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#4067092 - 01/21/15 03:41 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! *** [Re: Bucksnort]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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You're not disproving my points, you're only trying to argue against the conclusion while avoiding every point I made. Numerous repeats of the statements "we decided everything" is not a justification of those decisions, it's an attempt to deflect them. WHY did they decide on these things that no one supported? WHY did they resist changing it when it was blatantly obvious that NO ONE was thrilled with it, that it was split between apathy and abject hatred? What was so damned wonderful about their original design document that they're going to fall on their swords to uphold rather than admit sticking to their guns was monumentally stupid?

Please show me the developer diary where it was stated:
"The campaign will consist of a series of disconnected missions featuring a nameless pilot, nothing will carry over from one mission to the next, that will consist of fly to X, find a few planes to fight (or not) as part of your mission, then fly to Y and perhaps run across other planes en route, then fly home...always 4 waypoints. Should you venture away from those waypoints, you will not find any other planes doing anything, they're only going to appear along your route. Bomber formations will consist of 3 planes. The odds of seeing more than 10 planes in the air at any one time are remote at best. We are looking at making a very sparse, lifeless, limited representation of how combat over Stalingrad was during this period. Oh, and it will have meaningless unlocks that add nothing unless you're an achievement addict."

Because that's what they're apparently defending and taking responsibility for coming up with.

"Yes, we could have made it more engaging, had some random stuff going on that made you felt like you were part of a larger conflict, with changing waypoints and a variety of missions that would leave you guessing what would come next, with each mission's outcome of success or failure affecting what you would do next...but we decided to stick with our design document because, damn, it was SO AWESOME."




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4067118 - 01/21/15 04:27 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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lokitexas Offline
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+1 on those points.

#4067136 - 01/21/15 05:01 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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BlueHeron Offline
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Well put, JM. While I am enjoying BoS a great deal (because each aircraft presents it's own challenges), I suspect that once the campaign is finished I'll return to CloD for good.

All it would take is an engaging, static community-made campaign to make this game awesome. Here's hoping!

#4067140 - 01/21/15 05:24 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Bucksnort Offline
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And that's why soooo many people are frustrated with BoS. The new customer experience is: Here are some very nice planes and a very nice map, and this...

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master

"The campaign will consist of a series of disconnected missions featuring a nameless pilot, nothing will carry over from one mission to the next, that will consist of fly to X, find a few planes to fight (or not) as part of your mission, then fly to Y and perhaps run across other planes en route, then fly home...always 4 waypoints. Should you venture away from those waypoints, you will not find any other planes doing anything, they're only going to appear along your route. Bomber formations will consist of 3 planes. The odds of seeing more than 10 planes in the air at any one time are remote at best. We are looking at making a very sparse, lifeless, limited representation of how combat over Stalingrad was during this period. Oh, and it will have meaningless unlocks that add nothing unless you're an achievement addict."

Great summary, Jedi!

And most customers aren't reveling in this huge fail, they are in disbelief that 1CGS could have such a huge miss. I'm sure 1CGS is not happy about the way BoS has been received, but BoS customers are even more unhappy about the BoS single player experience. Nobody wanted this (well maybe a few). But for the large part, nobody wanted this. Most of us were enthusiastic supporters of the BoS project.

And the most frustrating thing of all is the response from 1CGS when confronted with the above description (by Jedi):

"What? What?......What? We don't see a problem!"

Single player content was supposed to be the focus of BoS. The SP Campaign was supposed to be the centerpiece of the game, and instead we get this!


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#4067144 - 01/21/15 05:32 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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Great Post Jedi, actually made me LOL a little smile

#4067175 - 01/21/15 06:21 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Desode Offline
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Great Post Jedi !


Forumrunners.com When you crave teamwork at the Highest Level ! Were waiting for you !


#4067178 - 01/21/15 06:33 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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dburne Offline
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Yes, awesome post Jedi!

thumbsup


Don

EVGA X-79 Dark MB|I-7 4820K@4.50 GHz|EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3|16GB Corsair Dominator PC2133 Ram|Oculus Rift CV1|Virpil T-50 stick, Warthog throttle|MFG Crosswind Pedals
#4067193 - 01/21/15 06:54 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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Chucky Online sosad
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Post of the month for me Jedi,well put yep


The man who invented sexual innuendos has died. His wife is taking it really hard.
#4067223 - 01/21/15 07:40 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Revvin Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
You're not disproving my points, you're only trying to argue against the conclusion while avoiding every point I made. Numerous repeats of the statements "we decided everything" is not a justification of those decisions, it's an attempt to deflect them.


I posted those quotes not as an argument but because you were having a hard time believing 777 could be behind those decisions, you also said earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
There's no doubt the unlocks are stupidity dictated by the 1C suits


Aside from you having a hard time believing statements made by two high level team members on three separate occasions I agree with a lot of what you said about the campaign which I went into more detail in another thread and what I'd like to see that could possibly improve it in my opinion. I think you must be mistaking me for someone else if you think I'm trying to justify their decisions.

