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#4048720 - 12/10/14 08:00 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: MarkG]  
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Originally Posted By: MarkG
Originally Posted By: Peally
Yours, they stole your legally purchased licenses and install media wink


Correct, they store YOUR property. wink


Right, but since you never owned the source code in the first place it was never yours, just the licenses to install and/or use the software/music/whatever wink

The physical disks are still your legally owned property.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
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#4048722 - 12/10/14 08:01 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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"Ownership" of media (music, movies, games) has always been the same, hasn't it? It's no different today than it was 30 years ago, except that today it's popular to accept licensing agreements which allow a provider to shut off purchased media at their discretion. That's all that's really changed (for those that accept it), right?



The rusty wire that holds the cork that keeps the anger in
Gives way and suddenly it’s day again
The sun is in the east
Even though the day is done
Two suns in the sunset, hmph
Could be the human race is run
#4048724 - 12/10/14 08:02 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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Originally Posted By: Mechanus

If it was breaking and entering just to steal a few dollars worth of movies, the worth of the movies isn't going to be the serious issue the thief is looking at it.


Exactly!

Why are the fines so ridiculously and insanely out of proportion to the "crime" for what you might do with the DVD in your player? DRM and copyright law is law as written by corporations and enforced and financed by government. This is a manifest breakdown in the system. And it goes to show that there is a huge underlying problem, a paradigm shift, that is afoot. And before the waters descend, those who don't want anything to change, with their fingers in the dykes (Oh my...) will stand fast and stand tough, swearing never to give in, and then... they will be swept away.


Question everything!
#4048727 - 12/10/14 08:08 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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The issue with current economic model is we are slowly moving away from a product based economy to a service based economy. The continuing technological development is making it progressively easier to manufacture and duplicate products to the point their commercial value is virtually null.

Film, music, books and software were the first to be hit by this but it is going to start spreading to other fields as 3d printing becomes cheaper and widespread.

The fundamental issue at hand is when someone makes a copy of something without the original creator having authorized it is it stealing?

Well, the act of stealing is more than just to take something without permission. It is the consequences that come from that act that makes it a theft: the original owner of the stolen item loses the right to use it. For example if a car is stolen the owner cannot use it anymore and may never have it back. He lost not only the vehicle but the all the benefits that it gave.

So when someone makes an unauthorized copy of a film/music/book/software what has the original owner lost? He still has the original product as before and he still can benefit from it. Fundamentally he has lost nothing. Therefore the act of unauthorized copying is not theft.

So what it is then? It is an unauthorized copy. That's it.

If it is legal or not that is another issue that is derived from the need to make a profit, but that is a consequence of the product based economic system we live in. And that's why we, the users are legally denied the ownership of the software we use and are forced onto an artificial system of licensing that uses increasingly more draconian methods to enforce it.


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By reading this You acknowledge that Your body and soul, including all your worldly possessions, are now property of this poster. Any unauthorized use of them will be punished.
#4048728 - 12/10/14 08:10 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Peally]  
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Originally Posted By: Peally
Originally Posted By: MarkG
Originally Posted By: Peally
Yours, they stole your legally purchased licenses and install media wink


Correct, they store YOUR property. wink


Right, but since you never owned the source code in the first place it was never yours, just the licenses to install and/or use the software/music/whatever wink

The physical disks are still your legally owned property.


Isn't this a strawman argument?

Of course I don't own AutoCAD (I can't claim I developed it and sell it as my own), just a license to use it. I use to agree to Autodesk's perpetual licenses (and still do for the older version I use), but I no longer agree to their current online-connected subscription licenses, which would allow them to cut me off or force upgrades at their discretion.



The rusty wire that holds the cork that keeps the anger in
Gives way and suddenly it’s day again
The sun is in the east
Even though the day is done
Two suns in the sunset, hmph
Could be the human race is run
#4048733 - 12/10/14 08:22 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Cold_Flying]  
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Originally Posted By: Cold_Flying




Why are the fines so ridiculously and insanely out of proportion to the "crime" for what you might do with the DVD in your player? DRM and copyright law is law as written by corporations and enforced and financed by government.


This is a larger issue with the influence of money on the government is in general. It's similar how an energy lobby establishes energy policy, or how large commercial growers and food producers establish immigration policy. From that standpoint, yeah, the deck is stacked. Ideally however, if Sony BMG released a CD with my music on it, I would likely seek a legal remedy, even if I previously said it were ok to download Sony music. Ideally, the protection should work equally both ways, it should just as readily protect the little guy from his rights being trampled. If it doesn't, that is a problem with the system.

#4048734 - 12/10/14 08:25 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: MarkG]  
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Originally Posted By: MarkG
Originally Posted By: Peally
Originally Posted By: MarkG
Originally Posted By: Peally
Yours, they stole your legally purchased licenses and install media wink


Correct, they store YOUR property. wink


Right, but since you never owned the source code in the first place it was never yours, just the licenses to install and/or use the software/music/whatever wink

The physical disks are still your legally owned property.


Isn't this a strawman argument?

Of course I don't own AutoCAD (I can't claim I developed it and sell it as my own), just a license to use it. I use to agree to Autodesk's perpetual licenses (and still do for the older version I use), but I no longer agree to their current online-connected subscription licenses, which would allow them to cut me off or force upgrades at their discretion.


I think we're saying the same thing, you are correct


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#4048735 - 12/10/14 08:28 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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So to those that think sites like the Pirate Bay are OK for whatever use anyone wants, what would you do? Just say "no harm done" and consider it a white collar crime that should be legalized? I wonder if those in the affected industries feel the same way?

