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#4026529 - 10/24/14 11:47 AM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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Originally Posted By: Charlie_SB
This image was shown by the Swedish armed forces today and show an observation from today before lunch. The image is too small to actually see much but hopefully a full size image will be released later.



-C-



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#4026701 - 10/24/14 04:31 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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Good one! He is still almost too small to notice though.

-C-


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#4026788 - 10/24/14 07:14 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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Wasn't it the Congo where the Swedish Air Force bombed a hospital? Ahead of their time those chaps ;-)

#4026862 - 10/24/14 09:48 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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I kind of doubt the Swedish Navy would drop depth charges even they located a nuclear powered Russian submarine in their waters. Not only might it kill the entire Russian crew on board but what about the nuclear reactor ?

I think a more likely scenario would be that the Swedes would tell the Russians "ok we found you now come up" and then they'd have dinner together on the Russian sub. After that they would shake hands and the Russians and their sub would go off into international waters as the sun was setting. That's how I would like it to end.


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4026887 - 10/24/14 10:50 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted By: Haggart
I kind of doubt the Swedish Navy would drop depth charges even they located a nuclear powered Russian submarine in their waters. Not only might it kill the entire Russian crew on board but what about the nuclear reactor ?


Not always clear but the potential submarine/s we are talking about the past week are not really "conventional" subs. It was much smaller minisubs, most likely used by Spetznatz or similar special forces.

I'm 100% sure it wasn't the first time nor the last time they probed us underwater. Past year RUS have flexed it's mil muscle several times (as part of their psychological warfare I belive). In 2013 they performed a excercise attack with two Tupolev Tu 22 (IIRC) bombers (escorted by four Su-27) running in over international air space, one bomber headed in direction of the capital city and the other headed for big navalbase in SE Sweden. They broke off before Swedish air space but to me the message was clear...

And just a few weeks ago a RUS Su-27 flew up close - and I mean close - besides a Swedish non armed mil recon plane flying over international water and flashed all missiles toward the crew/cameras (lovely plane btw)...



Pic taken from Swedish article here...

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/ryska-jaktplan-allt-mer-nargangna/

/KC


>> It's all about teamwork! <<
#4026901 - 10/24/14 11:14 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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KeyCat..."Past year RUS have flexed it's mil muscle several times (as part of their psychological warfare I belive)"

lol psychological warfare ...and that lol isn't directed at what you said ..it's directed at Putin ....cause what you say is likely true. Problem is Putin's "psychology" is still mired in the Cold War Era. A part of him will always be a relic of his KGB past and the days of the "Iron Curtain".

When that is taken into account his psychological warfare game becomes more predictable and frankly should be less intimidating


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4027045 - 10/25/14 11:08 AM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted By: Haggart
I kind of doubt the Swedish Navy would drop depth charges even they located a nuclear powered Russian submarine in their waters. Not only might it kill the entire Russian crew on board but what about the nuclear reactor ?

I think a more likely scenario would be that the Swedes would tell the Russians "ok we found you now come up" and then they'd have dinner together on the Russian sub. After that they would shake hands and the Russians and their sub would go off into international waters as the sun was setting. That's how I would like it to end.


There are no nuclear powered subs in the baltic sea. The submarines in the baltic are smaller quiet diesel electric subs. A big boomer is certainly not going to be placed in the baltic, there is just no mission for it there. And it's also a little bit like putting a hippo in your bathtub, you will notice it's there. ahoy

One can only speculate about weapons employment but it has not really been an issue in the past so I doubt it would now.

-C-


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#4027047 - 10/25/14 11:15 AM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted By: Haggart
KeyCat..."Past year RUS have flexed it's mil muscle several times (as part of their psychological warfare I belive)"

lol psychological warfare ...and that lol isn't directed at what you said ..it's directed at Putin ....cause what you say is likely true. Problem is Putin's "psychology" is still mired in the Cold War Era. A part of him will always be a relic of his KGB past and the days of the "Iron Curtain".

When that is taken into account his psychological warfare game becomes more predictable and frankly should be less intimidating



It is not only Putin that is still mired in a Cold War mentality.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4027161 - 10/25/14 03:50 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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Boomers can barely submerge in the Baltic when trying to pass through the Danish belt. Between Tallinn and Estonia you get water depths of 700m+ ... but that isn't very helpful if you want to penetrate the coastal defenses, ir if you want to break out of that pond and into the North Sea, then the Atlantic.

#4027168 - 10/25/14 04:02 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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I wonder if the sub is still there, hidden and awaiting recovery later, or if they managed to get it out under its own power?

#4027477 - 10/26/14 12:42 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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Hi,
posted this in SubSim some time ago, about those intrusions into swedish waters.

The only one sub that was caught red-handed, of russian origin - was the W-137 called "Whiskey" on the rocks" by the press if i remember right, relating to the Nato designation of a russian "Whiskey" type sub, beached within swedish territorial waters.

This time, it may well be a russian sub, but back then all those incidents were most probably UK and US subs, trying to turn the swedish politics towards the west, against Russia, by imitating russian subs, repeatedly breaking swedish territorial waters and by this convinving the swedish government to keep towards the NATO probably becoming a member, and if keeping to neutrality at least have no negotiations with Russia.

