Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
#4031338 - 11/03/14 09:45 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: bisher]  
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,179
bisher Offline
I'll be your Huckleberry
bisher  Offline
I'll be your Huckleberry
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,179
Manitoba, Canada
Yes we hear that things will improve with user content, but that seems somewhat contradictory to the locked down feeling of this game

#4031341 - 11/03/14 09:53 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Plainsman]  
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 902
2005AD Offline
Member
2005AD  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 902
Using the original IL2 as a yardstick to judge what is acceptable in a sim released 14 years later is a bit of a non-sequitur. Just because the original IL2 had a poor SP experience does not excuse BoS having an equally poor SP experience.

1. IL2 had an easy to use mission editor upon release.
2. IL2 was well received as a true next gen sim by the majority of the sim community.
3. IL2 had co-op MP style missions and servers right from the off.
4. Historical squadrons and markings.
5. Ability to add user made historical skins on your aircraft.
6. IL2 actually generated a level of excitement rarely seen then, or since in the sim community.
7. The above six points were a catalyst to a flood of lovingly created content such as skins, missions, campaigns and online wars.
8. The rest is history.

BoS unfortunately has none of these elements that allowed IL2 to flourish.

So anyone expecting a glut of community made content to "save the day" are deluding themselves. Do not expect the same community TLC that turned IL2 into the brand name 777 are attempting to capitalise upon.

BoS simply needed a revised and updated RoF campaign/career system. The devs needed to simply improve on what was already a well respected (though not perfect) career mode.

Last edited by 2005AD; 11/03/14 10:52 PM.
#4031348 - 11/03/14 10:02 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Plainsman]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,147
Gambit21 Offline
Member
Gambit21  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,147
Pacific Northwest
I think those of us that make that comment are simply using it as a pointer to a ray of hope - more or less.

#4031352 - 11/03/14 10:08 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: 2005AD]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 683
dburne Offline
Member
dburne  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 683
Originally Posted By: 2005AD

BoS simply needed a revised and updated RoF campaign/career system. The devs needed to simply improve on what was already a well respected (though not perfect) career mode.


No kidding, if they had only done that I would still be playing BOS.


Don

EVGA X-79 Dark MB|I-7 4820K@4.50 GHz|EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3|16GB Corsair Dominator PC2133 Ram|Oculus Rift CV1|Virpil T-50 stick, Warthog throttle|MFG Crosswind Pedals
#4031357 - 11/03/14 10:17 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Plainsman]  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,545
Simbo_Sim123 Offline
Member
Simbo_Sim123  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,545
Tonyrefail South Wales
Just uninstalled the sim - single player for me only and it sucks.Perhaps if the unlocks were free and something like Patrick A Wilson`s ROF campaign for BOS was available then I would be lured back.
But until then......................

Paul


Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi,
Gwlad beirdd a chantorion, enwogion o fri;
Ei gwrol ryfelwyr, gwladgarwyr tra m�d,
Dros ryddid collasant eu gwaed.
Gwlad, gwlad, pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad.
Tra m�r yn fur i'r bur hoff bau,
O bydded i'r hen iaith barhau.
#4031358 - 11/03/14 10:20 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Gambit21]  
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 902
2005AD Offline
Member
2005AD  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 902
Hope needs to be based on a foundation of facts, no matter how obscure. For your hopes to be taken as something other than forlorn there needs to be evidence of a community getting behind BoS and there just isn't any.

IL2 was seriously lacking in content on release, but even before release people had made missions for the demo version and within days there was a glut of content from skins, to missions and even short campaigns. Without that community excitement and the ability for us to create content, IL2 would be a footnote in the history of sims because as you say, it had almost no content on release.

The pigheadedness of the devs/publishers has BoS locked down tighter than a gnats chuff. Go to any sim forum and find the user made content for BoS, there isn't any and even if we wanted to make it we can't. The simm community has on many occasions turned a pigs ear into a silk purse. For them to be able to do that they need tools and the ability to make content. BoS gives them zero ability to do this and that is the meat and potatoes right there.

