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#4077224 - 02/11/15 08:03 PM
Loft thoughs
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,955
Sokol1
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,955
Internet
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Q - In this case, you get to do the product is not for the end user and for the investor.
You have the ability to monitor how many people are playing the campaign, how much / how often played on online servers, etc.
But this is a sample-based actions, the possibility that you have already provided.
The fundamental desire of the investor, developer and user one - an interesting and popular product.
Why then not resort to well-formulated polls?
You will have more information on what you should spend resources and what not, and users will have confidence in ownership, and fewer questions about the future.
For example, "Why did not the MiG monkey?"
Loft A - Because: Genre stagnating because of the community of players. It does not quite understand simple things.
1) The game of their dreams is not technically possible
2) growth capabilities of the computer leads to complication primarily content. Ie its cost grows exponentially
3) Genre is not popular (complex, high barrier to entry), so that a smaller number of participants shall bear the costs for more (if the game itself was easier and more popular than the cost per participant would be smaller)
4) If you make a game based on the wishes of the core community it will not be interesting to anyone else because of the high expert participants (community does not like the Cubs and believes that if someone have to learn it and forget how they learned to do)
5) Age of players is high and therefore they do not like new modernized technology, social networking - #%&*$#, Like it means humbled, praising the author zapadlo (standards in the men's team, we are not women) - so what is trash and simulators know anyone unknown.
6) "I do not have to," "History should not be there with the money", "real guys are doing everything for the soul" - so smart, educated people do not want to work on such games, because I always slop and criticism under dubious prospects. find an employee to work for the simulator is almost impossible.
And yes, we are looking statistics. And she says that in the polls negligible part of people who do not express any opinion but also themselves argue. Ambush genre that unlike other genres there is no imagination. He is copying reality. So there is no question whatsoever. Everyone knows what color the tree and the sky, every, every day is watching. And as I wrote above is not possible to copy the reality at this level of civilization, which means that in this genre will never be an understanding between the developer and the user.
An interesting and popular product is not compatible with a joystick. But you're never going to believe this is not because it violates your view of the world. Genre now may not be popular, joysticks removed from stores, they are not sold, they are not interesting. No joysticks = no players.
And then the polls. I do not know how to explain it to you, it's hard. In a genre there is no demand, we do it because we are interested in, not because there is a demand. If we will meet the demand it will be a different game (they already have). We know almost 100% of your answers to these questions are obvious, as the genre about the obvious. It makes no sense for you to test dragons or elves. At a certain form of a question the answer is 100% predictable.
You just do not want to understand what it is all ass (live in illusions and myths that IL-2 was mega popular, etc.).
Refuse to understand that we are only 30% of cases do not want to do something, and 70% can not, even if we want to. Simulators in the world a little because they are very complex (much more difficult all the games), but the poor (for scientific work does not pay a lot), but not because no one knows what to do.
I know, I know, I agree with you. Everything has to be otherwise, this is not right, etc. But all that. There StarSitizen example, is a good example. Sometimes tempted. Tell you "we make the dream", and carry you all what you want to hear all your fantasies. People will pay, and do it at a certain speed, where the output of the game will be someday, etc. This is the only way to play the dream, do not take money from investors and take them directly to the community and then it is logical to do it Wishlist, they pay for them. BUT, the money in advance. Oleg tried to DCS to do it. His name, etc. unlike us, we are one, and what happened? They have not collected anything actually. money that they have collected enough for a few planes. Therefore, no one satisfied polls, because the answers are obvious, one dream at all. But it is quite muddled. Need some something completely different approach, which we have not yet invented.
Q -Albert, what's heard about the addition of new types of missions in the off campaign is in the plans?
Loft A - It is believed that the game is now suffering not because of the campaign, etc.
Do not like it (not interested) certain circle, an important but does not define the survival of the project.
The problem is the content. Aircraft are very complex and time-consuming because and as a result expensive and ultimately they are few.
Ie corny project is not attractive to the buyer.
I am inclined to this opinion, and I think that first of all you need to correct the problem with the content, and then with the filling.
Unfortunately we are not so much involved in all the same people, so there will be a choice depth vs width.
It is important parameters for different levels of the community, the kernel is confident that the depth of the orbit sure that the width. What we do not deliver, we make a mistake, so be dissatisfied.
So now those who have engaged in a campaign are engaged in other works.
I still can not imagine when they are released.
Ideally, I would have shifted the work on the kernel itself, because he needs to. But here, first you need to create tools (they already have) and documents (they are not).
