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#4044098 - 12/01/14 09:18 PM Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10  
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Quote:
We believe that F-15s, F-16s, and B-1s cannot replicate the CAS capabilities of the A-10, and we know from combat experience that the elimination of the A-10 before a viable replacement achieves full operational capability will cost American lives,


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Quote:
When under enemy fire and about to be overrun, JTACs look over their shoulders and pray an A-10 is there knowing that nothing reassures and protects friendly forces and scatters and destroys enemy forces like an A-10, the letter said.



The A-10 has seen a lot more action of late, we know one of our own is over there right now w/his unit. Our military needs to get their heads out of their butts and listen to these people on the ground who rely on it and the ones who are sending them in. Not the nitwits sitting at a desk half way around the globe...


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#4044104 - 12/01/14 09:30 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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It's basically an uber-helicopter with a small army's worth of firepower. No current dedicated fighter or bomber can fill the niche the A-10 covers.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#4044119 - 12/01/14 09:58 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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That's obviously a very strong endorsement, but this part of the article really bugged me:

Look back at the unfortunate but completely preventable fratricide incident in June that killed five U.S. soldiers and one Afghan soldier, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said at a press briefing in November, according to the Washington Times. If that had been an A-10 providing close air support that day, we might have avoided that tragic friendly fire incident.

How come the A-10 didn't prevent these?:

During the Battle of Khafji, 11 American Marines were killed in two major incidents when their light armored vehicles (LAV's) were hit by missiles fired by a USAF A-10.

An American A-10 during Operation Desert Storm attacked British Warrior MICVs, resulting in nine British dead and numerous casualties.

Operation Medusa (2006): 1 Two U.S. A-10 Thunderbolts accidentally strafed NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham.

In the Battle of Nasiriyah, an American force of Amphibious Assault Vehicles (AAVs) and infantry under intense enemy fire were misidentified as an Iraqi armored column by two U.S. Air Force A-10s who carried out bombing and strafing runs on them. One U.S. Marine was killed and 17 were wounded as a result.

190th Fighter Squadron/Blues and Royals friendly fire incident 28 March 2003. A pair of American A-10s from the 190th attacked four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals, killing L/CoH. Matty Hull and injuring five others.

The B-1 incident was caused by a misunderstanding of how IR strobes are picked up by the Sniper pod, the same pod used by A-10s, and not some lack of visibility. I hate it when some politician protecting his turf spreads misinformation and it starts being regarded as fact.



Ken Cartwright

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#4044121 - 12/01/14 09:59 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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He's a politician, it's his job to spread misinformation wink


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#4044129 - 12/01/14 10:09 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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Well basically the argument against the A-10 that it won't be in action for the coming war against China- so if you had one plane to invest in, it would be better to go with aircraft that would actually be in play, since the A-10 would have nowhere to operate from in sea based campaigns and potential island grabs, and it would have a difficult time against sophisticated air defenses and enemy air patrols. Then factor on top of that politics- who stands to benefit and who stands to lose when certain aircraft are selected to be built in their home district. Who gets the jobs, who gets the economic boost. Politics is who gets what, when, and how.

#4044130 - 12/01/14 10:09 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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It knotted my stomach reading those friendly fire incidents.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4044133 - 12/01/14 10:16 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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A-10's during Desert Storm did not have a dedicated optical sensor. They used the video feed from the seekers of the Maverick missiles they were carrying. Not the optimum solution by a wide margin. Of course, the Air Force was trying to retire them before that so no money was spent to upgrade them before that war.

#4044136 - 12/01/14 10:21 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Snake_Pliskinn]  
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Originally Posted By: Snake_Pliskinn
A-10's during Desert Storm did not have a dedicated optical sensor. They used the video feed from the seekers of the Maverick missiles they were carrying. Not the optimum solution by a wide margin. Of course, the Air Force was trying to retire them before that so no money was spent to upgrade them before that war.

But that goes against what most people are saying. Remember, the targeting pod used on the A-10s today is exactly the same as the one used on the B-1 that caused the latest incident. If you're going to rely on the same targeting pods, what's the advantage of using an A-10 to find and identify a target?