I agree it is odd that given their experience in Rise of Flight and knowing how much demand there was for a strong campaign and how welcomed the beta career was that they would throw that all away and ape War Thunder. Taking into consideration the unimaginative campaign, its lifeless boring state, the graphics options that were taken away and pre-sets put in their place as more content was added and the seeming unwillingness to give everyone the missions editor even though a select few have it then you have to wonder is the engine capable of delivering a solid campaign experience? Is this the reason why we don't have the engaging single player campaign experience and so knowing they cannot deliver it did they decide to go for a slice of the War Thunder pie as a consolation prize?

Perhaps they hoped to buy enough time to get a return on their investment by promising "it'll be alright on the night" and then that night came and it was nowhere near alright so now the mantra is "the mission editor is coming, the mission editor is coming" but until we see it and see what its capable of then its all pie in the sky and given the developers track record for underhand practices like paid shills on forums, trying to scare their community into boosting metacritic scores, banning vocal critics etc. then their "coming soon" will be treated with a healthy dose of scepticism.

#4067604 - 01/22/15 02:05 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

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I'm simply stating that of everything they've said, the statement "we made these decisions and stand behind them" is the one I believe LEAST. They're not that dumb, at least Jason certainly isn't. Maybe they are standing behind them now, but in no scenario can I see the product that now sits before us as the fully realized aim of their original design.
As late as the video that introduced the SP campaign they were talking about it having a lot more depth than what we actually got, so it's obvious there were performance, money, or time issues (or a combination) that necessitated a massive scale back to what we have now.

I will believe what we have is a compromise that fell short of their "design document". I will believe that whoever these "small number of partners" are, other than the ones we've seen in the forums like Loft and Jason, they aren't really sim experts and argued that the War Thunder model of grinding and unlocks was worth pursuing as a framework over the "sim" that Jason was trying to make, perhaps in the hope of later convincing them to drop it, at least for the western paid-in-full version.

Jason could swear on a Bible and testify in a court of law that BoS now is what he originally wanted to make, these decisions were not against his better judgement, follows his original plan, and he stands behind it and I would throw him in jail for perjury and contempt of court.
Because I believe Jason would lie like that to protect his own job and maintain the unified front, but not that he ever made those choices.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4067640 - 01/22/15 03:04 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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Revvin Offline
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Then I'm not sure what to suggest in the face of such dogged determination to ignore the facts presented to you. It could have been feature creep, it could have been limitations of the engine, we don't know. We could be right we could be wrong but what we do actually know is that they stated unequivocally they were responsible for all of the design decisions, they were responsible for the unlocks, there was no mythical evil 1C making them do these things. There is no hidden meaning or reading between the lines, they made it quite clear. They would not be the first developer to think they know what is best for their customers or to change direction and upset their fans.

#4068248 - 01/23/15 03:55 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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Sierra Hotel

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A statement from someone is NOT a fact.

To put it plainly: Jason saying it was his decision is not proof that it was his decision. It is proof that he's publicly taking responsibility for it after the fact.

It boils down to the fact that I believe Jason is smart but lying to us over him being a truthful idiot, because there is no scenario where Jason can take what he learned on years of ROF and say that this decision was smart or correct. All his statements say that this decision was made and they then decided not to change it. He never says "because to have given you all what you clearly want would have been wrong" or "this way is better than what you all want" because he doesn't think that.

He NEVER says "this is better". He NEVER says "you are all wrong." He just says "it was my decision to make it this way and mine not to change it." That is the statement of either a liar or an idiot.

You go ahead and believe he's stupid, I'll believe he's lying.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4068252 - 01/23/15 04:07 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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Sounds like both.

#4068296 - 01/23/15 05:27 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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Revvin Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
A statement from someone is NOT a fact.

To put it plainly: Jason saying it was his decision is not proof that it was his decision. It is proof that he's publicly taking responsibility for it after the fact.


Not 'statement' its 'statements' i.e more than one made by two people, both holding positions of authority within the company made on three separate occassions. Three separate statements corroborating each other - are you holding out for a sworn affidavit before you believe what is right before your eyes?


Originally Posted By: Loft
1C and 777 Studios have agreed to the concept and 1C is entrusting design decisions to the development team. There is no heavy handed direction from 1C as far as design is concerned. We are only limited by our time, budgets and the market. Business decisions such as retail and distribution models are jointly decided.


Originally Posted By: Jason_Williams
NO ONE pushed us to do anything early. ALL decisions are made by us, no mythical, evil 1C. We are 1CGS (1C-77 Ltd.). A very small group of managers and owners who are the devs. You guys really have the wrong impression of what 1C is. All is according to the plan set 2 years ago.


