Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
#4071629 - 01/30/15 11:06 AM how to beat mig29 in a turning fight?  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 440
tirta Offline
Member
tirta  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 440
Hi Guys,

I am trying to learn how to beat mig29 in a turning fight (BMS 4.32 - gun vs gun only TE).

I try to stay in corner speed (330-440knots) all the time,
but if I make high g turn too long, my speed bleeds.
It seems that I can not shake it off my six.

So how do you do it?
Please advise.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4071775 - 01/30/15 05:21 PM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 630
Ltfransky Offline
Sith Lord
Ltfransky  Offline
Sith Lord
Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 630
Peterborough, ON, Canada
Doesn't the F-16 do better as a boom and zoom in that situation?


Please Heatware Me!

Ours is not to reason why. Ours is to do or die.
Tennyson

I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings..
Gillespie Magee, RCAF
#4071796 - 01/30/15 06:28 PM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 9,135
Arthonon Offline
Hotshot
Arthonon  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 9,135
California
I'm not sure how helpful this will be, as I'm not sure I really have a step-by-step process and I'm not very good, but here's what I usually try to do.

First, don't let him get behind you at the start, that makes it more difficult. Second, get really comfortable with lag pursuit, and don't feel like you have to keep him in your gun sights the whole time. That usually keeps me from turning too much and getting too slow. For example, if he's diving, then pulls up, I keep diving until I'm about where he pulled up, to maintain energy levels. I'm not a pro by any means, but I have been successful on that TE. Then again, it could just be weak AI.

Here's a video of the last part of one of my TEs that was successful, in case the views give you any ideas. You can see I made plenty of mistakes, but still managed to keep him from shooting me down.



Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#4071923 - 01/30/15 11:46 PM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
Frederf Offline
Member
Frederf  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
In sustained turning rate the F-16 has a tiny but real advantage. You are almost peers. Corner of 440 KT is max instantaneous rate. It's a nice luxury but you cannot maintain it in a dogfight, don't even try. To sustain corner you'll have to fly very bad rate and a large radius. Your potential to turn at any moment will be wonderful but potential is of little help when on fire and full of holes.

Due to the very good low speed handling of the MiG (similar to F/A-18) it's recommended to attempt an energy strategy, patiently gaining angles at max sustained turn or nearly so. Bleed from pulling excess angles affects all fighters but the Fulcrum suffers from this more than the Viper. Pull lead if airspeed if high or aspect is low, bid for lag if airspeed drops or heading crossing angle grows. Use the vertical when an energy advantage develops. Keep is near 350 if you can. Don't get slower than 250 if you can help it.

#4072016 - 01/31/15 10:37 AM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 440
tirta Offline
Member
tirta  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 440
Hi Ltfransky, Arthonon & Frederf,

Thanks for all the advices and ideas.
I will try it.
It seems that I still have a lot to practice and learn.


@ Arthonon
Thanks for the youtube video.
Watching it give me some ideas, I hope I can do it like in your video.

Searching youtube, I find some more videos, like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2OlqaQPwKM
This guy is very good, he make it looks very easy.
Even after I watch it, I still can not do like he is.

@ Frederf
Quote:
Use the vertical when an energy advantage develops

can you explain in more details by energy advantage?
is it when the enemy is in lower altitude than mine?

#4072122 - 01/31/15 06:30 PM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
I'm not sure if I can do 8v1 but on a 1v1, I'm sure I can out-turn a MiG. Then again, it might be weak AI.


- Ice
#4072630 - 02/02/15 01:35 AM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 630
Ltfransky Offline
Sith Lord
Ltfransky  Offline
Sith Lord
Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 630
Peterborough, ON, Canada
That was my thought when I saw the 8vs1 video. He must have lowered the AI


Please Heatware Me!

Ours is not to reason why. Ours is to do or die.
Tennyson

I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings..
Gillespie Magee, RCAF
#4072901 - 02/02/15 08:12 PM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
Frederf Offline
Member
Frederf  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
Originally Posted By: tirta
@ Frederf
Quote:
Use the vertical when an energy advantage develops

can you explain in more details by energy advantage?
is it when the enemy is in lower altitude than mine?


