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#4071370 - 01/29/15 07:15 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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Sgigi Offline
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#4074830 - 02/06/15 09:30 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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777 may end up with no choice but to update their game engine, even if they have to be dragged, kicking and screaming into doing it.

For the time being however, it is more than disappointing, never the less I can't disagree with them when it comes to spending time catering for an unproven bit of kit that might either be a complete irrelevant flop or keep changing the goal posts for developers that they have to keep scrapping work because it's just had someone, out with their control, decided it's outmoded and therefore redundant.

Once the CV 1 is out in the wild and 777 can access it's true worth, then and only then can they really come to a firm conclusion as to it's worth and whether it'll be worth spending time, effort and gold on implementing, however much work that might involve and whether they really want to do it

I do agree with others thought who think Jason is sounding off a bit too loudly, but that could just be that he's as disappointed and frustrated as the rest of us and doing what many of us do and is having a bit of an irrational rant.

Last edited by Damocles; 02/06/15 09:31 PM.
#4075959 - 02/09/15 03:04 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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Entil'zha
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Personally, I agree they shouldn't bend over backwards for OR. It may or may not make a dent big enough for them to devote time to it.

On the flip side, I think it was a mistake to stick with DX9. DX10 has only been around EIGHT years now, or over 6 by the time EA started. DX11 came out over 4 years ago, and now DX12 is around the corner.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4075964 - 02/09/15 03:13 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Revvin Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Personally, I agree they shouldn't bend over backwards for OR. It may or may not make a dent big enough for them to devote time to it.

On the flip side, I think it was a mistake to stick with DX9. DX10 has only been around EIGHT years now, or over 6 by the time EA started. DX11 came out over 4 years ago, and now DX12 is around the corner.


The Jedi Master


Agreed, does it show a lack of ambition for the series from 1C to use an engine based on such an old version of DirectX? I wonder if anyone at 1C thinks perhaps they should have given the CloD engine more time having seen what a group of part timers have done without direct access to the code? and the part timer reference is not to cause offense, its actually more of a compliment as to what they have achieved while holding down a regular day job.

#4076458 - 02/10/15 01:27 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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yes, they should have... but most there ( 1C ), at least the upper echelon, got caught up with listening to the very vocal minority carrying on about when the sim is going to be released and their demand for it to be, they ( 1C ) thought they were going to miss the release slot and lose sales. Others at ( 1C ) also saw they needed to destroy the il2 brand to regain control of it from UBI... unfortunately, it is now in the wrong hands
they lost out on all fronts... hence the current western il2 BoS publisher (which has a track record for failed product)

Given another twelve months, with Oleg at the helm, the outcome (reception) of the product would have been totally different


Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised.

Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
#4076484 - 02/10/15 02:05 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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Entil'zha
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If they'd been given 12 more from the start (they took an extra 6 anyway), and used it to go to DX11 and beef up the campaign, I would agree. There's a DX12 preview on Anandtech that illustrates what sort of improvement we might expect from it when we get it late this year, and I wonder if BoS' ability to have multiple planes and objects in one mission might not be vastly improved over DX9 if they used it.

Oleg? No. He bailed on CloD but didn't SAY he'd bailed on it till it was done. He said he was working on DCS WWII when it looks now like maybe he contributed some spreadsheets or something. The Oleg of 10 years ago, maybe, but the Oleg of 5 years ago and today? No.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4077939 - 02/13/15 07:59 AM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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Hooves Offline
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His "speculation"is 100% correct. When using the DK2, the immersion and cool factor are amazing. But if you were to play against a real player (or even AI) with no tags on, you'd get smoked. The resolution just cant pick up distant objects. As it is now you have to lean in to see the numbers on the dials. Its cool, but not ready. 4k per eye would do it. Even after seeing the "gear VR" demo with the note4. The 2560x 1440 i still dont feel would be up to the task. This is all from experience btw.

I am bummed support has been dropped, but this is all part of what shapes a genre, ill go to what ever product fills my needs. No drama or hate. Not sure why some of you on here still come here day after day to rage. I took a nice 6 month break, just to come back to the same folks talkin the same trash. You have demonstrated your discontent. Move on already.

