Looking, once again, at some experimentation to fix what I think to be waypoint issues for British fighter missions.

About a year ago both Bletchley and Yaan made custom mission files for WOFF. If you take a close look at them they are very good and I was a religious user. The mission types within a given time period seemed to fit my historical ideas of the actual mission types and variety very well.
NOTE: I am not sure of what exactly "Historical Missions" are in the Workshop and how it interacts with the stock missions files.

Anyway my use of these files (and everyone else's apparently) came to a screeching stop when the idea that they "interfered with the increased number of two-seaters introduced with patch 1.26" surfaced here. I vaguely remember the discussion here but....

Is there any truth to this assertion? And if so how? It would seem unlikely to me but I am not privy to all the WOFF inner workings.
As I recall (and I may be wrong) someone stated he "thought" he was seeing fewer two-seaters while using them, someone else half agreed, and the "legend was born."
I have never seen anything official nor anyone with a good explanation of why or how this happens - if true.
Anyone care to give their 2 cents here?

I think it is a perceived bias rather than an actual bias. If someone says "There are fewer 2-seaters in the air, using this Mod" then every in-game experience of greater scout to 2-seater activity will be blamed on the use of the Mod (and scouts are generally experienced more often in-game because they attack you...

There appears to be random variation in the generation of missions, which is also going to be influenced by the number of 2-seater units in your area (compared to scout units) and their level of activity, and probably also other factors. There does appear to be a bias towards scout missions (with or without 3rd Party Mission mods), I think, but this is probably because although 2-seater missions will often generate corresponding escort missions, escort missions that generate corresponding 2-seater missions will be less common. In the area and time that I was testing this was c. 60/40, but in another area or another time it could be very different (even reversed)...

So far as the difference between the number of 2-seater missions is concerned, when using the 3rd Party Mission mod, I think this is also a problem of perception rather than actuality. As the generation of missions appears to be somewhat random, it is like flipping a coin - if you flip a coin 10 times you will rarely get 50% heads and 50% tails. Similarly, if you check the mission after 10 missions (5 with, 5 without the mod, interlaced) you are unlikely to get the same 60/40 proportion for both - there is a 50% chance that a lower than 40% 2-seater level of activity will be indicated (and a 50% chance of higher 2-seater activity). After the first 10 tests that I reported on, rather prematurely, there was indeed an indicated decrease - but the more tests that I then ran, the smaller the difference became, until by 40 (20 with mod, 20 without), that difference had disappeared.

I hope this helps, as it would be a shame if players were avoiding this mod due to these perceived differences in 2-seater activity...

Read more: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4046508/3/Modded_Install_-_3rd_Party_Mis#ixzz3QlY0bUHw

I am still using this mod, without any problems. I am now using an updated version, but as there seems to be no one else using the mod now, I haven't bothered to upload it. I am happy to do so, if anyone else is still using it or if anyone is thinking of going back to using it

B.

Bletchley, I will be happy to get an updated version of it. Thank you very much

As would I.
When using it should the "Historical Missions" setting in the Workshop be on or off?

Bletchley, is your mod updated to work with WOFF v. 2.04 ?

ok, I'll be the bad guy again....

I've been using the mission mod for some time also, but recently, I did find something odd. I'll try to explain best I can. When you select "optional flight" to change your mission waypoints, the mission will automatically change to from whatever it was to an "escort mission" no matter how many times you click on it. I found that the only way to avoid this is to either remove the mod or advance time and not select "optional flight". Now, if this is just affecting the optional flight function of the sim, then I can live with that. But how do I know that the mod is not affecting other functionality of the OOB.

Here's my guess as to what may be happening. When going to the debrief screen, WOFF will decide on mission possibilities for that time/date/etc... and look into the "mission file" for a selection. The problem is that from a programming side, the WOFF manager may be fixed on looking at a certain number of missions inside the file and so it will NOT look at the entire mission file to select missions, but cut short. So, Bletchley's file is too long compared to the vanilla one. The variety in his file is great for immersion, but it seems that WOFF doesn't agree.

Duke has an interesting idea to disable the "historical missions" in workshop, but I'm guessing that it will not help.

Thanks OldHat for your observation but what you saw is not related to the mission mod directly but a WOFF issue I believe.
I've spent a hell of a lot of time clicking through missions, optional flight button, etc over the past 36 hours WITHOUT the mission mod and observed the exact same behavior you are describing.