And maybe i do not have to remind you, but 1987 swedish New Prime Minister Olof Palme was murdered on the streets of Stockholm.
Palme was fed up with the Submarine incidents and was planning to build up good relations with Russia on a nuclear free zone in the Baltic. The Russians were also very interested to improve the relations with neutral Sweden which could then act as buffer to NATO. Understandably, the Swedish/Russian relations had become quite frosty following the W-137 affairs.

But the swedish Navy felt betrayed. Also the NATO and the western allies were not happy. Three days before Palme's visit to Moscow in 1987, you could see six well known faces of high ranking Navy officers on the Front Pages of daily papers with the headline PALME IS A TRAITOR.

A TV reporter interviewed Palme and raised the question:

Have you any thoughts on why the officers in the Navy do not trust the Prime Minister?
Palme replied:
"I have had some thoughts if I could trust my officers and I came to the conclusion that that I can do so - which does not includes those 6 officers in the newspaper."

Two days later Mr Palme was shot dead - the murderer is still free despite a reward on 50 million SEK.

The Swedish Television recently released a program of Palme and the murder plot. It was aired in 3 parts and was extremely well done. The conclusion was that the murder was set up and organised by a number of ex officers, some of them later serving as police officers in Stockholm.
The "police trail" as it was called, was never followed, and Palme's death never clarified.

All smoke and mirrors, as said before the cold war mentality is still there, also within NATO.

#4027506 - 10/26/14 03:08 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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That's the biggest load of conspiracy nonsense I've seen in a while. Especially considering the fact that as early as the Eisenhower administration, there'd been a covert NATO guarantee that should Sweden be invaded by the WP, NATO would declare war for our sake. There's a very good reason the entire Swedish military since the start of the Cold War was built based on a NATO template, and that several of the many gaps that were left in our military equipment and capabilities were never addressed even when the defence budget could cover it because NATO support in case of war was counted on to fill those gaps.

#4027526 - 10/26/14 03:53 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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Correct. Sweden is and always has been a defacto NATO country.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52535.htm


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#4027567 - 10/26/14 06:18 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: scrim]  
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Originally Posted By: scrim
That's the biggest load of conspiracy nonsense I've seen in a while. ...


I know you won't read it, but just for completion

http://books.google.de/books?id=nuiQAgAA...der&f=false

http://www.leopoldreport.com/LRsajt89.html

http://www.whale.to/b/assassination8.html

#4027577 - 10/26/14 06:42 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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Pray tell good Sir, why NATO would be carrying out a black flag campaign to get us closer to NATO, when we'd in fact for decades been so close to them that we arranged and equipped our military like a regular NATO country and even intentionally let several dimensions of our military capabilities completely vanish as NATO was relied on to deal with those areas?

Or most importantly, why they would would be trying to trick us into believing that Soviet subs were violating our territorial waters when the discovery of S-363 proved to even the most uninterested common citizen that they actually were doing that for real?

#4027583 - 10/26/14 06:58 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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^ I hoped you can tell me that.
There were more than 12 reported (probably more) intrusions into swedish waters, one of it was indeed the W-137/S-363 Whiskey class SSK Diesel sub. The others ?

From: The Secret War Against Sweden: US and British Submarine Deception in the 1980s

pages 179 ff.:
http://books.google.de/books?id=nuiQAgAA...der&f=false

I do not say it could not have been a russian sub this time. I doubt it though, it fits too well in the current prpaganda and tensions, with Ukraine and Putin.

Last edited by Catfish; 10/26/14 07:01 PM.
#4027591 - 10/26/14 07:11 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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No, just no. I will not waste my time on frankly stupid conspiracy theories.

#4027830 - 10/27/14 12:44 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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Some people refuse to believe the truth when it's simple, because they think EVERYTHING must be complex. There's also the back-slapping "I'm so clever I know what many people don't" angle to boost their enthusiasm for them.




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#4027874 - 10/27/14 02:23 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Some people refuse to believe the truth when it's simple, because they think EVERYTHING must be complex. There's also the back-slapping "I'm so clever I know what many people don't" angle to boost their enthusiasm for them...


Roger that.
B.t.w. i said it still might have been a russian sub.
But is also has become an annoying stereotype to make Russia responsible for all hidden operations, regardless by what country.
Then, do not believe everything the media tell you.

Facts:
Mr. Palme was killed, apparently because of some political aspects.
There was one russian sub (speaking of evidence) beached, back then in the 80ies.
Sub intrusions into swedish waters have a long record, and most have been proved to be US and 'NATO' subs.
Some have been sea lions, no joke (but maybe russian ones, ok)
NATO does not like politicians of befriended countries, being friends with the russians.

If you rule out the most unlikely scenario, connect some dots and then think of who gets the most out of a situation, you are usually not far from what really happened.
Ok lets end this here.

#4027877 - 10/27/14 02:31 PM Re: Swedish armed forces in subhunt [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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The idea that many of them being Russian subs is "the most unlikely scenario" doesn't hold up.
It's only unlikely if you've already made your mind up that it's not them.



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