There are precedents in the past 2 years ROF campaign have improved and we are not members of the community.
I do not know whether it will come with silt. If we plan to work faster and these guys will have some free time, take care of the templates missions.
There are many ideas and opportunities and, in general, too much.
Zeus example only touched QM and not being biased yet can tell you that it is possible there is darkness, but it is work.
Q - Unsubscribe at jambs campaign just do not want to hope grosspatche will either be a complete change of an existing campaign or something new.
Loft A - No, nothing like this will not happen.
Last edited by Sokol1; 02/11/15 08:27 PM.
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#4077233 - 02/11/15 08:30 PM
Re: Loft thoughs
[Re: Sokol1]
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,806
Bearcat99
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,806
USA
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Where was this posted Sokol?
I don't think that any one segment of the sim population can sustain any sim for long. The key is to make it scalable to a wide variety of tastes. If you make it so that the noob and the veteran cna start where they are and enjoy the product.. you will have a winner that will live a long life. No sim since IL2 foillowed that line of thought and so far all have paid the price as far as developers go... I have no idea how WT is doing... but I think it would be doing a lot better if it followed the same principle.
Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
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#4077251 - 02/11/15 09:28 PM
Re: Loft thoughs
[Re: Sokol1]
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
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Autotranslate fail! FTF? Whatever.
The problem is while he is correct that there is a problem with the genre and that the community can be its own worst enemy, he was NOT correct in how to fix it.
Recognizing the problem is the first step, but it's not the only one.
Just because you know what the problem is doesn't mean you know how to fix it.
The fact that he fails to grasp is that you can't attract new players merely by alienating the old. Either you have a presentation that draws the new in, but under the surface has something for the old, or you make it look like something that draws in the old players yet have relaxed options to cater for the new. Of course in that case you must rely on the players to demonstrate to new people that it appeals to a larger audience.
BoS started out quite clearly as the successor to Il-2. Hence its name. Strike one AGAINST bringing in new players and FOR bringing in the old. Then you have uber modeled systems detail in planes and objects and the entire world, something that does NOT appeal to casual WT-type players. Either it turns them off if it's forced upon them or they ignore it if they can switch it off. Then they went to the campaign and graphics presets and unlocks and it seems like they changed course mid-development. Too late to appeal to the new, but plenty of time to alienate the old.
What SHOULD have been done instead is to start with a true WT-like competitor. Forget "Il-2". Forget CEM and the like. Make a DX11 engine that ran fast and looked awesome with lots of objects on the ground and in the air. Make a robust MP that supported a LOT of players and more than just mindless melee in the skies. Make an easy-to-use MB/FMB/QMB that let players make fun missions with little effort but deep missions if they put a lot of effort in, and make sure it worked on and offline. Allow multiple views to fly and fight the plane from, including cockpit, no cockpit, and 3rd person. Make a campaign that was fun to fly even on uber-easy/relaxed settings, with unlocks for skins and whatever to support grinding up and achievements/medals/rewards to compel that type of player to keep going while they were already having fun.
Once all that was in place, and they had a WT-like competitor in their stable, THEN you add to the plane's systems things like CEM. You offer the ability to bypass unlocks and get mods. You lure the hardcore players in with the depth below the surface that they're willing to take the time to look for. Make separate MP servers for them so they can use sticks and CEM and no labels and forced cockpit and whatnot. Charge them more for these things than the masses of casual grinding players who won't pay $50 let alone more for the game because they're going to use more and get more out of it. If they don't come, you give up on the hardcore stuff, as long as you have a sustainable model that the casual players support.
But no, they did it backwards. Maybe that was based on budget, but the business plan they followed makes no sense. The fact that they never saw that the path they chose would NOT lure the WT players but WOULD alienate the Il-2 players is proof of that.
Reminds me of when the main star switched on MST3K back in the early 90s, and another character gave the new guy a sweater she'd been making with his name on it. Joel had left and Mike had come in, but the sweater said "JOIKE" on it, because she'd started it for one but finished it for the other, making it something neither would really want.
BoS has turned into the "JOIKE" of flight sims. Funny how it looks like "joke"...
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#4077335 - 02/12/15 01:04 AM
Re: Loft thoughs
[Re: Sokol1]
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 88
Jaws2002
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 88
Ontario, Canada.
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There's no problem with the community. The problem is, that we ran out of serious companies, willing to push the envelope, and cheap greedy guys like this, try to milk us dry, and reeducate us to play the cheapest, dumbest game they can make.
