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#4069329 - 01/25/15 11:54 PM OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds  
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CatKnight Offline
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I have no clue how this pilot got his plane down safely.

http://www.weather.com/news/weather/video/airplane-struggles-to-land-in-high-winds

#4069519 - 01/26/15 02:56 PM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: CatKnight]  
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It looked like he was side-slipping it in (except that the rudder seemed to be centered.) And the runway surface looked like a roller-coaster. A very good "stick-and-rudder" man.


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is.
#4069578 - 01/26/15 04:34 PM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: CatKnight]  
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HumanDrone Online hick
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A friend of min who is a pilot in real life said that it is tough, as you can imagine. For one thing, you're already "crabbing" - the aircraft is obviously not pointing along the runway, but its course is aligned with the runway. You have to set your upwind wheels down first, then kick the rudder quickly to align the plane with the runway - you can see the second aircraft in the video do that. The roller-coaster runway is probably exaggerated a little due to the long lens being used, but it sure didn't make things any easier.

What gets me is that they were even permitted to try such an extreme landing. I was on an RJ going into a small airport last year when we had to do a go-around because the crosswinds were above the allowables (yes, there is instrumentation that determines this). And it didn't look or feel nearly as bad as these examples. We made it on the second try, and I could feel the upwind wheels hit and the rudder alignment "kick". I felt so frikkin' knowledgeable! wacky


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#4069780 - 01/26/15 09:31 PM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: CatKnight]  
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You ought to see the wheels when they come rolling in after a landing like that... then the smell in the cockpit is always nice too...


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#4069830 - 01/26/15 10:31 PM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: CatKnight]  
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Those pilots do an amazing job, my hats off to them. Cant stop thinking that the first aircraft should have been diverted though.

#4069833 - 01/26/15 10:34 PM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: HumanDrone]  
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busdriver Offline
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Originally Posted By: HumanDrone
A friend of min who is a pilot in real life said that it is tough, as you can imagine. For one thing, you're already "crabbing" - the aircraft is obviously not pointing along the runway, but its course is aligned with the runway. You have to set your upwind wheels down first, then kick the rudder quickly to align the plane with the runway - you can see the second aircraft in the video do that.

I have been in the left seat of the A320/319 (both airplanes in the video) for the last 7 years. The Airbus method is to fly wings level (as best you can) crabbing down final and smoothly apply rudder to align the jet with the runway as you flare. If you time it just right, both main gear touch down simultaneously. However when the winds are really gusting (like the video), this may require aileron input/correction to keep the wings level. Both landings indeed look "sporting," that is to say, challenging.

Quote:
What gets me is that they were even permitted to try such an extreme landing.

The limitation for the A320/319 is a direct crosswind component of 38 knots including gusts. So if the winds were 60 degrees off the landing runway heading at 60 knots, that's only a 30 knot crosswind. But to answer your question. The guys in the Tower do not know our limitations, they don't get to make operational or safety decisions like that. I say this without a hint of snark or sarcasm, those decisions are what the pilots get paid to do. Of course if the guy ahead of you in the landing queue lands, then you think you will also. If one guy goes around for windshear or winds out of limits then guys behind him are more inclined to anticipate doing the same.

Last edited by busdriver; 01/26/15 10:55 PM. Reason: Misidentified the first airplane as a Boeing. Deleted that reference.
#4069846 - 01/26/15 11:16 PM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: CatKnight]  
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gecko Offline
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Is it an actual crosswind limitation you have in the airbus? The aircraft I fly (Cessna 182, 206 and 185) just have a maximum demonstrated crosswind, which is not considered an actual limitation. But of course it really comes down to the pilot knowing what he and the airplane can safely attempt. Personally, not more than 8kts in those airplanes until I get better at it.

#4069860 - 01/26/15 11:44 PM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: busdriver]  
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HarryH Offline
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Originally Posted By: busdriver
Originally Posted By: HumanDrone
A friend of min who is a pilot in real life said that it is tough, as you can imagine. For one thing, you're already "crabbing" - the aircraft is obviously not pointing along the runway, but its course is aligned with the runway. You have to set your upwind wheels down first, then kick the rudder quickly to align the plane with the runway - you can see the second aircraft in the video do that.

I have been in the left seat of the A320/319 (both airplanes in the video) for the last 7 years. The Airbus method is to fly wings level (as best you can) crabbing down final and smoothly apply rudder to align the jet with the runway as you flare. If you time it just right, both main gear touch down simultaneously. However when the winds are really gusting (like the video), this may require aileron input/correction to keep the wings level. Both landings indeed look "sporting," that is to say, challenging.


