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#4047075 - 12/07/14 03:21 PM F-16s Can't Dogfight??!  
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http://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2014/11/24/f-16s_cant_dogfight_mig-29s_su-27s.html

Ummm....what?! The F-16 was BUILT for dogfighting. It is capable of turning at forces in excess of what the human body can tolerate. It has one of the most expansive 'bubble' cockpit views in any modern aircraft. It carries Sidewinders and the Slammer.

Is anyone else as befuddled at this decision as I am?


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#4047093 - 12/07/14 03:51 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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Well, it can dogfight... provided the guy inside it knows what he's doing. Which means he needs to be trained. Which is what they were hoping NOT to do in order to save money.


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#4047123 - 12/07/14 04:52 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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Quote:
Apparently, more modern MiG-29s and Su-27s were too dangerous for the Block 50s, if the American planes pilots were mostly focusing their training on attacking defenses on the ground.


Emphasis mine. F-22's and F-15C pilots train for pretty much one thing only: Shooting other aircraft out of the sky. They're generally better equipped to do it, and absolutely better trained to do it.

Air to air training has a lot to do with success rates - it's a skill that perishes quickly if you don't maintain it, and you don't get as much time to maintain it if you're training on pounding mud (although, BFM is the basis of all air combat - but specific training is well, specific smile )

Last edited by GrayGhost; 12/07/14 04:53 PM.

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#4047160 - 12/07/14 07:16 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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To build on GrayGhost's post, the article is not saying the aircraft is incapable of dogfighting but rather USAF training has shifted its focus to ground attack for the F-16 in recent years. With a limited budget and two wars which required CAS against opponents with no air to air capability this is not surprising.

#4047163 - 12/07/14 07:26 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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So, the -16 is about to become what the F-4 was back in the day?


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#4047171 - 12/07/14 07:44 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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It already has, really. The pilots don't get as much A2A training in, and if that is the case, it shouldn't be their main task. Against lower capability targets, that's not as big of a problem.


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#4047176 - 12/07/14 08:02 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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The problem is that lower capability targets is not what's on the horizon.

-C-

#4047177 - 12/07/14 08:03 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
To build on GrayGhost's post, the article is not saying the aircraft is incapable of dogfighting but rather USAF training has shifted its focus to ground attack for the F-16 in recent years. With a limited budget and two wars which required CAS against opponents with no air to air capability this is not surprising.


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#4047194 - 12/07/14 08:46 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: Timothy]  
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Originally Posted By: Timothy
Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
To build on GrayGhost's post, the article is not saying the aircraft is incapable of dogfighting but rather USAF training has shifted its focus to ground attack for the F-16 in recent years. With a limited budget and two wars which required CAS against opponents with no air to air capability this is not surprising.


Always preparing for the last war....


Just thinking about that. Sad.


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#4047220 - 12/07/14 09:53 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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I find it interesting that it used to be the planes had to be so specialized that they would by nature focus on A2A or A2G. Nobody expected an F-105 to be a knife fighter, nor an F-8 to be a precision bomber, or their respective crews to be masters of those skills, and it was too expensive or technically challenging to make a plane that could do it all anyway.

Now we have the technology and designs with true multi-role aircraft capability, and it is too expensive to maintain pilot proficiency for all of its capabilities.

Either way, if the threat starts to change, it is a lot easier in this day and age to re-train pilots if need be than to build a new airplane.

It also makes me wonder about new multi-roles like the F-35... are we going to have the same proficiency challenges with that airplane? I couldn't imagine why not. And even if you go the route of having different wings or squadrons in the same aircraft focusing on the different missions, you will still to some extent have a compromised design that will hamper both. Maybe in the end it is better to have single purpose aircraft (and crews) who can master of one arena.

Not that it will matter in the long run anyway, it will all be drones.

#4047260 - 12/07/14 11:29 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: Timothy]  
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Originally Posted By: Timothy


Always preparing for the last war....


There you go, a shame, really.


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#4047289 - 12/08/14 01:53 AM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: RuhRoh]  
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Originally Posted By: RuhRoh


Not that it will matter in the long run anyway, it will all be drones.



They have been saying that for the last 60 years...


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#4047293 - 12/08/14 02:12 AM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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I've heard it suggested that most of the F-16 fleet doesn't have much airframe life left in them if flown hard, so this may also be a way of extending their service life given the delays in the F-35 program.

#4047294 - 12/08/14 02:15 AM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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It would cost a fortune to replace the F-16 fleet with F-35s.
I dont see it happening.

#4047328 - 12/08/14 04:14 AM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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If this is the plan for these airframes, I see a smaller air force in our future.


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#4047344 - 12/08/14 05:50 AM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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It would cost a fortune to replace them with new F-16s, too.

And yes, air forces tend to get smaller. Look at the number of WW2 fighters vs the number of fighters today. Same with bombers.

As those aircraft become more effective, and more expensive, you end up needing fewer of them. In some respect, this can also lower cost, but there's a lower bound to how many aircraft you can have if you want to project power.


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#4047385 - 12/08/14 09:27 AM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
but there's a lower bound to how many aircraft you can have if you want to project power.


Look at the F22, training accidents may leave us with a fleet that's too small to do its mission by the time it's retired in 25 years.


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#4047506 - 12/08/14 03:29 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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The very idea of building F-16s was they couldn't build enough F-15s due to cost. Yet the F-16 couldn't carry RH missiles, either. Not until the C model and the 120 in the late 90s did that become standard. Before that it was just the ADF Sparrow-equipped models (replacing aging F-106s and F-4s) with them.

You don't train paratroopers in SEAL tactics. You don't train bomber pilots to dogfight.

I don't see anything illogical in this decision, especially when we have F-15Cs and F-22s with no other mission than to intercept enemy fighters out there. If you're going to have the F-16s do it all (which of course they can't, as they can't go as fast, far, or high as those two) they're going to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.

Did anyone in WWII say "what do we have these B-17s and P-47s and P-38s for? We can just put bombs on the P-51s and let them do it all"? Of course not, that would be stupid. Yet the idea that F-16s should concentrate on doing the things that they're better suited to doing (because F-15s and F-22s aren't suited to them) is wrong?

Also, there aren't that many out there. There aren't 1000 Su-27s waiting for us anywhere. Our few hundred F-15Cs and F-22s outnumber everyone else's by far. We don't need 1000 F-16s to help.



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#4047542 - 12/08/14 04:35 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  

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I'm not an expert or even a dedicated enthusiast (haven't even touched an air combat sim for years and can't even remember the last one I played). However, IIRC during the Su-27's development, it was supposed to be: F-15 vs Su-27 for air superiority and F-16 vs Mig-29 for multi-role fighters. The F-15 and Su-27 were supposed to clear the skies for the multi-role fighters. So, I'm leaning with Jedi's post that the dogfighting aspect is covered by the fighters built to actually cover that area.

There's something weird about the article also, it criticised the training for the F-15E pilots. IIRC these were F-15s specifically modified to do bombing runs right?

Last edited by oselisan; 12/08/14 04:37 PM.
#4047547 - 12/08/14 04:42 PM Re: F-16s Can't Dogfight??! [Re: PFunk]  
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Right, I think the basic idea was to build a version of the F15 to fill the hole when the F111 was retired.


Phil

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