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#4044143 - 12/01/14 10:40 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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You mean other than doing it at maybe 200KIAS and at low altitude rather than at a much higher speed and altitude? And the fact that you have a gun that you can use instead of 500-pounders - or saying "sorry, you're too close. Good luck!" - when the enemy is within hand-grenade range?

The fact is, the JTACs who call in CAS know more about this than anyone else. They don't like the A10 because it has a cool shark mouth painted on it, they like the A10 because it does the job better than any other aircraft in our inventory. Are the JTACs and A10 pilots perfect? Hell no, everyone makes mistakes, and sometimes they cost innocent lives. But I'm willing to bet that if you compare the percentage of friendly-fire incidents to successful CAS sorties flown, the A10's numbers are much better than any other aircraft.


Phil

“The biggest problem people have is they don’t think they’re supposed to have problems.” - Hayes Barnard
#4044149 - 12/01/14 10:50 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: NH2112]  
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Originally Posted By: NH2112
You mean other than doing it at maybe 200KIAS and at low altitude rather than at a much higher speed and altitude? And the fact that you have a gun that you can use instead of 500-pounders - or saying "sorry, you're too close. Good luck!" - when the enemy is within hand-grenade range?

My point was directed at the idea that the A-10s not having the sniper pods caused the earlier fratricide incidents - if the pod is so important to avoid that, why do you need an A-10, since other types can carry it? Flying high can actually give you slower movement over an area, and the pod can zoom in enough to compensate for the additional distance. I doubt an A-10 pilot flying at low altitude and at 200KIAS is going to be using his targeting pod much - too zoomed in and things moving too fast to try to get it on target.

Originally Posted By: NH2112
The fact is, the JTACs who call in CAS know more about this than anyone else. They don't like the A10 because it has a cool shark mouth painted on it, they like the A10 because it does the job better than any other aircraft in our inventory. Are the JTACs and A10 pilots perfect? Hell no, everyone makes mistakes, and sometimes they cost innocent lives. But I'm willing to bet that if you compare the percentage of friendly-fire incidents to successful CAS sorties flown, the A10's numbers are much better than any other aircraft.

And this, again, was largely my point - to me, the JTACs endorsement is far more meaningful than McCain spouting off about how A-10s would have avoided a blue-on-blue incident. I wasn't saying the A-10s weren't good, I was just saying that the arguments that they have some magical ability to avoid fratricide incidents seems pretty unsupported.


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#4044167 - 12/01/14 11:29 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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And a point in favor of the B-1 in this regard, one of the Navs in the back is dedicated to that pod, and communicating with the JTAC or whomever is on the ground. Unlike in the A-10 where the pilot is doing everything.

High training and skill levels in A-10s make them very good at what they do, but there is a huge advantage to having a dedicated crewmember for one aspect of the fight, easing the workload of the pilot.

#4044177 - 12/01/14 11:56 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted By: Arthonon
Originally Posted By: NH2112
You mean other than doing it at maybe 200KIAS and at low altitude rather than at a much higher speed and altitude? And the fact that you have a gun that you can use instead of 500-pounders - or saying "sorry, you're too close. Good luck!" - when the enemy is within hand-grenade range?

My point was directed at the idea that the A-10s not having the sniper pods caused the earlier fratricide incidents - if the pod is so important to avoid that, why do you need an A-10, since other types can carry it? Flying high can actually give you slower movement over an area, and the pod can zoom in enough to compensate for the additional distance. I doubt an A-10 pilot flying at low altitude and at 200KIAS is going to be using his targeting pod much - too zoomed in and things moving too fast to try to get it on target.

Originally Posted By: NH2112
The fact is, the JTACs who call in CAS know more about this than anyone else. They don't like the A10 because it has a cool shark mouth painted on it, they like the A10 because it does the job better than any other aircraft in our inventory. Are the JTACs and A10 pilots perfect? Hell no, everyone makes mistakes, and sometimes they cost innocent lives. But I'm willing to bet that if you compare the percentage of friendly-fire incidents to successful CAS sorties flown, the A10's numbers are much better than any other aircraft.

And this, again, was largely my point - to me, the JTACs endorsement is far more meaningful than McCain spouting off about how A-10s would have avoided a blue-on-blue incident. I wasn't saying the A-10s weren't good, I was just saying that the arguments that they have some magical ability to avoid fratricide incidents seems pretty unsupported.