The whole things stinks of a "what's yours is mine" utopian fantasy.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#4048740 - 12/10/14 08:31 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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This was deftly illustrated in a Dilbert Cartoon.

I just remember the woman character, who didn't make it as a singer because she only sold ONE copy of her album.
And yet EVERY other character comes up to her and says "Oh you sing that? I love that song! I have your album on my iPod."

And for you slightly frost bitten, tree climbing Northerners*, the moral is that she had to work because she was never able to sell any albums because everyone had already copied/shared her songs.

smile



*Whom I have the utmost respect and admiration for! wave


~Bill

In my defense, I was left unsupervised...
#4048742 - 12/10/14 08:32 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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I resent that remark!


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#4048748 - 12/10/14 08:36 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Bill_Grant]  
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Originally Posted By: Bill_Grant
who didn't make it as a singer because she only sold ONE copy of her album.


I think the last album from Vanilla Ice sold one copy and that's without any illegal copying.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4048773 - 12/10/14 09:14 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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There's another consideration for people old enough to have lived through the changes...

How many times are we going to have to buy the same movie?! smile

Betamax (for those who had one)
VHS
Laser Disc (for those who had one)
DVD
Blu-ray
???

Music too, LP/tape then CD.

Not to mention re-masters and anniversary editions.

I believe too that if you purchase from iTunes (for example), you're automatically eligible for higher bit-rate upgrading as available, is this correct?

Even if I don't (and in some cases can't), I can understand why people do subscription/streaming media today.

#4048788 - 12/10/14 09:39 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Peally]  
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Originally Posted By: Peally
I resent that remark!


Look up "Shameless silver tongued Texan" in the dictionary, and thar be Bill. Arrrrgh! cool


Question everything!
#4048813 - 12/10/14 10:30 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Bill_Grant]  
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Originally Posted By: Bill_Grant

And for you slightly frost bitten, tree climbing Northerners*, the moral is that she had to work because she was never able to sell any albums because everyone had already copied/shared her songs.

smile


I hear you, and to a large degree I agree with you.

Here's the problem; I have two kids, 16 and 18, both are great kids. They are both dedicated to their educations, don't smoke cigarettes or dope, and even my 18 year-old at college has about a beer a month if that. But!... they both view "free information", meaning all media, as an inherent right their generation does and should enjoy. They are surrounded by it and immersed in it. It is symbiotic with their lifestyles and with the lifestyles of everyone their age. Add to this that this is the most tech savvy generation ever. Young people have easy and constant access to information and technology you and I couldn't have dreamed of when we were knee deep in LEGO and GI Joes. These kids jailbreak everything, they download everything, they amass advanced technological information by osmosis. They are informed like no generation before them. And their tech-savvy is not an atomized phenomenon but cultural. And what they do is only going to get easier, faster, and more widespread. And odds are, there is nothing anyone can do about it. Because the people who will try to stop them are a generation behind. The new generation will win. The new generation always wins.


This is a genie that is not going back in the bottle. The question that remains is how will the old farts come to terms with it?


Question everything!
#4048817 - 12/10/14 10:33 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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Hey, I'm probably a part of your kid's generation too, keep that in mind. Where there's thieves there's cranky young dudes like me working for the feds.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#4048826 - 12/10/14 10:47 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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Well, if you look at it this way- in Plato's time, there was no such thing as copyright or individual ownership of ideas. In academia, in school, they didn't cite their sources, what we call plagiarism now was par for the course, if they credited or attributed ideas to others it was more for the practical reason of noting where it may have come from and who they are refuting rather than any legal or ethical reason. Knowledge was communal, but just taught to the elite classes who could receive a formal education- but not owned or protected legally.

As with all things, that regime changed, and may in time change again. But the reasons why it did change from that model I'm sure we can all guess from arguments of investment and labor.

#4048827 - 12/10/14 10:48 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Peally]  
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Originally Posted By: Peally
Hey, I'm probably a part of your kid's generation too, keep that in mind. Where there's thieves there's cranky young dudes like me working for the feds.


Yes, but you're always one step behind!


I Want To Believe
#4048836 - 12/10/14 11:00 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Kodiak]  
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Originally Posted By: Kodiak
Originally Posted By: Peally
Hey, I'm probably a part of your kid's generation too, keep that in mind. Where there's thieves there's cranky young dudes like me working for the feds.


Yes, but you're always one step behind!


True that!

This is a fight authority will lose. History says so.

If a few years, the data flow will be so fast and so huge and so widespread, and it will happen on devices the size of a wrist watch working on public networks and will use every increasing technological sophistication to elude detection.

There's no way to win, only to adapt.


Question everything!
#4048843 - 12/10/14 11:14 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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I wonder, do today's children surrounded by technology at birth have such an advantage over us older kids? smile



Computer Science was fascinating back in the day and you had to have at least some computer literacy to even get and then keep the machine working (today it's taken for granted).

Focus was mainly on one platform, no internet to divide our time, and the purpose was usually to become more productive, not socialize with a couple hundred "friends". smile



The rusty wire that holds the cork that keeps the anger in
Gives way and suddenly it’s day again
The sun is in the east
Even though the day is done
Two suns in the sunset, hmph
Could be the human race is run
#4048845 - 12/10/14 11:19 PM Re: The Pirate Bay has set sail for Costa Rica [Re: Desert Eagle]  
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Mechanus Offline
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Skill sets have always evolved and always will evolve, but It also depends what your criteria is. Attila the Hun could show you that civilization was a weakening factor, not a strengthening factor. Still, when it works right, civilization is an advantage. But when not...

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