250lb).


Last edited by Recluse; 01/07/15 02:12 PM.

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#4060698 - 01/07/15 02:07 PM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: Andrew_Maltani]  
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Originally Posted By: Andrew_Maltani

The A-Variant Apache in Longbow 1 had a more low-tech cockpit compared to the D-Variant. The AH-64D NR in Longbow 2 was pretty much the D-Variant minus FCR (the RAD page had Radar INOP on it, but you could use the Laser function on the AGM-114K).

There was only ONE time in Longbow 1 that I remember HAVING to take the A-Variant. Flash Point Korea, the one where you had to destroy the radar jamming post. (Yeah, even the ASE was mucked up.) I don't know if any mission (on Hard or on pre-set missions) in Longbow 2 had that situation on enemies.



YES!! I had totally forgotten the single MFD in the -A variant. Thanks for the correction.

I BELIEVE there was one mission in the LB2 campaign where there was either an FCR Jammer or a unit that could detect FCR emissions (might have been a modified TIN SHIELD radar unit) and you had to be very careful about FCR use.

GENERALLY, it didn't seem to matter and I always kept mine on continuous sweep rather than using the Single Sweep.


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#4062098 - 01/10/15 02:35 PM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: flightsimer90s]  
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OK, quick answers and observations...

* CO-OP mode is a rocket firing mode where the pilot steers and the co-pilot fires.

* Indeed the AH-64C became the AH-64D (no radar fitted).

* The AH-64A does not have an 'MFD'... that small central screen in the CP/G cockpit station is simply a 'heads-out' mirrored visual view of the TADS.

* I don't recall any mission in LB2 where the enemy had FCR jamming capability. FCR detection capability? Maybe... but it would be hard to tell.

#4062784 - 01/12/15 07:55 AM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: Flyboy]  
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In Flash Point Korea there was a mission where NK Urals had special jamming antenna equipment that would make the ASE and Longbow radar go haywire. You had to destroy those 2 targets either by using an apache or laser hellfires.

The ECM was so strong sometimes the helicopter would even crash. This was looked at as bugs when the game came out. But if you read the mission briefings it would talk about it.

Last edited by john84; 01/12/15 08:00 AM.
#4062846 - 01/12/15 01:40 PM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: flightsimer90s]  
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Reading further in Macy's book, he indicates that BOTH the pilot and CP/G have the ability to fly the aircraft and also action the weapons.


Seemed in his COOP scenario, the pilot was BOTH flying and Firing the rockets once the CP/G locked the TADS on the target area.

For the original AH-64A as modeled in LB/FPK I was talking about the MFD in the PILOT (rear) cockpit as shown in some of the screenshots above. Maybe not true to life, but in the SIM it could be toggled to provide multiple functions...


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#4063434 - 01/13/15 04:35 PM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: flightsimer90s]  
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john84 - I never knew that about FPK. Would be cool to see the player helicopter crash when being targeted.

Recluse - Well yeah, both the pilot and CP/G can do everything... more or less. And CO-OP could mean any actions split between two people, in any combination. Ah, forgot about the screen in the pilot cockpit. I don't think it is multi-functional in reality... it's called the Video Display Unit (VDU) and simply relays the TADS imagery as seen by the co-pilot like on his heads-out display.

#4080152 - 02/17/15 06:49 PM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: flightsimer90s]  
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Patched Longbow Gold to 3dfx to see what it would look like. Patch installs and I can maneuver main base menu but never can launch the game. No biggie to re-install and play on dosbox..

Last edited by john84; 02/17/15 06:49 PM.
#4080222 - 02/17/15 08:52 PM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: flightsimer90s]  
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Ah I can still remember those missions on Panama!! Wish I can get the game somehow without having to sell one of my eyes, lol.


-Sir in case of retreat, were we have to retreat??
-To the Graveyard!!

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#4080244 - 02/17/15 09:29 PM Re: Longbow Gold Baltic Hammer Mission Problem.. [Re: flightsimer90s]  
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LB Gold can be found off archive.org and just use flyboys install guide to play it off doxbox it runs 100%.

Last edited by john84; 02/17/15 09:30 PM.
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