Had the devs of BoS seen fit to release a mission editor we may already be seeing much better content for both MP and SP. They didn't, so we don't. There is no point saying, "they will release it in x months" because in x months it will most likely not matter.

There is nowhere near the level of community excitement and acceptance generated by BoS that the original IL2 created. So far it has been seen as a damp squib by the majority of the sim community. That isn't the sim community's fault, that is purely down to the devs and publishers and the mistakes they made.

Simples.

NB. I didn't wish for BoS to be a failure and I still don't. I would not have invested $95 in it if that were the case. Unfortunately I, nor obviously anyone else in the community can do anything about it without a full mission editor/creator. There is just an almost total lack of excitement being generated for this sim. Hope is all we have right now and that is not enough for the majority.

Last edited by 2005AD; 11/03/14 10:57 PM.
#4031428 - 11/04/14 02:15 AM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: lokitexas]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,814
Plainsman Offline
Senior Member
Plainsman  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,814
Vikings Season Ticket Holder
Originally Posted By: lokitexas
Originally Posted By: ami7b5

Current IL*2/HSFX 7 single player is way better than that of BoS, which is a shame.
But it seems we are not the BoS' target audience. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense.


HSFX + DCG is the most fun I have had in a long time. Currently doing a Gilbert islands Pacific USN campaign, as well as a Kiev campaign. Seeing results after a mission is great fun (and frustrating too), especially when you lose a ship, or your supply planes get shot down.

If BoS could do 1/2 of that I would definitely play it more. Will it ever happen? Dont know.

Someone mentioned the "lockdown system" of BoS. It is very restrictive and this concerns me. If it was more open to modders, I would be much more inclined to patiently wait. Dont you guys recall what Jason said about the FMB? It was not even going to be released to the public. That means it was not even in the plans....thats nuts.


I've never heard of HSFX or DCG? Are they for IL2 1946? Where do I get them?


Acer: XB 280HK 28" 3840 X 2160, 1ms, w/Nvidia GSync
Corsair: White Graphite 760T Full Tower
Corsair: 16GB Vengeance LPX 2800MHz RAM
Corsair: SP2500 2.1 Gaming Speaker System
INTEL: Six-Core, i7 5820K CPU @4.2Hz
ASUS RTX OC 2080
Logitech 920 Wheel and Pedal System with Wheel Stand Pro
Saitek Pro Flight Control System with Wheel Stand Pro
Saitek X55 HOTAS
XBOX One S
Track IR5

#4031433 - 11/04/14 02:43 AM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Plainsman]  
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,955
Sokol1 Offline
Senior Member
Sokol1  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,955
Internet
From SP only perspective is important notice that the "Unlock Campaign" is in "Beta", several issues (CTD, Laucher stop work, ESC dont work, XP not registered smile ..) related:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/89-technical-issues-and-bug-reports-discussion/

Last edited by Sokol1; 11/04/14 02:44 AM.
#4031467 - 11/04/14 08:32 AM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Sokol1]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,108
Mysticpuma2003 Offline
Member
Mysticpuma2003  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,108
Birmingham, UK
Originally Posted By: Sokol1
From SP only perspective is important notice that the "Unlock Campaign" is in "Beta", several issues (CTD, Laucher stop work, ESC dont work, XP not registered smile ..) related:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/89-technical-issues-and-bug-reports-discussion/


Which makes you wonder why, when many of these were pointed out in Early Access, that they weren't fixes before release? If they were found after the software was released in closed development it's irritating but understandable. What's the point in Early Access, finding and reporting bugs and then releasing it with bugs still intact? It's not like they can say they didn't know? Does this mean they just didn't care and released buggy software on purpose?


[img]http://i41.tinypic.com/2yjr679.png[/img]
#4031473 - 11/04/14 09:09 AM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Mysticpuma2003]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,743
HeinKill Offline
Senior Member
HeinKill  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,743
Cloud based
Originally Posted By: Mysticpuma2003
Originally Posted By: Sokol1
From SP only perspective is important notice that the "Unlock Campaign" is in "Beta", several issues (CTD, Laucher stop work, ESC dont work, XP not registered smile ..) related:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/89-technical-issues-and-bug-reports-discussion/


Which makes you wonder why, when many of these were pointed out in Early Access, that they weren't fixes before release? If they were found after the software was released in closed development it's irritating but understandable. What's the point in Early Access, finding and reporting bugs and then releasing it with bugs still intact? It's not like they can say they didn't know? Does this mean they just didn't care and released buggy software on purpose?