Since that was not the focus of what I was doing (British waypoints were) I didn't take real careful notes but, and these observations were with "Historical Missions" on and off:
1) The "Optional Flight" button was changing mission types for me but it would eventually get stuck on a certain mission type (Reconnaissance - or Escort - seemed to be a big one) and no matter how many more times you would click you would always get that mission.
2) The "Alternate Target" button that changes your waypoints or target would sometimes be active and sometimes it wouldn't - didn't note a pattern but again that was not the focus of all my clicking.

So I do believe this to be a WOFF thing and not the Mission Mod.

EDIT: Using Bletchley's older version of the mod and flew my first mission with Jasta 5 and ran into a group of RFC Sop 1 1/2 Strutters...FWIW.

Also, it seems that the mission selection with the mod is different than without. I would get no escort or deep offenisive missions when I don't use the mod. When I do use it, I don't get any friendly patrols on our side of the line. This is all in sectors which are not active.

So, I do notice that the mission selection by the WOFF manager does get affected in some way with the mod active.

Oh there is no doubt sir but I will say that is the point of the mod.
Open up the stock mission files and open up the modded mission files - note there is a "Battle Raging" folder and "Quiet" folder - and compare the two and you will see it.
Mission selection with the mods is also dependent on what is going on with the war around you.
Certain mission types will be favored depending on what is going on with the war. A pretty slick feature IMHO.

Again though "Historical Missions" is a bit of a wild card.

Above, in my waypoint testing, with NO mods and with 56 Squadron with Historical Missions ON, in dozens of clicks I would get a lot of "Interception" missions (about 60%) and the rest being split between "Patrol" missions (behind Friendly, Friendly, and Enemy Front lines).

With Historical Missions OFF the Interception missions seemed to be replaced with the various types of Escort missions.
Hardly extensive testing of the Historical Mission feature but interesting.

Rover-27 : OK, I will tidy-up my latest version and up-load it, but probably not until the weekend

DukeIronHand: I think Historical Missions can be either "on" or "off", but I only ever use it with Historical Missions set to "on". See my reply to the same question in the thread linked above:

"How does the Workshop setting "Historical Mission Types" to ON come into play here? Does it effect your missions, the AI, or both?"

On line 13 in each mission segment within the mission file there is a tag - for 2-seaters it is something like 'Reccy' or 'Artillery Cooperation' or 'Bombing' - and each unit is similarly tagged with one or more of these. When Historical Missions is ON, WOFF will look for a match between these tags and, for example, only select a 'bombing' mission if the unit is itself tagged as 'bomber' (and unit tags are multiple and can also change over time), but with the Historical Missions OFF, this tag is ignored and any mission from the file can be (randomly) selected. Or at least, this is the first layer - there are other things happening as well which complicates it. My 3rd Party Missions seem to work in the same way, as they use exactly the same structure and tags, so if you turn Historical Missions OFF any mission from within the relevant 3rd Part Missions file will then be randomly selected, regardless of the way in which the unit and mission has been tagged. I have never fully tested 3rd Party Missions with Historical Missions set to OFF, though, so I can't guarantee that it won't cause some odd unexpected weirdness or problems in places. Try it if you like, and let me know smile

I don't think it effects the AI, just the setting up of the Player's unit mission and any associated escort or escorted mission from other units. All other AI missions are generated from somewhere else within WOFF, from a somewhere that appears to be quite inaccessible

Read more: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4046508/3/Modded_Install_-_3rd_Party_Mis#ixzz3QmJfvq7P

Manfas: yes, I am using it with WOFF v.2.04, and with all add-on packs included.

OldHat: I never use "Optional Flight" or "Alternate Target", so I was not aware of that - but from DukeIronHand's reply it does appear to be an issue with WOFF rather than anything caused by my mod. Incidentally, my mod selects the Flight (i.e. mission type) and the 'target' quite carefully so that some missions and targets get selected more often than others. This is quite deliberate, so I wouldn't advise using "Alternate Target" or "Optional Flight" unless you feel you really have to. So, yes - you do not get some of the missions that you would get with the vanilla missions file (or not as many) and you will get some that you don't ever get with the vanilla missions file (e.g. Spy Drop). If you are flying with a Jasta unit, for example, you will never get any escort missions from January 1917 onwards, as historically this was done by the Schusta 2-seater units (if you fly with a 2-seater unit you will sometimes be instructed to fly as a Schusta protection section, if not flying as the Flight Leader). I have reduced 'Lone Wolf' missions as much as possible, but there are still some there - such as 'Spy Drop' and German high-altitude photographic recon missions: these seem to create some anomalies with waypoints (answer: don't use 'em) and with time recording (it will record the time in your pilot's log, against the mission, but will not add it to your total for time flown). If this bothers people I could create a version that have no 'Lone Wolf' missions, but this would mean cutting out some interesting mission types that are currently in there.