This is the problem here. When I said, In this forum, that this guys are trying to reeducate us about what we want from a flight sim, almost two years ago, my post was deleted and I got a warning for insulting the developers. Now it's pretty obvious, to everyone, what they wanted all along. Cheap dumb game, made from scraps and left overs, they can sell to the masses.
Guess what, the masses didn't bite and the community he thought he can easily take for a ride, woke up.
They may still make money on this title, because I doubt they spent much on it, but there's a snowballs chance in hell. they can sell crap to the vast majority of this community.
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#4077347 - 02/12/15 01:27 AM
Re: Loft thoughs
[Re: Jaws2002]
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 601
SkullBiscuit
Member
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Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 601
USA
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There's no problem with the community. The problem is, that we ran out of serious companies, willing to push the envelope, and cheap greedy guys like this, try to milk us dry, and reeducate us to play the cheapest, dumbest game they can make.
This is the problem here. When I said, In this forum, that this guys are trying to reeducate us about what we want from a flight sim, almost two years ago, my post was deleted and I got a warning for insulting the developers. Now it's pretty obvious, to everyone, what they wanted all along. Cheap dumb game, made from scraps and left overs, they can sell to the masses.
Guess what, the masses didn't bite and the community he thought he can easily take for a ride, woke up.
They may still make money on this title, because I doubt they spent much on it, but there's a snowballs chance in hell. they can sell crap to the vast majority of this community.
Bingo! This entire BoS enterprise seems to have started with a cynical economic calculation in how to bring in the old Il-2 market while delivering a product that costs far less...and delivers far less...but that is not recognized until release....and then the "re-education camp"...otherwise known as the official forum...begins with the indoctrination that the BoS Dev 1CGS Party along with its apparatchiks....knows what's best for the CFS'ing people. Someone needs to pull Loft aside and tell him that the Soviet Union collapsed for a reason, one of them being authoritarian regimes don't do well fostering innovation, and neither Putin, nor he can put it back together again by telling the people what is best for them. It is amusing though....this whole authoritarian culture has got no place in a commercial market where people can vote with their spending. I have to wonder if they made enough with this title to cover their costs to prevent a "purge" of Loft and his new CFS Bolsheviks. Their problem is that can't collect up the old history books and rewrite new ones according to their new CFS ideology. He should have known that from the gitgo...but then these guys seem impervious to market logic and put their faith in a vision...love to see their cash burn rate vs money in the bank right now 
AMD 8 core at 4.7Ghz
16GB Ram
GTX 970 4GB
Sim on SSD
Win 7 64bit
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#4077365 - 02/12/15 02:15 AM
Re: Loft thoughs
[Re: JagerNeun]
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 560
lokitexas
Member
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Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 560
San Antonio, TX.
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I like point #3 as well, smaller number of participants shall bear the cost for more..Well guys that went according to plan....we put the money up front and "presto" Russian 15 dollar game.....If am reading this correctly...we are the smaller number, the outdated guys that don't get it, with cash in our pockets..... The reason you have cash is you are too old to work a debit card. You know...all that dang modern technology hooie. GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!
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#4077385 - 02/12/15 04:12 AM
Re: Loft thoughs
[Re: Sokol1]
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 240
Wolf_Rider
Member
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Member
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 240
Australia
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Q - In this case, you get to do the product is not for the end user and for the investor.
You have the ability to monitor how many people are playing the campaign, how much / how often played on online servers, etc.
But this is a sample-based actions, the possibility that you have already provided.
The fundamental desire of the investor, developer and user one - an interesting and popular product.
Why then not resort to well-formulated polls?
You will have more information on what you should spend resources and what not, and users will have confidence in ownership, and fewer questions about the future.
For example, "Why did not the MiG monkey?"
Loft A - Because: Genre stagnating because of the community of players. It does not quite understand simple things.
1) The game of their dreams is not technically possible
2) growth capabilities of the computer leads to complication primarily content. Ie its cost grows exponentially
3) Genre is not popular (complex, high barrier to entry), so that a smaller number of participants shall bear the costs for more (if the game itself was easier and more popular than the cost per participant would be smaller)
4) If you make a game based on the wishes of the core community it will not be interesting to anyone else because of the high expert participants (community does not like the Cubs and believes that if someone have to learn it and forget how they learned to do)
5) Age of players is high and therefore they do not like new modernized technology, social networking - #%&*$#, Like it means humbled, praising the author zapadlo (standards in the men's team, we are not women) - so what is trash and simulators know anyone unknown.