I get game freeze after about 5 missions (which has been enough for me to stop playing until a future patch solves that), but other than that the campaign seems to mostly work. Can't be compared to what CoD was like on release for example, that was an absolute horror.

And we need to keep perspective. I paid $50 for a DCS P-51D that came with no campaign at all, just a few training missions or 'challenges' joined together. There is still no campaign as far as I know (may be wrong?), for the DCS WWII warbirds the P-51D and FW 190D.

I am actually pathetically grateful there was any kind of SP game included in BoS, even though there are many elements of it that annoy me!

What's there can eventually be fixed/modded into something better, one day.

H


[Linked Image]
#4031479 - 11/04/14 09:48 AM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: dburne]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 763
WhoCares Offline
Member
WhoCares  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 763
Originally Posted By: DBurnette
Originally Posted By: 2005AD

BoS simply needed a revised and updated RoF campaign/career system. The devs needed to simply improve on what was already a well respected (though not perfect) career mode.


No kidding, if they had only done that I would still be playing BOS.

Copied from an even bigger post that I prepared but never posted in one piece...

People asking for a dynamic campaign (EF2000 like) should understand that they ask about merging two games, a flight sim and a strategy game. Yes, there were games that have done it before, but that does not mean that it is quick and easy to implement, or a commercially sensible investment in todays flight sim market.

Taking the RoF Beta Career as another example, there are various aspects that simply do not work well in BoS due to the short time frame of just a few month. It is not very realistic to promote through five ranks in three month, or to collect EK2 to Knights Cross with oak leafs, swords and diamonds. Neither is there a lot of evolution in plane technology. So a realistic campaign would play not much different than what we have now, if you just stick to the same plane and airfield. Okay, the game would keep track of the tally for your current v-life, and also for wingmen that would eventually change over time.
There were hints that they might open the door for a RoF PWCG style solution in the future, so there is some hope if that's what you are looking for.

Now if we talk about campaigns in the RoF sense, that would be the totally linear forced-to-complete-every-mission more or less story-telling style like "Du doch nicht!" or "St. Mihiel", something like that should always be possible to do (once the FMB is available also community-made). While nice as one-time experience, "replayability" is rather limited.

#4031506 - 11/04/14 12:50 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: WhoCares]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 676
nibbio Offline
Member
nibbio  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 676
Italy
Originally Posted By: WhoCares


People asking for a dynamic campaign (EF2000 like) should understand that they ask about merging two games, a flight sim and a strategy game. Yes, there were games that have done it before, but that does not mean that it is quick and easy to implement, or a commercially sensible investment in todays flight sim market.



Today's flight sim market is not much different from yesterday's (the glorious 90s of EF2000 and Falcon4) except for a marginally wider audience, which would amply justify the rather modest investment of merging a strategy game into a flight sim environment.

However, since the 1990s PC gaming has turned from a cottage industry catering to a small minority of intelligent and discriminating customers into a giant of the entertainment sector, with revenues much larger than movie production, catering to masses of consumers.

The reason why no studios are currently developing flight sims with dynamic campaigns is likely because they dream of making it big and turning out the Call of Duty of flight sims, which will sell millions of copies rather than a few tens of thousands. No studio is satisfied with the idea of cultivating a niche sim market of intelligent gamers, they prefer to chase delusional grand dreams of capturing masses of simpletons... and good luck to them, they are gonna need it smile


#4031517 - 11/04/14 01:21 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: nibbio]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 601
SkullBiscuit Offline
Member
SkullBiscuit  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 601
USA
Originally Posted By: nibbio

The reason why no studios are currently developing flight sims with dynamic campaigns is likely because they dream of making it big and turning out the Call of Duty of flight sims, which will sell millions of copies rather than a few tens of thousands. No studio is satisfied with the idea of cultivating a niche sim market of intelligent gamers, they prefer to chase delusional grand dreams of capturing masses of simpletons... and good luck to them, they are gonna need it smile



And this is the ugly truth staring everyone right in the eye. Video games even more than movies are a "hit driven industry"....go ahead and repeat that to yourself again and again...and go out and research just what it means (economics).