I am fairly sure, after extensive testing and use, that the mod effects only the players flight and any other associated friendly escort flight - it does not effect any other friendly or enemy flights. You can see this is so if you select an Allied pilot career in 1917/18 - if the mod effected German AI mission types you would, for example, never see Jasta units escorting 2-seaters: but you still do! All the missions, with the exception of the player's mission and any directly associated escort mission, are selected and generated by some other part of WOFF, not by the missions file (vanilla or otherwise)

You definitely DO get deep offensive patrols and escorts for recon jobs or bombing runs in the stock version. Maybe your game is broken because of swapping mods in an out to often etc.?
It is depending on offensives and overall period and of what squadrons you are flying for. So there are more offensive squadrons, some are more defensive. But even defensive ones should get here and there offensive patrols.

Finally! A logical explanation of the "Historical Mission" setting in the Workshop.
And now that I read it again your previous post/explanation is now remembered. Old age!

Looking forward to the new version of your "Mission Mod"!

So, for what it's worth, I am convinced with both replies. Thanks. I'll be using the mod.

I admit that I did modify your mod a bit so that each mission follows the same "structure" as the vanilla file and also I cut and pasted all vanilla missions from each file to go at the end of your file (and I changed the number at the top of the file to reflect the correct number of records as well). I did this to potentially avoid any problems with WOFF manager mission selection.

So, a Reconnaisance would never have a "startloop" or "endloop" or be associated with ArtilleryCooperation, but would have the "Loiter" and NULL and be assiciated with a Reccy. I understand that this only affects the waypoints in a mission, but I had assumed that WOFF manager will not select them if they were in a different format due to it's programming.


I don't think that my modifications are what messed everything up, but it could be the case. So, I'll fly with your mod for while and see if it makes a difference.



Nope. WOFF is working fine as I only had done the swapping of mission files once after a 30 hour campaign.

So, a Reconnaisance would never have a "startloop" or "endloop"

A Reconnaisance mission can have the "startloop" "endloop" flightplan - I use this for all the Photographic Reconnaissance and for Long Reconnaissance missions, as it creates a straight-line flight pattern across the target. A Tactical Reconnaisaance or Artillery Observation mission (either Artillery Registration or Counter Battery flash spotting) will have the "loiter" "NULL" flightplan, as it creates a circular flight pattern around the target.

It doesn't matter if you associate Reconnaisance with Artillery Cooperation, as in practice all Reconnaisance units in WOFF appear to be tagged for both Reccy and ArtilleryCooperation, although just to be on the safe side I have now converted them all to Reccy in the latest version of the mod that I am currently using.

If WOFF Manager doesn't like a mission it will throw up an error message and then switch back to the stock mission file. If there is no error message and the mission loads then everything is OK - although one mission type, the 'Lone Wolf' mission, does not fully mesh with WOFF any more (it is a hang-over from OFF, it only works now with 2-seater missions, and creates a number of anomalies when WOFF Manager interprets the result at mission end)

B.

I guess if you really wanted a "Lone Wolf" mission, you could always do what some one suggested and that is to reduce all the other aircraft in your flight to 5% fuel so they will take off, circle and land. That way, you can go about your merry way on your "Lone Wolf" mission.

Nice technical suggestion but somewhat "immersion" breaking!

I wonder if Bletchley could do that in the Missions file (reduce all others fuel load) so he would not have those other problems that WOFF currently presents on "Lone Wolf" missions.

Yes it is a good idea.
Put them all at zero fuel so they don't move and you precede on your merry "Lone Wolf" way.
The problem is, as you know, is I do not think this can be done though the Mission files alone and would require some other manipulation.
Perhaps if they had no waypoints they wouldn't move? You would have none either but your on your own and can do what you want.
Course if you were somehow flight leader for the mission they may follow you off the ground anyway.

That is why it was suggested to only give them 5% of the fuel. They may take off, but they will then circle and land again, leaving you alone to fly your "Lone Wolf" mission.

Well why not 0% then so they can't take off.
I guess the point I was trying to emphasize is that I do not think this can be done with the Mission files.
There is no fuel amount listed for the patrol.