Oh, you're THAT kind of bus driver... nice! smile

Harry


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#4069888 - 01/27/15 12:58 AM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: gecko]  
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busdriver Offline
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Originally Posted By: gecko
Is it an actual crosswind limitation you have in the airbus? The aircraft I fly (Cessna 182, 206 and 185) just have a maximum demonstrated crosswind, which is not considered an actual limitation. But of course it really comes down to the pilot knowing what he and the airplane can safely attempt. Personally, not more than 8kts in those airplanes until I get better at it.


In answer to your question...38 knots is a Limitation and it is the maximum demonstrated crosswind for Normal Law and Direct Law landings. Checkout Smart Cockpit's A320 page on the right side under Miscellaneous: AO Limitations. Clicking that will download a PDF.

I'm envious of your Cessna 185 experience. Taildragger flying is fun, but I'm far removed from it, with maybe 10-15 hours in a J-3 and a Citrabria. Is this work flying or recreational?

#4069909 - 01/27/15 02:00 AM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: OvStachel]  
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Originally Posted By: OvStachel
You ought to see the wheels when they come rolling in after a landing like that... then the smell in the cockpit is always nice too...



The B-52 has gear that can rotate slightly to allow it to crab as it approaches keeping the gear somewhat aligned with the runway. Interesting setup.

#4069960 - 01/27/15 04:02 AM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: busdriver]  
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HumanDrone Online hick
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Well, I actually conflated the testimony of two pilots I know - one is a right seat on the A330, the other a small plane pilot. The small plane pilot was the one who told me you had to set your upwind wheel down first, etc.

Finally, it was the pilot of the RJ that told me of the crosswind limitation - not a permission from the tower, but from their on regulations based on the type of aircraft, etc - he had a crosswind indicator in the cockpit that told him it was too much, and he had to go around. Then he "called the office," and somehow the decision was made to try one more time before diverting. I think it was an Bombardier CRJ-145.

Thanks for a good description of the process. You can see, especially with the second aircraft, that it was pretty much as you describe. The other fellow must've had a lot of gusts. I think after that one, I'd have to hit the underwear section at the nearest Walmart!

Isn't landing speed on the order of 170 knots? Or is that MPH? Just a quickie using 38 knots & 170 knots, you'd be pointed 13.6 away from the center line. Yikes! Gotta hand it to you guys. Yes, I understand your last statement - the Captain (you) has ultimate responsibility for the aircraft & everyone in it, & only you can make that call.


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#4069997 - 01/27/15 06:32 AM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: busdriver]  
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gecko Offline
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Originally Posted By: busdriver
Originally Posted By: gecko
Is it an actual crosswind limitation you have in the airbus? The aircraft I fly (Cessna 182, 206 and 185) just have a maximum demonstrated crosswind, which is not considered an actual limitation. But of course it really comes down to the pilot knowing what he and the airplane can safely attempt. Personally, not more than 8kts in those airplanes until I get better at it.


In answer to your question...38 knots is a Limitation and it is the maximum demonstrated crosswind for Normal Law and Direct Law landings. Checkout Smart Cockpit's A320 page on the right side under Miscellaneous: AO Limitations. Clicking that will download a PDF.

I'm envious of your Cessna 185 experience. Taildragger flying is fun, but I'm far removed from it, with maybe 10-15 hours in a J-3 and a Citrabria. Is this work flying or recreational?


Thanks for the link and the info, I didn't know about that site, it looks like a great resource! I enjoy my small planes, but I always wonder what it would be like to fly something like an airliner.

Currently my flying is just training. Eventually I hope to fly full time as a bush pilot overseas with a mission/humanitarian organization, but I'm not there yet. Hence the 185 and 206 time. They are great for the small rough strips in the mountains and we get to take them into some pretty cool places. The 185 is by far my favorite, looks beautiful and flies beautiful, but sadly I haven't been able to get much time in it - mostly 206 and the obligatory 172. Maybe one day...

#4070338 - 01/27/15 11:58 PM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: HumanDrone]  
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busdriver Offline
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Originally Posted By: HumanDrone
Finally, it was the pilot of the RJ that told me of the crosswind limitation - not a permission from the tower, but from their on regulations based on the type of aircraft, etc - he had a crosswind indicator in the cockpit that told him it was too much, and he had to go around. Then he "called the office," and somehow the decision was made to try one more time before diverting. I think it was an Bombardier CRJ-145.

