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#4010433 - 09/16/14 12:58 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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Entil'zha
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I'm not sure if I would call it a sandbox. Skyrim is a sandbox insofar that things happen around you without regard to the main story or your actions. You'll see werewolves attack a deer. Vampires attack a town and then get slaughtered by guards and townsfolk.

In my last playthrough, the armament woman at the entrance to Whiterun, whose name escapes me, the one whose father worked in Dragonreach, was killed in a vampire attack...just lying there dead afterwards. The next morning I went in and the guy behind the counter had dialogue for it, about how he was trying to carry on after her loss, which wasn't a scripted story event (because the previous time I played she never died) but random.

A sim with a handful of single missions and a couple of scripted campaigns that I have to either make my own missions or rely on others to make them and upload them for me is not even close to that.


Or you could say Skyrim is a sandbox with castles, shovels, rakes, and other implements all lying there premade for you. Our sims are an empty box with a bag of rocks that says "pulverize for sand" and a 2x4 with a sign that says "cut and shape into shovel or rake or whatever you want".




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#4010453 - 09/16/14 01:40 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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I guess I'm going to be somewhat contrarian, but I've found that most "immersion" devices in sims interfere with my sense of being there more than they add to it.

I like to make up my own backstory and narrative, and usually the stuff thrown in to draw me into the world fight against it. Or, worse, they become tiresome. Red Baron and RB3D quickly bored me with the same animations over and over again along with the predictable career advancements....not to say I didn't play the snot out of them, but I was glad they had a key to skip the animations.

My son and I play WoW, for example, and our characters both have these huge narratives on why they're adventurers and what motivates them - neither of which fit within the main storylines of the game. We pick and chose quests based on them and often ignore and re-write why we are doing the ones we go on and what their purpose is.

Just give me a cockpit in a well modeled aircraft, reasonable missions, decent AI and I'll do the rest, guys, when it comes to the story.

The best example of how I approach games is summed up by the Freeman's Mind narration on YouTube for HalfLife. Ross turns it upside down to where Gordon isn't a hero so much as a guy who just wants to get out of the facility and doesn't give a hoot about the written storyline.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

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#4010459 - 09/16/14 01:46 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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I might have my terms mixed. The developers of Skyrim, or GTA for that matter, have given me both a world and a story. I can choose to leave what I perceive as the script at anytime and then it becomes a sandbox (by my way of thinking). My 20 year affair with Flanker, Longbow, FC, DCS, IL2, and RoF were complete sandbox efforts. The only thread that connected one moment at the stick to the next was the one I made as I tinkered with mission making and self-improvement. The original Georgian Oil War for Black Shark was about as close as I could get to something of a game with any of those awesome sims. And on second thought Longbow had a pretty immersive feel to it--and a decent campaign to boot. Strictly talking singleplayer: TakeOn Helicopters was good. The ARMA series is great. And of course Falcon is still, after all these years, unmatched in replayabiity.

KSP is pure sandbox. But the concept is so new to me that, as with DCS years ago, I can accept the lack of story and just ride along the learning curve alone.

#4010461 - 09/16/14 02:00 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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I've noticed an interesting trend where it seems that many people who have been playing flight sims for a long time have significantly lost interest in flight sims in recent years. Is that mostly due to flight sims losing their "immersion" factor or is it mostly due to time constraints (ie not enough time to learn all the ins & outs of hardcore flight sims)?


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4010465 - 09/16/14 02:05 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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Dart,

I felt the same way until a few years ago. Then I changed somehow. Doing some personal flying again was a big factor I think. Anyway, I gave it a lot of thought and finally posed some ideas both here and on the RoF forum. Those ideas were so roundly ridiculed that I realized that sims had not drifted from the needs of user but rather that [b]I[/b] had drifted away from sims. They now feel like work, not play. The exception was the rare moments where I had a chance to fly with key members of the IRFC. I also have had some enjoyable evenings with the SimHQ crowd in ARMA. But with so little practice I just drowned in my own ineptitude and took a long break. Back to flight sims: as you know, so much about flying is NOT the flying. The flying part is enjoyable because of all those other non-flying elements that need to take place in order to make a successful flight. It would be distracting to try to "simulate" all those little details. But without at least something to aid in both my sense of mission and my suspension of disbelief, all I see are pixels on a screen.