#4077995 - 02/13/15 12:07 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Hooves]  
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Bucksnort Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hooves
Not sure why some of you on here still come here day after day to rage. I took a nice 6 month break, just to come back to the same folks talkin the same trash. You have demonstrated your discontent. Move on already.


No.

I think most of us are beyond the rage phase. Now its about sticking around to warn prospective new buyers what to expect. Wouldn't it be awful if we stopped talking and a whole new wave of buyers got "had" thinking they were buying a game similar to IL-2 1946 or CloD (as BoS is advertised to be).


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#4078214 - 02/13/15 06:51 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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307_Banzai Offline
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Blaming hardware and it's producers it's an easy way to get out from delivering what the devs promised.

I would say that they are rather happy that Oculus is dropping support for DirectX9 , easy way out for them from a problem with delivering decent support as promised.

I don't dispute shortcomings and purpose of DK2 itself , but I do want to say I feel disappointed with the way the whole DK2 support was handled by the devs.

Hooves arguments about low resolution are valid but we do have icons and this amazing futuristic technochat. You don't really have to see all the gauges anyway with most of the planes being easy to manage , with mostly throttle and radiators opened.

It's true that you would be lost on Syndicate server ibut that's not the point and what DK2 was created for.

You could still have some fun just taking off and flying , dogfighting with icons , flying Heinkel or Peshka , being a gunner in bomber.

We know DK2 is not going to replace monitors just yet ,but people who went and bought BoS or DK2 on a promise that it will be supported should at least have a chance to make their own opinion.

Hooves , you were a tester in BoS and maybe you were privileged enough to actually see BoS in DK2 so you know more , all I know is that we went from a promise of support to delays and now probable cancellation of support.

Hooves , you say that you speak from experience, I have DK2 too , bought especially for BoS , DCS and Elite are truly amazing experiences, not perfect by any means but at least they managed to implement it in their engine and it works. I had fantastic experiences in Elite and fought and shot down planes in DCS quickmissions , no icons btw.

BoS DK and then DK2 support was shown behind closed doors at press events. So they were confident to show it to 'the press' but not to their clients who paid premium?

How hard was it is to release whatever work in progress version of DK2 support they have , release a disclaimer , saying that this is a work in progress version , this is the best we can do at the moment , there are known problems, we recommend 64bit system and powerful PC to run it .

People would see for themselves what is possible or not possible on their PC , does it run or not and the moved on.

#4078224 - 02/13/15 07:16 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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bongodriver Offline
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England
Loft has confirmed that they lack good programmers with enough skill to upgrade the engine to higher DX levels, this explains plenty, perhaps even why there is no trim on axis or graphic customisation.

in case you think I'm joking this is a quote from Zak.

Quote:
Loft just told me that we can offer you guys a deal: you find us a good programmer and we consider such engine upgrade.


http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14556-developer-diary-part-88-discussion/?p=231553

#4078228 - 02/13/15 07:19 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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Sgigi Offline
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Hahahaha

The contempt for the consumer continues.

#4078249 - 02/13/15 07:50 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: bongodriver]  
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307_Banzai Offline
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Originally Posted By: bongodriver
Loft has confirmed that they lack good programmers with enough skill to upgrade the engine to higher DX levels, this explains plenty, perhaps even why there is no trim on axis or graphic customisation.

in case you think I'm joking this is a quote from Zak.

Quote:
Loft just told me that we can offer you guys a deal: you find us a good programmer and we consider such engine upgrade.


http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14556-developer-diary-part-88-discussion/?p=231553


I disagreed with you earlier on BoS delivering DK2 support but ultimately you were right.

Funny thing is that the announced shift from DirectX 9 didn't even happen yet , they could still deliver support for DK2 , you could choose to not update your DK2 software and keep using it with BoS.

Also Jason said that Oculus wanted BoS to run 100 fps and that's impossible. Why? Also DK2 is 75 fps. Consumer version will most likely be 90 fps. Is this really impossible on modern PC's ? How is DCS is managing to work , must be magic.