In brief it means that nearly every company that enters and competes in this space realizes that there is a dynamic in place akin to "winner take all". The returns on investment are unbelievable to those at the very top (top five games in any given year) -- the hits -- while after that the returns drop off dramatically.

It is the old TV "competition for eyeballs" now with keyboard, mouse, and joystick.

The trend is increasingly clear --- things are bad now (compared to 10 years ago) and likely to get worse. Games like War Thunder with its very lucrative "pay to win" model drive out competition and encourage developers to ape it --- this is no doubt why we have this stupid XP/grind model thrown into BoS.

The dynamics of production (cost of game development) have to come down or this "dumbing down" of the genre will likely continue....made worse by decisions like 777/1C have; in not opening up their platform to the community at release and leveraging the enthusiasm of "free" content producers. Dumb...just plain dumb....unless they have plans to sell you the skins and missions that you used to be able to get for free provided you bought the platform.

You can see the trends in place over the past 4 years and they are not good.


AMD 8 core at 4.7Ghz
16GB Ram
GTX 970 4GB
Sim on SSD
Win 7 64bit
#4031524 - 11/04/14 01:28 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: SkullBiscuit]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,562
Airdrop01 Offline
Chief Pheasant Controller
Airdrop01  Offline
Chief Pheasant Controller
Hotshot

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,562
Kansas, USA
I
Originally Posted By: SkullBiscuit
Originally Posted By: nibbio

The reason why no studios are currently developing flight sims with dynamic campaigns is likely because they dream of making it big and turning out the Call of Duty of flight sims, which will sell millions of copies rather than a few tens of thousands. No studio is satisfied with the idea of cultivating a niche sim market of intelligent gamers, they prefer to chase delusional grand dreams of capturing masses of simpletons... and good luck to them, they are gonna need it smile



And this is the ugly truth staring everyone right in the eye. Video games even more than movies are a "hit driven industry"....go ahead and repeat that to yourself again and again...and go out and research just what it means (economics).

In brief it means that nearly every company that enters and competes in this space realizes that there is a dynamic in place akin to "winner take all". The returns on investment are unbelievable to those at the very top (top five games in any given year) -- the hits -- while after that the returns drop off dramatically.

It is the old TV "competition for eyeballs" now with keyboard, mouse, and joystick.

The trend is increasingly clear --- things are bad now (compared to 10 years ago) and likely to get worse. Games like War Thunder with its very lucrative "pay to win" model drive out competition and encourage developers to ape it --- this is no doubt why we have this stupid XP/grind model thrown into BoS.

The dynamics of production (cost of game development) have to come down or this "dumbing down" of the genre will likely continue....made worse by decisions like 777/1C have; in not opening up their platform to the community at release and leveraging the enthusiasm of "free" content producers. Dumb...just plain dumb....unless they have plans to sell you the skins and missions that you used to be able to get for free provided you bought the platform.

You can see the trends in place over the past 4 years and they are not good.


I totally agree with this too. Imjust watched a movie narrated by Sean Astin....I forget the name...about video games and the increasing of crappy games at various periods of time. The market will work...I hope...and eventually we will have a great SP experience again.

I


"For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Matthew 5:11

Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and merciful. James 5:11
#4031525 - 11/04/14 01:30 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Plainsman]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 676
nibbio Offline
Member
nibbio  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 676
Italy
1990s flight simmer stuck in the future winkngrin


#4031575 - 11/04/14 02:48 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Plainsman]  
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 560
lokitexas Offline
Member
lokitexas  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 560
San Antonio, TX.
Originally Posted By: Plainsman


I've never heard of HSFX or DCG? Are they for IL2 1946? Where do I get them?


For DCG http://www.lowengrin.com/news.php

For HSFX + every other mod http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?board=188.0

Hope that helps.