I guess I was just firing back at the critics through your post. One of the guys on an email list I'm on is a 20-year retired JTAC and he tells me I'm preaching to the choir all the time LOL.


Phil

“The biggest problem people have is they don’t think they’re supposed to have problems.” - Hayes Barnard
#4044186 - 12/02/14 12:09 AM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: KlarSnow]  
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Originally Posted By: KlarSnow
And a point in favor of the B-1 in this regard, one of the Navs in the back is dedicated to that pod, and communicating with the JTAC or whomever is on the ground. Unlike in the A-10 where the pilot is doing everything.

High training and skill levels in A-10s make them very good at what they do, but there is a huge advantage to having a dedicated crewmember for one aspect of the fight, easing the workload of the pilot.


Absolutely, I wonder if it would have been possible to convert them to two-seaters during the "C" modernization? Whether it could be done on the original airframe, or if a new, longer nose section would have to be built and installed, I have no idea. Or even if that would be possible.


Phil

“The biggest problem people have is they don’t think they’re supposed to have problems.” - Hayes Barnard
#4044193 - 12/02/14 12:21 AM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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All I know is that if my abilities in DCS World is any indicator, the A-10 is a deathtrap.


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#4044202 - 12/02/14 12:36 AM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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It's all about the communications that you guys are talking about.

The capability of the A-10 is not in question.

WC

#4044269 - 12/02/14 04:59 AM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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There are plenty of places they can save money to keep the weapon, like quit building massive Green projects.


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#4044361 - 12/02/14 01:34 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: PFunk]  
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Originally Posted By: PFunk
All I know is that if my abilities in DCS World is any indicator, the A-10 is a deathtrap.


are you sure it's just not your abilities... wink You don't see many of downed A-10's.

#4044386 - 12/02/14 02:41 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: PFunk]  
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Originally Posted By: PFunk
All I know is that if my abilities in DCS World is any indicator, the A-10 is a deathtrap.


Considering how about 98% of the missions I've ever flown in that sim were suicidal for an A-10 I'd say it's pretty hardy wink


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#4044400 - 12/02/14 03:03 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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Cost specifics

Per flight hour:

A-10 flight per hour = $17,700
F-16C per hour = $22,500
F-35 per hour = $32,000
AC 130 U per/hr = $46,000
B1B per/hr = $58,000

Cost per aircraft:

A-10 $ 9 million
F16C $ 34 million
F-35 $154 million
AC 130 U $ 81 million
B1B $200 million

Can't get any cheaper too (excluding drones)


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4044414 - 12/02/14 03:25 PM Re: Can't get any better support than the JTAC people for the A-10 [Re: Top Gun]  
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The problem is the last 10 years have been wearing out the A-10s at a very accelerated rate. It won't be long before they become more expensive to operate with less reliability than "inferior" platforms.

And you can't build new ones, that would be a waste of money to spend $60 million each to build new A-10Cs on a recreated production line that itself would cost a couple stealth bombers to rebuild.
Cost per aircraft is a spurious statistic when they haven't been built in over 25 years. Unless it's in production now, cost should be judged on what it would cost to replace it today. Any A-10 lost today is not replaced by another A-10. You would be buying an F-35 since the US doesn't buy F-16s, only built for export.
Besides, the F-16 isn't $34m, hasn't been for years. They're in the $60s now. Last time a B-1B was built Reagan was still in office. They stopped building its replacement around 20 years ago now!

One B-1B sortie can take out more targets than one F-35 or F-16 sortie, so the costs per flight hour are also misleading. There's also the fact that they tend to base them much farther away from the combat area than the shorter-ranged fighters which forces them to spend more hours per sortie.
The number should be cost per target destroyed--how efficiently they perform their missions. If a new plane comes out that costs $100,000/hr to fly, but can destroy 1000 targets in that hour, I think people would find that a good level of efficiency.

There's no arguing the A-10 was a great plane and still is. The point is for how much longer? The A-1 pilots loved their planes in Vietnam, would they still have been good in Desert Storm? The A-10 was great in Desert Storm, how good will it be when we fight in Outer Slobovia in the late 2020s?




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