Also how is that ED continues to support DK2 and Oculus in general and list improved OR support as one of the features of it's upcoming (who knows when wink ) DCS 2.0 on new engine.

So on one side we have a tired excuse of it's not ready , resolution is too low , you can't be an ace on Syndicate , Oculus wants pilot bodies and 100 fps , Facebook is Evil , I am under NDA , we have one programmer , Oculus is not interested in simulators , etc.

On the other side we have ED , there you go guys , we have DK2 support , it's not perfect , it requires bit of work to get it running but we have people on forum offering help, we are working on new engine and we will improve OR support , in the meantime enjoy what you have , it's a glimpse into the future.

I preffer ED approach , I had fun in DCS , I am confident that they can provide even better experience on CV of Rift. Future is interesting , DCS 2.0 with WW2 content , CV of Rift , all we need is more horsepower and improved SLi implementation with OR.

Hooves offered an advice to people to move on if they are not happy with BoS.

I agree , move on , through refund desk first though. Same as Bongo did and others are doing.

#4078252 - 02/13/15 07:56 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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lokitexas Offline
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Remember Jason and all the BoS fanatics telling people DX9 is just as relevant as newer versions? Remember them saying you wont even know its DX9? Remember them saying you could not tell?

Yeah...

It seems the post by Loft saying the sim was crowd was old and afraid of new technology is a little hypocritical now.

#4078256 - 02/13/15 08:13 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

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Find a good programmer? There is no shortage of them.

I think they left something off the end of that.
He should've said "find us a good programmer...willing to put up with Loft's ideas and low pay and..."



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4078315 - 02/13/15 09:37 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: bongodriver]  
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kendo Offline
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Originally Posted By: bongodriver
Loft has confirmed that they lack good programmers with enough skill to upgrade the engine to higher DX levels, this explains plenty, perhaps even why there is no trim on axis or graphic customisation.

in case you think I'm joking this is a quote from Zak.

Quote:
Loft just told me that we can offer you guys a deal: you find us a good programmer and we consider such engine upgrade.


http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14556-developer-diary-part-88-discussion/?p=231553


Typically cynical interpretation of what was an obviously flippant and jokey remark, but one that could actually be an early 'hint' that an upgrade to the engine IS now on the agenda...and most likely because the OR situation has forced their hand.

#4078349 - 02/13/15 11:04 PM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: kendo]  
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bongodriver Offline
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Originally Posted By: kendo
Originally Posted By: bongodriver
Loft has confirmed that they lack good programmers with enough skill to upgrade the engine to higher DX levels, this explains plenty, perhaps even why there is no trim on axis or graphic customisation.

in case you think I'm joking this is a quote from Zak.

Quote:
Loft just told me that we can offer you guys a deal: you find us a good programmer and we consider such engine upgrade.


http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14556-developer-diary-part-88-discussion/?p=231553


Typically cynical interpretation of what was an obviously flippant and jokey remark, but one that could actually be an early 'hint' that an upgrade to the engine IS now on the agenda...and most likely because the OR situation has forced their hand.



Typically blinkered interpretation, the quote makes no suggestion whatsoever that an engine upgrade is on the agenda, in fact it reinforces that one isn't due to the chronic budget, staff and time restrictions the devs have, it is clear from Jasons recent postings that OR is not forcing anything other than weak excuses.

#4078372 - 02/14/15 12:14 AM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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Chivas Offline
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They started enabling BOS for the OR with the DK1 @60hz, then it had to be 75hz for the DK2, and now the Oculus development is suggesting 95Hz will be required for the consumer version. Anyone even remotely knowledgeable about running complex combat flight sims knows that even 75hz was a bridge to far. I have no problem with the BOS development taking a wait and see attitude, as their budget doesn't allow them to chase a dream with little initial financial return. They will still have a window to enable support, if the Oculus Rift pans out, as I think it might. In the mean time their best course of action is to optimize and upgrade their game engine, if they want to remain relevant.


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#4078431 - 02/14/15 05:09 AM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: 307_Banzai]  
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Hooves Offline
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Originally Posted By: 307_Banzai
Blaming hardware and it's producers it's an easy way to get out from delivering what the devs promised.