6) "I do not have to," "History should not be there with the money", "real guys are doing everything for the soul" - so smart, educated people do not want to work on such games, because I always slop and criticism under dubious prospects. find an employee to work for the simulator is almost impossible.
And yes, we are looking statistics. And she says that in the polls negligible part of people who do not express any opinion but also themselves argue. Ambush genre that unlike other genres there is no imagination. He is copying reality. So there is no question whatsoever. Everyone knows what color the tree and the sky, every, every day is watching. And as I wrote above is not possible to copy the reality at this level of civilization, which means that in this genre will never be an understanding between the developer and the user.
An interesting and popular product is not compatible with a joystick. But you're never going to believe this is not because it violates your view of the world. Genre now may not be popular, joysticks removed from stores, they are not sold, they are not interesting. No joysticks = no players.
And then the polls. I do not know how to explain it to you, it's hard. In a genre there is no demand, we do it because we are interested in, not because there is a demand. If we will meet the demand it will be a different game (they already have). We know almost 100% of your answers to these questions are obvious, as the genre about the obvious. It makes no sense for you to test dragons or elves. At a certain form of a question the answer is 100% predictable.
You just do not want to understand what it is all ass (live in illusions and myths that IL-2 was mega popular, etc.).
Refuse to understand that we are only 30% of cases do not want to do something, and 70% can not, even if we want to. Simulators in the world a little because they are very complex (much more difficult all the games), but the poor (for scientific work does not pay a lot), but not because no one knows what to do.
I know, I know, I agree with you. Everything has to be otherwise, this is not right, etc. But all that. There StarSitizen example, is a good example. Sometimes tempted. Tell you "we make the dream", and carry you all what you want to hear all your fantasies. People will pay, and do it at a certain speed, where the output of the game will be someday, etc. This is the only way to play the dream, do not take money from investors and take them directly to the community and then it is logical to do it Wishlist, they pay for them. BUT, the money in advance. Oleg tried to DCS to do it. His name, etc. unlike us, we are one, and what happened? They have not collected anything actually. money that they have collected enough for a few planes. Therefore, no one satisfied polls, because the answers are obvious, one dream at all. But it is quite muddled. Need some something completely different approach, which we have not yet invented.
Q -Albert, what's heard about the addition of new types of missions in the off campaign is in the plans?
Loft A - It is believed that the game is now suffering not because of the campaign, etc.
Do not like it (not interested) certain circle, an important but does not define the survival of the project.
The problem is the content. Aircraft are very complex and time-consuming because and as a result expensive and ultimately they are few.
Ie corny project is not attractive to the buyer.
I am inclined to this opinion, and I think that first of all you need to correct the problem with the content, and then with the filling.
Unfortunately we are not so much involved in all the same people, so there will be a choice depth vs width.
It is important parameters for different levels of the community, the kernel is confident that the depth of the orbit sure that the width. What we do not deliver, we make a mistake, so be dissatisfied.
So now those who have engaged in a campaign are engaged in other works.
I still can not imagine when they are released.
Ideally, I would have shifted the work on the kernel itself, because he needs to. But here, first you need to create tools (they already have) and documents (they are not).
There are precedents in the past 2 years ROF campaign have improved and we are not members of the community.
I do not know whether it will come with silt. If we plan to work faster and these guys will have some free time, take care of the templates missions.
There are many ideas and opportunities and, in general, too much.
Zeus example only touched QM and not being biased yet can tell you that it is possible there is darkness, but it is work.
Q - Unsubscribe at jambs campaign just do not want to hope grosspatche will either be a complete change of an existing campaign or something new.
Loft A - No, nothing like this will not happen. sounds a lot like the musings of a Business House I.T. Manager (keep it dumbed down, keep it simple and the employee won't inadvertently lock themselves out of their own machine) and yes, Skull Biscuit and Jaws, we are witnessing an attempted re-education attempt... they'll keep on repeating it until it becomes the defacto truth
“Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised.”
Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
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#4077394 - 02/12/15 04:56 AM
Re: Loft thoughs
[Re: SkullBiscuit]
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,398
KodiakJac
Member
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Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,398
USA
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There's no problem with the community. The problem is, that we ran out of serious companies, willing to push the envelope, and cheap greedy guys like this, try to milk us dry, and reeducate us to play the cheapest, dumbest game they can make.
This is the problem here. When I said, In this forum, that this guys are trying to reeducate us about what we want from a flight sim, almost two years ago, my post was deleted and I got a warning for insulting the developers. Now it's pretty obvious, to everyone, what they wanted all along. Cheap dumb game, made from scraps and left overs, they can sell to the masses.