#4031745 - 11/04/14 08:45 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Plainsman]  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,712
Dart Offline
Measured in Llamathrusts
Dart  Offline
Measured in Llamathrusts
Lifer

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,712
Alabaster, AL USA
Since the XP server is down and all it lets me do in the Campaign is fly from one waypoint to another (air start, super simple difficulty where all I'm controlling is the throttle) over and over and over again with no other options to advance to another mission, the sim is going into time out for a month.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#4031969 - 11/05/14 10:12 AM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Plainsman]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 763
WhoCares Offline
Member
WhoCares  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 763
XP is working again, or at least was working yesterday evening. If the same problem pops up you might consider to simply fly different missions in different planes. And if the current state of the campaign just allows you to fly from one airfield, then you might just as well go back to a previous stage of the campaign.

#4032169 - 11/05/14 05:54 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Plainsman]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,743
HeinKill Offline
Senior Member
HeinKill  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,743
Cloud based
I havent been back to the Game for nearly two weeks first due to work RL stuff, since then due to the XP thing.

Then I realised, wait, you arent playing it until they fix the XP thing? Is that really the only reason to play the BoS campaign? So that you can unlock weapons and skins for your IL2?

What about exploring what happens in the campaign storyline? (Nup, all that will happen is that the frontline moves three more times, and new airfields open up which all look the same, same briefings every time with no life in them, flying over the same boring small white map where everything except Stalingrad looks the same, and even Stalingrad always looks the same).

What about your IL2 pilot and seeing how long he can survive in a dead is dead type scenario? (Cant give him a name, he gets no realistic medals, no squadron or wingmen to keep track of, no campaign events happen to him. Don't care about him really.)

What about creating your own storyline about a fictional pilot in a fictional squadron? (Tried that, starting writing a campaign AAR - http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4022463/Mostovskoy_goes_to_war:_BoS_ca#Post4022463 - , lost momentum after 4 missions because every darn mission is the same, so there is nothing new to write about, and I have a pretty good imagination!)

What about the fact that there are ten aircraft and you can fly any of them at any point in the campaign? Or fly for both sides? (Destroys immersion to hop from one cockpit to another, fighter to bomber to ground attack, let alone fly from side to side.)

So it turns out the only thing keeping me coming back to the campaign really was the XP grinding, and that just isn't enough!

Sincerely hope some talented third party mission builder gets a hold of this game and makes a DCG or scripted campaign, otherwise I fear that as an SP fan, I've already checked out.

I realise wholesale changes are not going to happen so small things that might make a difference to me:

- get rid of the XP system and just give me the unlocks
- improve the map so it isnt so boring, eg seasons (expand the timeframe). I realise for this they would need to make animated water but RoF has it.
- improve the briefings to include some historical colour, photos, historical references
- limit certain units to the airfields they really flew out of and give them identifiers and historical skins so you can at least role play a unit
- instead of 5 'snapshots' as chapters of the battle, include more chapters, each representing a smaller time period and include much more historical background on it. I dont need expensive CGI cutscenes, just more context and content.
- more mission variety and target types

All of that should be possible within current game design limits.

H



[Linked Image]
#4032211 - 11/05/14 07:55 PM Re: How Good is the Single-Player Mode? [Re: Plainsman]  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,712
Dart Offline
Measured in Llamathrusts
Dart  Offline
Measured in Llamathrusts
Lifer

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,712
Alabaster, AL USA
Quote:
Then I realised, wait, you arent playing it until they fix the XP thing? Is that really the only reason to play the BoS campaign? So that you can unlock weapons and skins for your IL2?

What about exploring what happens in the campaign storyline? (Nup, all that will happen is that the frontline moves three more times, and new airfields open up which all look the same, same briefings every time with no life in them, flying over the same boring small white map where everything except Stalingrad looks the same, and even Stalingrad always looks the same).


I'm telling you that it won't advance beyond the first tutorial mission of the campaign.

I don't really care about the whole XP thing. I'd like to play the darned campaign. Unfortunately, due to the XP servers being down it won't acknowledge that I've flown the first mission so I can't move onto the next.

And I'd like to have some experience in the sim under various mission encounters before diving into multiplayer.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  CyBerkut, RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0