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#4010492 - 09/16/14 02:47 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: scrim]  
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Originally Posted By: MK_PL
By the way, I once heard that condition of F-22 stealth coatings becomes "critical" after 1,7 h of flight or so; it doesn't sound very optimistic, does it?


Originally Posted By: scrim
Entirely possible. The B-2 IIRC has had issues with its radar absorbent paint being stripped off if flying through even just rain clouds at one point. However, since the F-22 has been cancelled I doubt it'll be an issue, unless the same problem occurs with the F-35.


The F-22 hasn't been cancelled, only fewer than expected/planned were built due to budget constraints (instead of more than 600, "only" 195 were actually built).

The F-35 has a very different stealth coating "system" compared to all previous Stealth aircraft (F-22 included).
Instead of relying on radar absorbent paint which indeed has issues in terms of maintenance, the F-35 uses a rubber-style skin/coating which is not only much more resistant (than the radar absorbent paint) and therefore it lasts much longer but it's also much easier and cheaper to repair (in case the coating suffers some sort of a rupture or fracture).

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4010551 - 09/16/14 04:49 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted By: ricnunes

The F-35 has a very different stealth coating "system" compared to all previous Stealth aircraft (F-22 included).
Instead of relying on radar absorbent paint which indeed has issues in terms of maintenance, the F-35 uses a rubber-style skin/coating which is not only much more resistant (than the radar absorbent paint) and therefore it lasts much longer but it's also much easier and cheaper to repair (in case the coating suffers some sort of a rupture or fracture).


It sounds like F-117 coating...



Last edited by piston79; 09/16/14 04:51 PM.
#4010590 - 09/16/14 06:09 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
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It is interesting how US will counter Russia/China's "stealth" technology? yep

#4010645 - 09/16/14 07:37 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
It is interesting how US will counter Russia/China's "stealth" technology? yep


If the actual frontal RCS of Russian T-50 is in the range of 0,3-0,5 m^2, as has been declared, the U. S. doesn't need to worry a lot...

#4010702 - 09/16/14 10:17 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79


It sounds like F-117 coating...



Well certainly or most likely, it is not.

I don't know for sure what the F-117 coating is like or is made of but the F-35 rubber-like stealth coating is cutting edge technology which was never used or applied in previous Stealth aircraft (which includes the F-117) and this new F-35 rubber-like stealth coating is more durable and easier to maintain than previous Stealth Coatings.

In fact the F-35 more advanced stealth coating is starting to be applied to the F-22 as this article points out:
http://www.dailytech.com/F35+Stealth+Coatings+Applied+to+F22/article21321.htm

That article also mentions the advantages in terms of maintenance and durability that the F-35 coating has over the current F-22 coating which I suspect is probably similar to the one applied to the F-117.

#4011087 - 09/17/14 08:30 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
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Thank you all for sharing your knowledge. Interesting read.
I'll have to post links more often smile

#4014713 - 09/26/14 02:27 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
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Both the F-22 and F-35 are using gap-fillers, not necessarily any type of RAM paint (FYI, I've seen F-16's painted with RAM paint. It's not that expensive for some levels of stealthy).

Gap-fillers do exactly what they suggest: They fill the gaps in the panel lines etc, thus eliminating radar-reflecting/amplifying cavities on the aircraft surface.

Generally speaking, the aircraft shape + gap fillers form the modern stealth concept.

F-35 gap fillers are newer technology than those of the F-22, and they are being refitted to the F-22, IIRC. This reduces maintenance requirements.

Gap-fillers probably have to be replaced after maintenance (opening and closing of panels).

Last edited by GrayGhost; 09/26/14 02:29 PM.

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#4014793 - 09/26/14 05:44 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
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Remains of the F-117A vertical stabilizer in my hand...





Last edited by Hpasp; 09/26/14 05:52 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#4014798 - 09/26/14 05:48 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Remains of the F-117A vertical stabilizer in my hand...



Would you like to describe it with your own words?

#4014805 - 09/26/14 06:13 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Remains of the F-117A vertical stabilizer in my hand...



Would you like to describe it with your own words?


Extremely light and strong honeycomb structure.
The inner graphite side is like paper, the outer yellow part is like plastic or epoxy.

Each F117A plane had two sets of vertical stabilizers. One pair made of metal, one pair made of this structure.

During peacetime, only the metal pair were used, the plane could pull bigger G's during airshows, and had bigger RCS.
The wartime only, composite pair limited G's considerably, but had basically no RCS.
biggrin

Last edited by Hpasp; 09/26/14 06:38 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#4014813 - 09/26/14 06:33 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
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On pic i posted, they're talking about two types of "protecting cover" - black one - like rubber, the other one (red-yellow) is like cooper folio... Maybe it is related with the body cover/structure? What Col. Dani said about that?
hahaha

#4014817 - 09/26/14 06:46 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
On pic i posted, they're talking about two types of "protecting cover" - black one - like rubber, the other one (red-yellow) is like cooper folio... Maybe it is related with the body cover/structure? What Col. Dani said about that?
hahaha


Not sure about your sources rolleyes ...



... but here is the honeycomb I showed earlier.



Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#4014821 - 09/26/14 07:01 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
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This one is also a good shot...



... and the "other" participant biggrin .



Last edited by Hpasp; 09/26/14 07:07 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4014825 - 09/26/14 07:11 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
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According the serbian description below, the source is apparent... I think this is related to the surface layer only:


#4014831 - 09/26/14 07:29 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Both the F-22 and F-35 are using gap-fillers, not necessarily any type of RAM paint (FYI, I've seen F-16's painted with RAM paint. It's not that expensive for some levels of stealthy).

Gap-fillers do exactly what they suggest: They fill the gaps in the panel lines etc, thus eliminating radar-reflecting/amplifying cavities on the aircraft surface.