#4010469 - 09/16/14 02:12 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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PanzerMayer, I've wondered the same thing. I've been flying intensely and without pause since I was 16. During much of that time I was a very regular flight sim user. My theories about why I've lost interest (some of which are posted above) are not consistent. It seems many of us are quite older than the typical gamer. Maybe age and competing interests have taken some of the joy out of shacking T-80's.

#4010472 - 09/16/14 02:18 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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Panzer,for me it IS immersion. I have all the time in the world to play and learn any game at the moment but the thought of going back to DCS...well it's not going to happen. Even more so because I gave all my modules away to SimHQ'ers.

Surely us 'older simmers' have more time on our hands? Kids grown up,retired etc etc....


EV's are the Devils matchbox.
#4010528 - 09/16/14 03:56 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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Entil'zha
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Perhaps simmers have just become jaded. While other genres have advanced in multiple fronts, flight sims have tended to advance in only two areas:
Realism in systems/flight modeling
Graphics (granted behind many other games, but still better than older sims)

In almost every other area flight sims are considered a success if they don't SCREW UP the other areas worse than their predecessors, let alone do better.

Campaigns? Almost everyone agrees modern sims' campaigns are not as good as the legacy ones, scripted or not.

AI? Twenty years and whatever is going on behind the scenes in the code, to the simmer the appearance is of stasis. EAW had the split S of doom. ROF has the dive for the deck. Most have the "attack till you die" mentality, little self-preservation evident, and then an RTB trigger at which time they break off and ignore you.

Atmosphere/ambience? Definite regression there. Just compare EAW and Il-2, separated by two years but Il-2 was devoid of any of it. Later sims like ROF have come back a bit, but still not as far as EAW which wasn't even a shining star then.

Naval ops? Pacific Fighters' and Flanker 2's was a pale shadow of what we had in 90s sims. Now we have less.

MP? Remember when sims had MP campaigns? Not just a single mission that would restart or move on to another, but an actual campaign? Falcon 3 had it in 1991. The last I can recall was Il-2:1946 with it in 2006. It's 2014--ROF? No. DCS? No. BoS? I doubt it will. frown
All MP is now is dogfight missions with AI units present and varying degrees of triggers.


And why? Because making the graphics and the realistic systems consumes 95% of developers' resources now!




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4010534 - 09/16/14 04:03 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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+1 Jedi.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4010550 - 09/16/14 04:48 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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apelles Offline
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Yes, the Jedi has right.

Back in the days i only dreaming such graphical enviroment, but i don' imagine all else is degraded.

No more sleepless nights because campaign missions.

Last edited by apelles; 09/16/14 04:48 PM.
#4010553 - 09/16/14 04:53 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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Azshal Offline
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Immersion won't hit its peak (for me) until the release a napping simulator.

I always fall asleep at my computer desk when I finally get the ability to play, these days biggrin

#4010558 - 09/16/14 05:01 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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apelles Offline
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Actually it's possible thet's because the developers has no need things like immersion? They don't like the tiny details when they play the sim?
Or they don't play the sim? It's mostly a contracted work for military?

Or a new generation combat sim flyers grow up, who more like the air warrior like mp combat? Or this is an exaggeration?

#4010565 - 09/16/14 05:14 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: apelles]  
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Originally Posted By: apelles
Actually it's possible thet's because the developers has no need things like immersion? They don't like the tiny details when they play the sim?


I think it's possible it could be a cultural thing. All hardcore/high fidelity PC flight sims now are made by Russian developers so it could just simply be a case of "you must think in Russian" in order to feel like you are not losing any immersion.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4010573 - 09/16/14 05:31 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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One can't compare immersion between single and multi-player; they're totally different animals.

