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#4043412 - 11/30/14 03:07 AM Observer/Gunner question  
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busdriver Offline
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As a test during my 3rd BrisFit sortie, I simply flew a "bogey gathering" turn to see if my Observer would shoot when given a PERFECT opportunity. He never fired a shot...we died. You can imagine my chagrin because Jerry gunners have no reluctance to shoot at me.

Any of you two-seater aces willing to share your secret? Will my gunner only shoot if I'm straight and level? Is there a command to have my Observer/Gunner engage an enemy that is arcing us then stabilizes "in the saddle" gunning our brains out? Or perhaps there is a secret handshake, decoder ring, or special invocation of the Knights That Say Nee required. Because me imploring, "Shoot that b*st*rd, you bloody wanker!" Doesn't work...so kids don't try that at home.

#4043433 - 11/30/14 04:52 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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I hope one day that the AI for two seaters gets a big update to make two seater campaigns amazing! Would love it if you as pilot were tasked of flying the plane to allow better shooting angles for the gunner and also that the gunners skill raises and lowers when under high G.

#4043459 - 11/30/14 08:59 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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Winding Man Offline
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Originally Posted By: busdriver
As a test during my 3rd BrisFit sortie, I simply flew a "bogey gathering" turn to see if my Observer would shoot when given a PERFECT opportunity. He never fired a shot...we died. You can imagine my chagrin because Jerry gunners have no reluctance to shoot at me.

Any of you two-seater aces willing to share your secret? Will my gunner only shoot if I'm straight and level? Is there a command to have my Observer/Gunner engage an enemy that is arcing us then stabilizes "in the saddle" gunning our brains out? Or perhaps there is a secret handshake, decoder ring, or special invocation of the Knights That Say Nee required. Because me imploring, "Shoot that b*st*rd, you bloody wanker!" Doesn't work...so kids don't try that at home.



Yes if your craft is to steeply banked etc he wont fire....

I will look and see if its too sensitive and adjust for 2.02 if possible - no promises.

HTH

WM


OBD Software
#4043466 - 11/30/14 09:52 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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I always have Bristol career going and he does indeed shoot.
Since my eyes are usually forward and scanning I don't know if there is a problem however since I presume the same AI routines that control your observer are the same as the enemy two-seater gunners everything seems ok.

#4043470 - 11/30/14 10:05 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Winding Man Offline
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Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand
I always have Bristol career going and he does indeed shoot.
Since my eyes are usually forward and scanning I don't know if there is a problem however since I presume the same AI routines that control your observer are the same as the enemy two-seater gunners everything seems ok.


Indeed they do shoot fine - the issue is when you are evading or even maneuvering to attack, there are roll/pitch rate and roll/pitch angle limits that simulate it being difficult for the gunner to aim as you fling your craft over the sky and its at steep angles or rapid rates of change - as it would be in real life.
The AI pilots are trained to keep their craft as steady as possible to ensure maximum rear gunner efficiency.
Players should bear this in mind - imagine trying to shoot a target as the craft is flung all over the sky by your pilot. There is also a steadying time involved.

I will look and see if they are reasonable and adjust if deemed necessary but again not promising when or even if I will change them - I will look at them though.
Remember changing these limits will make your gunner fire under difficult circumstances (and make you feel safer) but will he hit anything? probably not - as in real life.

Note again that the all craft, AI and player, are subject to these limitations - the AI fly EXACTLY the same craft with exactly the same limitations as the Player.


HTH

WM


OBD Software
#4043475 - 11/30/14 10:21 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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Great sim OBD.

One of my pet peeves are sims that have to have a "cheating AI" to make up for bad programming.

#4043562 - 11/30/14 05:01 PM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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WM thank you for your superb efforts. I apologize for my use of AF fighter pilot slang. My "bogey gathering" turn was simply a steady rate right hand turn at 10-20 degrees of bank maintaining altitude and airspeed...nothing evasive, no changing G loads. That's simply a description of what happens if one blindly turns...the unseen bogey will eventually show up on the inside of your turn.

On the particular sortie, the Observer/Gunner had rotated the guns to the forward hemisphere as our flight merged with the enemy. My reaction was..."Sweet...he wants to kill something." So I simply leveled off and went into a gentle turn. I was intentionally providing a stable platform for my gunner. I watched over my shoulder as an Albatros arced inside my turn circle, the bandit opened fire but the rounds were behind us, the bandit continued to close shooting intermittently before killing us. I had the HUD displayed and my Gunner never fired a shot. We completed at least 360 degrees of turn from the time the bandit appeared a couple hundred yards behind us.

In the workshop I had set rear gunner to most accurate (or whatever it's called).

Afterwards I flew three QC sorties using the BrisFit versus various airplanes. In my small sample, my Gunner rarely fired when I provided him a stable platform...until I turned on the autopilot with a bandit in our rear hemisphere and then there was a high rate of fire whilst the autopilot was throwing the airplane all over the sky.

Again my remarks should not be taken as coming from a petulant teenager, simply a simmer looking for some insight (like a key command I may have overlooked, or an experience factor based on sortie count). I appreciate this may be too hard to do, a limitation of the code. No worries.

HTH

#4043612 - 11/30/14 07:50 PM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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I'll echo that, busdriver. I started a 1915 German career as a visefeldwebel to get into the EI. Of course, Boelcke and Immelmann are flying the Fokkers and I'm stuck in an Aviatik. No problem, I'll just drop a few BE2's and they'll give me a single seater, right? But I'm having the same problem. I get peppered by their gunners while my guy acts like he has to pay for the ammo himself. Or maybe he's a spy. Either way, it's pretty much putting me off the whole idea. Nice to see I'm not the only one.