Originally Posted By: Jason_Williams
And I have said it many times before. 1C has nothing to do with the unlocks. The community has an incorrect view of what 1C is or how it operates. All big decisions were made by the board of directors of which the majority are not from 1C at all. 1C has not dictated anything to 777 or 1CGS, nor did they dictate anything to any other previous team except make a product that is quality, that works and on a reasonable budget. Just like all other parent companies do.

#4068341 - 01/23/15 06:34 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master

You go ahead and believe he's stupid, I'll believe he's lying.






To repeat myself, since apparently you believe repetition of a statement is proof of its veracity.

If I say three times on separate occasions, and I can get someone else to say as well, that I am actually Barack Obama and this is just how I like to spend my spare time, will you believe it?



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4068375 - 01/23/15 07:34 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Desode Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
A statement from someone is NOT a fact.

To put it plainly: Jason saying it was his decision is not proof that it was his decision. It is proof that he's publicly taking responsibility for it after the fact.

It boils down to the fact that I believe Jason is smart but lying to us over him being a truthful idiot, because there is no scenario where Jason can take what he learned on years of ROF and say that this decision was smart or correct. All his statements say that this decision was made and they then decided not to change it. He never says "because to have given you all what you clearly want would have been wrong" or "this way is better than what you all want" because he doesn't think that.

He NEVER says "this is better". He NEVER says "you are all wrong." He just says "it was my decision to make it this way and mine not to change it." That is the statement of either a liar or an idiot.

You go ahead and believe he's stupid, I'll believe he's lying.



The Jedi Master


+1 Jedi !

I believe he is lying too,,, and After all the insanity I have seen 1C pull over the years I can not believe that they don't have more say in this when they hold the license to the Il2 brand !
That would not fit what I personally know of 1C publishing when it comes to having control in their business dealings.

They have however always been out to screw their fan bases and make a buck off the Il2 brand and not give two craps about anything else.

I really feel Bad for Jason,, He is a smart guy and everything I have seen from him in the past has been very respectful.
I guess that's why, I try to give him the benefit of the doubt no matter what he says with this game.
My gut tells me he is in a difficult situation right now and as a business person myself I respect that situation and the legalities of what that could be.



Dez

Last edited by Desode; 01/23/15 07:57 PM.

Forumrunners.com When you crave teamwork at the Highest Level ! Were waiting for you !


#4068385 - 01/23/15 07:57 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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777 Studios - Jason Offline
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Calling me a liar??? I NEVER LIE to my customers, EVER!! All of you calling me a liar are way, way, way, way off-base. Show me exactly where I have lied EVER to any of you??? 1C has never done ANYTHING to harm this community. Any issues you don't like are the fault of the team or direct management, not some evil 1C. If there was some conspiracy I would quit. 1C has been nothing but be supportive and level headed to us and put their money where their mouth is. Without 1C you have no original IL-2, no CLOD and no BOS. 1C did not screw up CLOD or pull the plug before suffering huge monetary losses and suffering empty promises by others. 1C did not break anything, they provided money to fix whatever was broken. You guys don't get it.

The personal insults on this board are beyond the pail. I have labored for many years now to give simmers enjoyment and something to look forward to with their favorite hobby and this is what I get? Being called a liar after all this time and all that I have fought hard to bring you. So, so, so God damn tired of it.

Jason

#4068387 - 01/23/15 08:04 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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Airdrop01 Offline
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Wow.


"For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Matthew 5:11

Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and merciful. James 5:11
#4068389 - 01/23/15 08:05 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Bucksnort]  
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Airdrop01 Offline
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I guess I can go use the "powerful mission editor."

Oh. Wait.


"For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Matthew 5:11

Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and merciful. James 5:11
#4068390 - 01/23/15 08:06 PM Re: It's a GAME, not a SIM! [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Revvin Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Originally Posted By: Jedi Master

You go ahead and believe he's stupid, I'll believe he's lying.






To repeat myself, since apparently you believe repetition of a statement is proof of its veracity.

If I say three times on separate occasions, and I can get someone else to say as well, that I am actually Barack Obama and this is just how I like to spend my spare time, will you believe it?



The Jedi Master


Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason
Calling me a liar??? I NEVER LIE to my customers, EVER!! All of you calling me a liar are way, way, way, way off-base. Show me exactly where I have lied EVER to any of you??? 1C has never done ANYTHING to harm this community. Any issues you don't like are the fault of the team or direct management, not some evil 1C. If there was some conspiracy I would quit. 1C has been nothing but be supportive and level headed to us and put their money where their mouth is. Without 1C you have no original IL-2, no CLOD and no BOS. 1C did not screw up CLOD or pull the plug before suffering huge monetary losses and suffering empty promises by others. 1C did not break anything, they provided money to fix whatever was broken. You guys don't get it.

The personal insults on this board are beyond the pail. I have labored for many years now to give simmers enjoyment and something to look forward to with their favorite hobby and this is what I get? Being called a liar after all this time and all that I have fought hard to bring you. So, so, so God damn tired of it.

Jason


So Jedi, do you need him to sign that statement? swear on oath? come over to your house and tell you in person?

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