No AI will shriek like a little girl when penned down in a tiny creek bed, hovering three feet off the gravel in a Ka-50, because a convoy including nasty AAA missiles showed up. Well, maybe not shriek like a little girl, but in a way that had Chief and Einstein laughing out loud through the headset.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#4010592 - 09/16/14 06:13 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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I don't know about that. Maybe in an all SimHQ game, but in general, it's the people that screw it all up. Decent AI is always in character, even if not always very bright. AI doesn't try to break the game to get an advantage or put winning ahead of playing in the spirit of the game. Never mind some idiot running his mouth or typing anything he can into the chat to get a rise out of someone.
Normally, I'd prefer playing co-op to MP for that reason. People, in general, suck.


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#4010598 - 09/16/14 06:19 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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Immersion is in the mind of the beholder.

Watching bullet holes appear in the thin skin of my failing B-17 and seeing the crew hurt and killed during an overwhelming 109 attack in B-17 II The Mighty 8th.

Taking forever to sneak up on a compound of bad guys and getting close enough to take most of them out in the original Far Cry.

Walking behind Vilga in Skyrim when she blurts out "I know what you are doing, you are looking at my behind, aren't you."

Starting the A2A B-17 by the book in FSX - and even better, starting the A2A B-377 Stratocruiser in FSX and rumbling down the runway with the cockpit shaking and the sound of those radials screaming.

Just driving around and seeing the wonderful 1930's city and cars in Mafia II, now that is atmosphere.

Sweating my ass off while trying to keep alive in Janes's WWII Fighters online flying against real WWII pilots around the world many years ago.

You get the idea, immersion is where you find it. It can last for a second or it can go on for hours. It is there, just look for it.


"A time when America was great,,when the chrome was thick and the women were straight" - Micheal Savage

"If you really want to experience flight in this life then you have to strap a DC-3 to your ass." - Buffalo Joe McBryan President & Captain Buffalo Airways
#4010954 - 09/17/14 02:58 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
I've noticed an interesting trend where it seems that many people who have been playing flight sims for a long time have significantly lost interest in flight sims in recent years. Is that mostly due to flight sims losing their "immersion" factor or is it mostly due to time constraints (ie not enough time to learn all the ins & outs of hardcore flight sims)?


I'm one of them. I currently have no flight sims on my computer (DCS and even FSX are gone). Now, some of that is that I'm busy and I fly in real life, so puttering around the pattern in FSX just isn't as exciting as it used to be and DCS is hopelessly stale.

But I still find myself checking these forums every day, hoping something new will catch my eye. Not just with flight sims but FPSs as well. The desire is still there.

To this point the only thing that has me interested is the concept of Star Citizen, again because of it's promised immersion, but I'm pretty jaded about their fund raising and it doesn't look like it'll be delivered any time soon.

As much as I wish someone would make another Strike Commander or Operation Flashpoint, i.e. immersive and engaging single player simulations, I'm not counting on it.

#4010963 - 09/17/14 03:26 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted By: Pooch
B-17: The Mighty Eighth is a sim that could be rich with WW2 atmosphere if they would redo it. A well modelled bomber base. Briefings. A jeep ride out to your bomber. Andrew Sisters playing on somebody's radio. Bringing back a badly damaged Fort. Patching up wounded crew members. More than just a B-17 flight sim. A B-17 experience.
I remember B17II being dismissed by a lot of people at the time for being "too much of an RPG-game". I enjoyed that aspect a lot. In many ways B17II was more like Silent Hunter than a flightsim (probably also because one couldn't see a thing out of the B17's cockpit :D).


Undercarriage lever a bit sticky was it, Sir?
#4010966 - 09/17/14 03:36 PM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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Entil'zha
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The original B17 was like that as well. You could sit in any of the seats and fly, bomb, or gun, but you could also go out to the hand-painted cutaway view where you could move crew around to heal or take over positions (like making the bombardier a gunner after the bomb run because one of the gunners is hurt).

Many a wounded crewmember would pass out in that...



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4011209 - 09/18/14 01:35 AM Re: Immersion In Gaming [Re: Pooch]  
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"Too much of an RPG." Isn't that ridiculous? They're all RPG's. When I'm flying the DCS F-86 I'm playing the part of a Korean War Sabre pilot.
The point is how well the game helps you do this. I suppose I could decorate the room with 1950's era posters and play recordings of Kimpo tower giving me takeoff instructions. But I wish the game would do that for me.


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

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