Guess what, the masses didn't bite and the community he thought he can easily take for a ride, woke up.
They may still make money on this title, because I doubt they spent much on it, but there's a snowballs chance in hell. they can sell crap to the vast majority of this community.
Bingo! This entire BoS enterprise seems to have started with a cynical economic calculation in how to bring in the old Il-2 market while delivering a product that costs far less...and delivers far less...but that is not recognized until release....and then the "re-education camp"...otherwise known as the official forum...begins with the indoctrination that the BoS Dev 1CGS Party along with its apparatchiks....knows what's best for the CFS'ing people. Someone needs to pull Loft aside and tell him that the Soviet Union collapsed for a reason, one of them being authoritarian regimes don't do well fostering innovation, and neither Putin, nor he can put it back together again by telling the people what is best for them. It is amusing though....this whole authoritarian culture has got no place in a commercial market where people can vote with their spending. I have to wonder if they made enough with this title to cover their costs to prevent a "purge" of Loft and his new CFS Bolsheviks. Their problem is that can't collect up the old history books and rewrite new ones according to their new CFS ideology. He should have known that from the gitgo...but then these guys seem impervious to market logic and put their faith in a vision...love to see their cash burn rate vs money in the bank right now Both excellent posts! Loft dreams of the unigame and views the gaming market as a whole pie and not the many slices of a pie. He had x number of dollars for development and tried to build a game for everyone (he frequently talks about Doom and Call of Duty when talking about BoS). If he were in the automotive industry he would be trying to build and sell the unicar...a car for all needs and all drivers. It is classic central planning thinking. He really doesn't get or can't accept the free market concept. Loft has tried to build something and then create demand...it just won't work. Not all Russian companies are this clueless, but Loft is a case study of a communist marketing philosophy floundering in a free market system.
Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up! Can you say "JABO!" 
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#4077403 - 02/12/15 05:47 AM
Re: Loft thoughs
[Re: KodiakJac]
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,187
Force10
I'm just a
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I'm just a
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,187
CA
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If you make a game based on the wishes of the core community it will not be interesting to anyone else because of the high expert participants
An interesting and popular product is not compatible with a joystick. But you're never going to believe this is not because it violates your view of the world. Genre now may not be popular, joysticks removed from stores, they are not sold, they are not interesting. No joysticks = no players
Actually, this is sound thinking and makes perfect sense from a strictly business point of view. It's well thought out and I'm sure there are numbers that back the statements up to a degree. Here's my problem: There is no way Loft and the investors just came to this realization between dev blog 22 and 23. You would have to think this well laid out strategy was in place and probably a requirement to secure funding before they started up with 777. Gee...I wonder why they didn't share this strategy with the hardcore IL-2 crowd before they asked us to help fund this "venture" at $100 a pop. You know, us cavemen that still fly with joysticks and enjoy having some flexibility with adjusting our graphics settings. Ugh...
Asus Z87 Sabertooth motherboard
Windows 7 64 bit Home edition
Intel I5 4670K @ 4.4 ghz
16 gig 1866mhz Corsair Vengence Pro memory
EVGA GTX 970 Superclocked 4gb Video Card
Intel 510 series 120gb SSD (boot drive)
Samsung 840 1TB SSD
Onboard Realtek sound
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Oddball from Kelly's Heroes: "If we're late, it's cause we're dead"
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#4077412 - 02/12/15 07:01 AM
Re: Loft thoughs
[Re: Force10]
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 314
robtek
Member
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Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 314
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If you make a game based on the wishes of the core community it will not be interesting to anyone else because of the high expert participants
An interesting and popular product is not compatible with a joystick. But you're never going to believe this is not because it violates your view of the world. Genre now may not be popular, joysticks removed from stores, they are not sold, they are not interesting. No joysticks = no players
Actually, this is sound thinking and makes perfect sense from a strictly business point of view. It's well thought out and I'm sure there are numbers that back the statements up to a degree. Here's my problem: There is no way Loft and the investors just came to this realization between dev blog 22 and 23. You would have to think this well laid out strategy was in place and probably a requirement to secure funding before they started up with 777. Gee...I wonder why they didn't share this strategy with the hardcore IL-2 crowd before they asked us to help fund this "venture" at $100 a pop. You know, us cavemen that still fly with joysticks and enjoy having some flexibility with adjusting our graphics settings. Ugh... Back to the official forum with all of you!!! You still have independent thoughts!!! Don't you all see that they made everything easier to understand, stop thinking, follow the flow, obey and be happy.
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