SALUTE TO ALL!
#4043694 - 12/01/14 12:25 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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I had an Aviatik C campaign going and scored two Moranes by flying below them. Now that I've upgraded to WOFF V2 that pilot is now flying an Aviatik BI. No machine gun for the observer now.

Is he packing a pistol?

#4043702 - 12/01/14 12:48 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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Originally Posted By: busdriver

Afterwards I flew three QC sorties using the BrisFit versus various airplanes. In my small sample, my Gunner rarely fired when I provided him a stable platform...until I turned on the autopilot with a bandit in our rear hemisphere and then there was a high rate of fire whilst the autopilot was throwing the airplane all over the sky.
HTH


Hmmm. Well if that turns out to aucurate across the board then the presumption must be that somehow a human pilot is interfering with the AI gunner routines. Or is operating under a different set of rules when paired with a human.

#4043711 - 12/01/14 01:15 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand
Hmmm. Well if that turns out to aucurate across the board then the presumption must be that somehow a human pilot is interfering with the AI gunner routines. Or is operating under a different set of rules when paired with a human.

Again it was a small sample. I'm not particularly interested in any of the two-seaters except for the BrisFit, so I'll just have to adjust my tactics with it (don't become a cooperative target, and assume the gunner is deadweight so to speak). It is a pretty awesome balloon buster.

#4043717 - 12/01/14 01:33 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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I would like to see stuff like gunner AI firing from longer distances,more firing when under G etc.Just put the Gunner to less accurate to compensate and IMO this would feel better.Maybe a patch where some changes are made to the gunner AI and let us test it out before final patch is released?

#4043823 - 12/01/14 09:42 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: MudWasp]  
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Winding Man Offline
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Originally Posted By: MudWasp
I had an Aviatik C campaign going and scored two Moranes by flying below them. Now that I've upgraded to WOFF V2 that pilot is now flying an Aviatik BI. No machine gun for the observer now.

Is he packing a pistol?


No he is simply observing - it was tough in the beginning!


WM


OBD Software
#4043825 - 12/01/14 09:44 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Winding Man Offline
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Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand
Originally Posted By: busdriver

Afterwards I flew three QC sorties using the BrisFit versus various airplanes. In my small sample, my Gunner rarely fired when I provided him a stable platform...until I turned on the autopilot with a bandit in our rear hemisphere and then there was a high rate of fire whilst the autopilot was throwing the airplane all over the sky.
HTH


Hmmm. Well if that turns out to aucurate across the board then the presumption must be that somehow a human pilot is interfering with the AI gunner routines. Or is operating under a different set of rules when paired with a human.


Or there might be something wrong.

We will look.

Wm


OBD Software
#4043902 - 12/01/14 02:45 PM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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Thanks for checking it out sir.
I have become quite fond of the Bristol.

#4043981 - 12/01/14 05:02 PM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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One other thing often your gunner will be taken out of action. So he will not fire. You can check it by sticking on autopilot and jumping to gunner position and press fire. If it doesn't fire the gun was damaged or observer is inactive.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4044000 - 12/01/14 05:30 PM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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Ah yes. Forgot about that as a possibility if I think I am having an issue.
Not that I have noticed one so far.

#4044001 - 12/01/14 05:30 PM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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Good tip, Pol, hadn't thought about that. Next time I'll try it.

Thanx.


SALUTE TO ALL!
#4044111 - 12/01/14 09:47 PM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: Winding Man]  
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Originally Posted By: Winding Man
Originally Posted By: MudWasp
I had an Aviatik C campaign going and scored two Moranes by flying below them. Now that I've upgraded to WOFF V2 that pilot is now flying an Aviatik BI. No machine gun for the observer now.

Is he packing a pistol?


No he is simply observing - it was tough in the beginning!


WM


Thanks for the info!
Yes, it is tuff that early in the war. In a strong head wind, sometimes I'm not sure if the Aviatik BI is moving forward. For some strange reason, I really like that plane.

#4044699 - 12/03/14 02:01 AM Re: Observer/Gunner question [Re: busdriver]  
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Update:
Further (QC) testing in the Aviatik initially provided the same results. Turned on labels to verify range to target and took screenshots. At <200 yards the gunner tracked, but would not fire at, the enemy aircraft. Took a succession of screenshots to verify I was flying straight and level, no jinking. Switched seats as Pol suggested and scored several hits myself, confirming the gunner was still alive. But when I returned to the pilot's seat, nada...as in he fired nada dad-gummed shot.

While resizing the screenies so as not to overwhelm the board I noticed something...the EA were within the arc of the propeller. So I fired up the game again to remove that variable. This time, with the EA securely outside the propeller disc my man lost his inhibition and fired like his life depended on it. It seems he's coded no to shoot into his own prop and I was staying too nose-on the targets. Kudos to the team. Haven't tried to replicate the results in a campaign mission but I expect them to be the same.

While I'm here though, one other question arose from my testing. Can the Aviatik's port gun not be slid significantly into the forward quarter of the aircraft? I ran a final flight against two BE2's. The first I engaged to starboard and the gunner fired from roughly just outside the prop disc all the way back to the wing, or nearly. When I engaged the second EA to the port side I had to bring the target back to maybe 9:30 before he'd open up. Both mounting rails go well forward of the gunner's seat and it seems rather silly to be able to cover only the back left and front right (sitting in the gunner's seat, the starboard side gun stops at about the wing although I did not test the starboard gun's rearward firing arc against a target). I'm still on 1.26, so if this has been corrected in 2.0 I apologize.


SALUTE TO ALL!
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