I would say that they are rather happy that Oculus is dropping support for DirectX9 , easy way out for them from a problem with delivering decent support as promised.

I don't dispute shortcomings and purpose of DK2 itself , but I do want to say I feel disappointed with the way the whole DK2 support was handled by the devs.

Hooves arguments about low resolution are valid but we do have icons and this amazing futuristic technochat. You don't really have to see all the gauges anyway with most of the planes being easy to manage , with mostly throttle and radiators opened.

It's true that you would be lost on Syndicate server ibut that's not the point and what DK2 was created for.

You could still have some fun just taking off and flying , dogfighting with icons , flying Heinkel or Peshka , being a gunner in bomber.

We know DK2 is not going to replace monitors just yet ,but people who went and bought BoS or DK2 on a promise that it will be supported should at least have a chance to make their own opinion.

Hooves , you were a tester in BoS and maybe you were privileged enough to actually see BoS in DK2 so you know more , all I know is that we went from a promise of support to delays and now probable cancellation of support.

Hooves , you say that you speak from experience, I have DK2 too , bought especially for BoS , DCS and Elite are truly amazing experiences, not perfect by any means but at least they managed to implement it in their engine and it works. I had fantastic experiences in Elite and fought and shot down planes in DCS quickmissions , no icons btw.

BoS DK and then DK2 support was shown behind closed doors at press events. So they were confident to show it to 'the press' but not to their clients who paid premium?

How hard was it is to release whatever work in progress version of DK2 support they have , release a disclaimer , saying that this is a work in progress version , this is the best we can do at the moment , there are known problems, we recommend 64bit system and powerful PC to run it .

People would see for themselves what is possible or not possible on their PC , does it run or not and the moved on.







You really should hear yourself. You want a limited dev team to put a bunch of time into a product that wont be supported as soon as the OR software gets updated? Are you serious that your answer is "just dont update the OR software"? As far as gettign kills in DCS, yes I was also able to do this, but I promise you, playing agisnt others with monitors, on Full real servers you dont stand a chance. I enjoy Full real settings, so it does not make any sense to use the OR in its current (possibly even future) state.

Things happen in develpoment. It didnt go their way. Oh well. Why sit here and slag them for someone elses decision is beyond me.

Also, a DX-11 upgrade wont make any difference at the distances we are flying at. So no, you wouldnt be able to tell the differnce between dx 9 and dx 11. Your cockpits might look nicer though.

and Bucksnort, so your the Hero of the day "saving" people from this game. thats rich. Sounds to me like you are just harboring sour grapes and want to destroy someone elses work

I wish they would have kept OR support, I wish they would have gone with some other decisions. But its not my game, I didnt build it. If feel the need, Ill vote with my wallet. But launching a crusade to "save" others is a pathetic lie to cover up pure rage issues. There are Plenty of better things to do with your time.

#4078442 - 02/14/15 06:38 AM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Hooves]  
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Bucksnort Offline
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Bucksnort  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hooves
and Bucksnort, so your the Hero of the day "saving" people from this game. thats rich. Sounds to me like you are just harboring sour grapes and want to destroy someone elses work

I wish they would have kept OR support, I wish they would have gone with some other decisions. But its not my game, I didnt build it. If feel the need, Ill vote with my wallet. But launching a crusade to "save" others is a pathetic lie to cover up pure rage issues. There are Plenty of better things to do with your time.


No rage issues. Its just human nature to warn people when a pickpocket is working the room. Maybe you would walk away, but I wouldn't.

Here is the BoS product description on Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/IL-2-Sturmovik-Bat...e+of+stalingrad

It lists the Mission Editor as a current feature in BoS. You and I both know that is not true. Maybe that doesn't bother you, but it bothers me and folks need to be warned about stuff like this. And it doesn't take much time at all.

Saying the ME is included in BoS when it isn't is a pathetic lie, wouldn't you agree?
False Advertising


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#4078452 - 02/14/15 07:46 AM Re: Oculus = dropped [Re: Sgigi]  
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theOden Offline
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theOden  Offline
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Hooves, do you also use an account named "SharpeXB"?
(just curious)

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