Yep, as he said, get your Dispatcher on the radio and discuss your situation and fuel status. It can get busy for the Dispatcher who might be working a half dozen flights at one time.

FWIW, Bombardier makes the CRJ-200/700/900 which looks like a miniature DC-9 (or MD-80). And Embraer makes the ERJ-145 that also looks like a miniature DC-9. They also make the ERJ-175/190 that looks like a miniature 737.

Quote:
Isn't landing speed on the order of 170 knots? Or is that MPH? Just a quickie using 38 knots & 170 knots, you'd be pointed 13.6 away from the center line. Yikes!

Landing speed depends on gross weight AND slat/flap configuration. I typically see around 120 Knots Indicated Airspeed (KIAS) up to 150 KIAS if we're near max landing weight. Which compared to the BIG boys is pretty light, approximately 142,000 pounds.

#4070342 - 01/28/15 12:17 AM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: OvStachel]  
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busdriver Offline
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Originally Posted By: OvStachel
You ought to see the wheels when they come rolling in after a landing like that... then the smell in the cockpit is always nice too...


On the Bus (and on some/most but NOT all other airliners) we have a digital temperature readout for each of the four brakes. The indication turns from green to amber when a brake temp gets above 300C. This is a fairly common occurrence once we park at the gate/terminal especially at high altitude airports, or if the pilot has a tendency to "ride" the brakes whilst taxiing. It's the nature of carbon brakes versus steel brakes. In this video, I'd honestly have no concerns about brake temps after landing. Many Airbus air carriers have brake fans installed on the landing gear.

As far as funky smells in the cockpit...it's NEVER from the brakes. It's often from a passenger that took a dump in the First Class biffy/head/loo (or as I like to say, they "committed an atrocity!"). Seriously...the stench comes wafting into the cockpit in flight. Or the First Officer (co-pilot) had an egg and bean burrito for breakfast.

#4070735 - 01/28/15 06:55 PM Re: OT - Passenger jet landing in heavy winds [Re: busdriver]  
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HumanDrone Online hick
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Originally Posted By: busdriver
Originally Posted By: HumanDrone
Finally, it was the pilot of the RJ that told me of the crosswind limitation - not a permission from the tower, but from their on regulations based on the type of aircraft, etc - he had a crosswind indicator in the cockpit that told him it was too much, and he had to go around. Then he "called the office," and somehow the decision was made to try one more time before diverting. I think it was an Bombardier CRJ-145.

Yep, as he said, get your Dispatcher on the radio and discuss your situation and fuel status. It can get busy for the Dispatcher who might be working a half dozen flights at one time.

FWIW, Bombardier makes the CRJ-200/700/900 which looks like a miniature DC-9 (or MD-80). And Embraer makes the ERJ-145 that also looks like a miniature DC-9. They also make the ERJ-175/190 that looks like a miniature 737.

Quote:
Isn't landing speed on the order of 170 knots? Or is that MPH? Just a quickie using 38 knots & 170 knots, you'd be pointed 13.6 away from the center line. Yikes!

Landing speed depends on gross weight AND slat/flap configuration. I typically see around 120 Knots Indicated Airspeed (KIAS) up to 150 KIAS if we're near max landing weight. Which compared to the BIG boys is pretty light, approximately 142,000 pounds.


Yeah, I much prefer the ERJ 175/190 series. Funny, as much as I've been a passenger I conflated the ERJ/CRJ numbering. The early CRJ's, at least, have the passenger window down so low that you have to bend over to gawk around while taxiing or to see the horizon in flight. I end up with a sore neck.

So now I'm back to the calculator... and if you're landing light at 120 knots, with a 38 knot direct crosswind, now you're up to 17.5 yaw... that'd be fun!

And speaking of diverting, here's a thread diversion: I've often remarked to other passengers how we slowly descend from cruising altitude, and just gently make our way from ~510 mph & ~35K feet or so down to approach speeds & altitudes over the course of a half an hour or so. But the Space Shuttle used to pass over my sister's place in Florida, about 40 miles away from the Cape, at 90,000 ft. and mach 3, only to perform a dead stick landing about 5 minutes later at about 220 mph!

Of course, I'm also aware that airliners can take 'way more that they are usually subjected to, but hey...

Thanks for the info!


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