Energy is the sum of your speed and height. An energy advantage means that the sum of your speed and height is better than the sum of his speed and height. That means estimating speed and height of both you and him and knowing the conversion factor. It's more of a gut feeling that comes with experience. Usually as you and the MiG go round and round there will be some vertical wobble to the fight, pointing nose low when you need the turning rate due to gravity and nose high to convert some speed into height and reduce your radius. Over time an energy advantage means you'll be able to stay higher than your opponent and he will be unable to point up at you. Given enough energy you have the "over the top" potential where you can do loop like maneuvers and maybe he can't. Then it's like a fist fight with long arms, you can do things he can't.

#4073161 - 02/03/15 02:06 PM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 440
tirta Offline
Member
tirta  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 440
Thanks, Frederf.

I am beginning to grasp the concept.
However, it is still hard to do it in the sim.

When dogfight, my speed still bleeds a lot,
I guess I still do high g turn too much too soon or too long.
And before I realize it, I have lost my speed and altitude.

I guess I need to practice more,
and be more careful with my turn and my speed.

#4073342 - 02/03/15 07:10 PM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Sustained high-G turns aren't really a good idea. Full mil or burner but turn just enough to keep at corner speed 330-440 knots IIRC.

Doing everything you need to do PLUS keeping an eye on altitude and airspeed gets some getting used to but when you can do it, dogfights start to become really fun.


- Ice
#4073590 - 02/04/15 07:58 AM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 440
tirta Offline
Member
tirta  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 440
thanks Ice.

high g turn is really a dilemma.
too much, you lose your airspeed.
too few, you get a bandit on your six.

do you use afterburner most of the time?
I find using it drains the fuel too fast.
only a few minutes, you have already bingo fuel.

#4073934 - 02/05/15 01:01 AM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
Frederf Offline
Member
Frederf  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
It's called a knife fight in a phone booth for a reason. Dogfighting is like bad sex, quick, violent, and exhausting. Punch off all external stores (fuel/bombs), MAXAB and leave it there for the most part. Fly like you have infinite fuel meaning only throttle back if it helps you tactically. Trying to dogfight economy just means it takes twice as long and burns more gas. The fuel savings come from minimizing the time. It's not unusual for a turning fight to be the only combat you do that day, show up with 7000 lbs and leave with 2000 a couple minutes later but leave in one piece. Dogfighting is one step away from ejecting, something went wrong, forget the mission, survive.

#4074100 - 02/05/15 02:19 PM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 440
tirta Offline
Member
tirta  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 440
Hi Frederf,

Thanks, you do have a valid point there.
I will try to keep it in mind when dogfighting.

Do you know if there are defensive bfm acmi files for bms4.32 available for download?
Youtube videos is not very clear,
most of the times I can not figure out what is going on.

#4074339 - 02/05/15 10:58 PM Re: how to beat mig29 in a turning fight? [Re: tirta]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
You have two choices regarding your fuel when it comes to a dogfight -- use it (smartly!!) in afterburner or have fun watching a big fireball that used to be your F-16.

I think it's the same with countermeasures --- use it or lose it.

While the F-16 can do a high G turn, it doesn't mean you have to do it all the time. Like I said, sometimes you have to lay off the G's to stay in cornerspeed but that's where the F-16 gains the advantage.

As for ACMI files, do one yourself. Start off heading 000, 15,000 feet, 300 knots. Punch in the AB, make a level turn, but keep it at (or as close as) 300 knots. See how long it takes you to do a 360-degree turn back to heading 000. Do it again but start at and try to keep 400 knots. And again at 500 knots. And then do it again three times but this time, don't bother about keeping your speed, just yank that stick back as far as it will go. Compare the results. biggrin Share with us your findings!


- Ice

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Good News!
by Bill_Grant. 10/23/19 02:55 PM
Star Wars IX Final trailer
by Chaz. 10/22/19 01:48 AM
CoD MW Article
by Rick_Rawlings. 10/21/19 06:15 PM
Time marches on
by No105_Archie. 10/21/19 03:02 PM
Why Looney Tunes is great for history buffs
by PanzerMeyer. 10/20/19 11:05 PM
IJN Kaga found.
by NH2112. 10/19/19 10:32 PM
Grouch (Joker Parady)
by Arthonon. 10/19/19 02:19 PM
Nike vs B-17
by KraziKanuK. 10/18/19 08:30 PM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0