Generally speaking, the aircraft shape + gap fillers form the modern stealth concept.

F-35 gap fillers are newer technology than those of the F-22, and they are being refitted to the F-22, IIRC. This reduces maintenance requirements.

Gap-fillers probably have to be replaced after maintenance (opening and closing of panels).


According to everything that I read and been reading, Stealth planes don't use "gap-fillers" only has you mentioned but complete skins which covers complete surfaces, at least the F-35 does.
Actually Lockheed Martin claims (albeit being considered a "dubious" claim) that with time the surface material (the Stealth skin) will smooth out making the F-35 stealthier over time. Being this claim realistic or not, this I believe more than proves that the F-35 has indeed a Stealth Skin and not a Stealth "gap-filler" only.

Here's one link with this info:
http://www.wired.com/2012/11/f-35-gets-stealthier/

Besides, either the link above or the pictures posted by Hasp clearly shows that even older Stealth aircraft such as the F-117 had complete Stealth coating/skin which cover not only gaps but complete surfaces.

#4014844 - 09/26/14 08:11 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
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Stealth is NOT a SCAM.

What you can see in this picture...

A, All screws are painted over, visible only where the cover is damaged.
B, There is two type of cover used, a light gray, and a generic dark one covering it.
C, Epoxy is used generously.
D, Places where strong forces present, the epoxy-honeycomb structure is used.



Last edited by Hpasp; 09/26/14 09:41 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4014951 - 09/27/14 01:28 AM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted By: ricnunes
According to everything that I read and been reading, Stealth planes don't use "gap-fillers" only has you mentioned but complete skins which covers complete surfaces, at least the F-35 does.


You've been reading the wrong things then.

Quote:
Besides, either the link above or the pictures posted by Hasp clearly shows that even older Stealth aircraft such as the F-117 had complete Stealth coating/skin which cover not only gaps but complete surfaces.


Old news. All those aircraft use shape primarily, the F-117 needed a lot of RAM coating, the F-22 and F-35 undoubtedly use RAM-paint as well, as do other fighters today ... and they also use gap-fillers. The main stealth concept is shape, not paint. Paint's the icing.


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#4015596 - 09/28/14 05:56 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
According to everything that I read and been reading, Stealth planes don't use "gap-fillers" only has you mentioned but complete skins which covers complete surfaces, at least the F-35 does.


You've been reading the wrong things then.


Sure, and you always read and post the right things as usual... rolleyes

Also, since you're always the owner of the truth this surely must mean that the folks at Lockheed Martin are telling us the wrong things and therefore the Stealth coating that Lockheed Martin affirms that the F-35 has (which curiously is one of their "product") and which covers most of the aircraft either doesn't exist or it's almost useless! Whatever... rolleyes




Quote:
Quote:
Besides, either the link above or the pictures posted by Hasp clearly shows that even older Stealth aircraft such as the F-117 had complete Stealth coating/skin which cover not only gaps but complete surfaces.


Old news. All those aircraft use shape primarily, the F-117 needed a lot of RAM coating, the F-22 and F-35 undoubtedly use RAM-paint as well, as do other fighters today ... and they also use gap-fillers. The main stealth concept is shape, not paint. Paint's the icing.


Nobody here said otherwise! Of course aircraft shape is the primary "feature" of any Stealth aircraft, including the F-117 or any of the most advanced stealth fighters such as the F-35.
But coating still and always play an important part as well, and saying otherwise seems to be nave in one end or completely wrong on the other end.
Try flying a Stealth fighter aircraft such as the F-35 or the F-22 without any Stealth/RAM coating over enemy territory and you'll see how stealthy they will (not) become! Just read here (probably you'll find this info wrong as well, but hell I'll give it a shot):

http://globalaviationreport.com/2013/10/11/the-magic-of-stealth-its-more-than-just-shape/



One more interesting (probably wrong again according to Grayghost, I imagine) information about the F-35 stealth coating:

http://www.ri.cmu.edu/pub_files/2010/3/Seegmiller_SAE-2010_Precision_Robotic_Coating.pdf

http://articles.sae.org/7072/

In the last link above you can read among other things the following:

"The RAFS (a Robot which sprays the RAM coating over the F-35) applies a special radar absorbing material (RAM) coating over all surfaces of the fully assembled F-35 except for the horizontal and vertical tails and various small parts that are coated in a separate Robotic Component Finishing System."

I think that the information above CLEARLY states ABOVE any reasonable DOUBT that most of the F-35 surfaces, if not the entire F-35 surfaces are covered with RAM skin coating and not only some parts of the aircraft such as gaps.

#4395485 - 12/18/17 07:15 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
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"RESONANCESCATTER30

Deutsche Aerospace, Bremen anechoic chamber measurements of a faceted, metallized 1:10 scale model of an F-117 aircraft:
“The aircraft geometry was obtained from open literature and hence the target model does not take into account fine structure details and surface materials such as RAM, which are of less importance at VHF/UHF...

”“The scaled measurement results... show that the attempt to reduce the target’s RCS has been successful in the ±70º section around the nose-on aspect and for the frequency range above 400 MHz.High RCS values covering the whole frequency range occur when the direction of illumination is perpendicular to the front or back edges of the wings or other dominant structures of the fuselage. In the nose-on section, however, an increase in the RCS can be seen at VHF around 100 MHz [6 to10 dBm2] and UHF around 400 MHz [0 to 6 dBm2 , > 6 dBm2nose on] due to resonance effects. Hence, such stealth techniques can be efficient at high radar frequencies but are ineffective at VHF/UHF"

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Attached Files shemaF117obaranja.jpgf-117 model test.JPG
Last edited by piston79; 12/18/17 07:16 PM.
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